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Old
04-01-2010, 06:35 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
what the hell kind of comparison is that? might as well be comparing horses and ostriches. Youre comparing a role player pugilist who plays what, 4-6 minutes a night, to a (i laughingly call him) top 6 defenseman...thats just a ridiculous comparison.
No, I'm comparing two NHL players who were NY Rangers. I didn't think it was unclear but I'll try and make it clearer.

Player A was a decent Top 4 dman in the NHL for a goodly amount of time, yet he is a constant target of derision here (once again in this thread), because he didn't hit.

Player B was incapable of skating, throwing a check, scoring a goal, dishing an assist or playing more than a few minutes a night but many here believe he was an important part of the club, because he boxed other boxers.

You really don't understand that criticizing a player who is much better than a player whom is praised is illogical behavior?

Of course you do, but you continue to ridicule the better player of the two. Your stance would have us believe that you believe Colton Orr was a better NHL player than Malik. If that's your belief, then we clearly disagree.

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04-01-2010, 07:29 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
what the hell kind of comparison is that? might as well be comparing horses and ostriches. Youre comparing a role player pugilist who plays what, 4-6 minutes a night, to a (i laughingly call him) top 6 defenseman...thats just a ridiculous comparison.
Orr did his job 100 times better than Malik did. Simple as that.

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04-01-2010, 07:30 PM
  #53
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hes was good well he was here until stupid fans started to pick on him for a few mistakes and ruined his career here. Its unfortunate when you get morons who boo players when they dont understand anything about what makes a good D men. It also shows the hockey IQ of fans when they boo D 95% of the time, and our D has been our better aspect with the goalie in the past 5 years and are forwards is what has struggled. Look at Malik plus minus in his career if you need justification.

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04-01-2010, 09:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by satrabyk View Post
hes was good well he was here until stupid fans started to pick on him for a few mistakes and ruined his career here. Its unfortunate when you get morons who boo players when they dont understand anything about what makes a good D men. It also shows the hockey IQ of fans when they boo D 95% of the time, and our D has been our better aspect with the goalie in the past 5 years and are forwards is what has struggled. Look at Malik plus minus in his career if you need justification.

Malik never recovered from His playoff gafe that cost us the 07' series.

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04-01-2010, 11:06 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
Malik never recovered from His playoff gafe that cost us the 07' series.


Puck on the boards, pass through his legs into the high slot, Buffalo slap shot, Drury(?) deflection = Game 2... and just for that:


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04-02-2010, 12:27 AM
  #56
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its way to difficult to compare orr to malik the were two completely different players

and your hate for orr is a little unfounded. the guy was no jagr or even lisin for that matter but he did his job perfectly

the rangers players even admitted to feeling better when he was in the lineup

he wasnt there to score he was there to protect and in recent memory i cant think of anyone who really did as well as orr

would gladly take him over shelley or brash

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04-02-2010, 06:41 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
its way to difficult to compare orr to malik the were two completely different players

and your hate for orr is a little unfounded. the guy was no jagr or even lisin for that matter but he did his job perfectly

the rangers players even admitted to feeling better when he was in the lineup

he wasnt there to score he was there to protect and in recent memory i cant think of anyone who really did as well as orr

would gladly take him over shelley or brash
Orr didn't protect anyone. Not a soul. This notion that guys who skate onto the ice a couple of shifts a game against other goons and box, is somehow done to protect the rest of team, is pure nonsense.

At one time, a long time ago, it was indeed a truism. If you took liberty with a skill player you were made to pay for it and guys like Orr were sent out to take care of it.

Two differences, though:

1. The players back then could also take regular shifts and be effective hockey players (See Bob Probert, Kocur etc.,)

2. In today's game, guys like Orr can do nothing else on the ice. He is useless otherwise and so are the bulk of his counterparts. They are merely a sideshow to entertain the fans. There is no longer a function associated with them. They are not deterrents, even to the smallest degree. I enjoy watching their bouts but they have zero to do with the outcomes of the games. They are like commercials on television.

Back to the main point I made. Malik, a real honest-to-goodness hockey player, with skills that dwarf those of a Colton Orr, is goofed on, while Orr, a player with no skills other than punching (which helps a team, not even one iota), "did his job perfectly".

I can see saying that you get a thrill out of a goon but telling me he is valuable, no way. If they had value, they would be paid accordingly. The fact that they aren't proves they are interchangeable, and therefore of no real value.

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04-02-2010, 11:22 AM
  #58
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And Colton Orr has what to do with Marek Malik???

If you're upset with the fans liking Orr and not Malik, your gripe is with the fans, not the players....

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04-02-2010, 01:49 PM
  #59
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I hear you, Chosen.

Malik was the whipping boy, plain and simple. He followed Tom Poti, and preceded Rozsival and Redden in that role.

For those that can get beyond the lack of hitting (especially for a big man) and the occasional bonehead plays, they'll see that he was a top pair defenseman, and a darn good one for the team. Remember when Sather praised Redden as one of the best first passers in the game? Well, Malik was very good at that also.

Before the arguments come forward about how he played with Jagr, and yadda yadda, let me just state that he put up the same performance in Vancouver, and in Carolina before that. In fact, for most of his career he was on winning teams.

On the Orr v. Malik debate, if you're stating that Orr did his job better than Marek, well, that's just wrong. What was Malik's job? Don't get scored on and get the puck to your offensive players. Take a look at the +/- stats, and then tell me that he didn't do his job. Granted, the +/- is a flawed statistic, but is the only observable unit of measure of his performance in his role. And once you hit +20 and above, the margin for error has pretty much been accounted for. His job was NOT to be a crease clearing physical defender. He never was pre-NYR, so why fans expected him to be that when he signed is beyond me. Probably just a factor of them seeing a big bodied, low scoring defenseman and expecting another Beuk.

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04-02-2010, 04:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
No, I'm comparing two NHL players who were NY Rangers. I didn't think it was unclear but I'll try and make it clearer.

Player A was a decent Top 4 dman in the NHL for a goodly amount of time, yet he is a constant target of derision here (once again in this thread), because he didn't hit.

Player B was incapable of skating, throwing a check, scoring a goal, dishing an assist or playing more than a few minutes a night but many here believe he was an important part of the club, because he boxed other boxers.

You really don't understand that criticizing a player who is much better than a player whom is praised is illogical behavior?

Of course you do, but you continue to ridicule the better player of the two. Your stance would have us believe that you believe Colton Orr was a better NHL player than Malik. If that's your belief, then we clearly disagree.
But you arent comparing to players doing the same job. For their ROLES Colton Orr>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marek Malik

sure, if you had a 1 on 1 game of pond hockey, Malik would probably win, but that's not what the comparison is. The comparison is who does their job better. Colton Orr is an elite fighter, and a good locker room guy.

Marek Malik was an absolutely atrocious defenseman the final 2 years of his contract, was directly responsible for god knows how many goals in that Buffalo series, and refused to shake Tom Renneys hand, and got into fights with other teammates.

So, if the question is who has the better skill set, sure, Marek Malik has more talent than Colton Orr. But thats a stupid thing to say, that's like saying a BMWZ3 is faster than a Cadillac Escalade. Sure, it is, but the Escalada can carry more people, is more luxurious for passengers, has more options, etc. Its a poor comparison.

You want to compare Poti to Malik, be my guest, that would be a more viable comparison, and, imho Poti was a better player than Malik.

My problem was never Maliks softness. Softness doesnt bother me. Im a huge fan of Lidstrom, hes a pretty damn soft defenseman.

My problem with Malik was what was between his ears. He made 100 times more unbelievably stupid mistakes than any other defenseman on our team.

Every defenseman makes mistakes, but the ones that are the result of just being an idiot, like this one in the thread for example, well, those anger me more than anything. Which is why I am such an ardent defender of Rozsival, when he screws up, its usually not because of stupidity, but a misread. misreads are very different than being a frikkin idiot and trying to pass through 4 people for a home run pass only to give up a goal, as Malik had happened to him quite often.

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04-02-2010, 04:12 PM
  #61
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I hear you, Chosen.

Malik was the whipping boy, plain and simple. He followed Tom Poti, and preceded Rozsival and Redden in that role.

For those that can get beyond the lack of hitting (especially for a big man) and the occasional bonehead plays, they'll see that he was a top pair defenseman, and a darn good one for the team.
No no and NO!!!

Being a top pair defenseman on a team with no defensive depth does not make you a top pair defenseman in the NHL... Just in the same way that Sean Avery is not a top 6 forward even though he'll play on our top 2 lines at times because we have little offensive depth....

Redden can't pass for **** out of the zone and just because Sather made that comment before he was signed that doesn't make it valid now that Redden's game/career has drastically declined even before his first game as a Ranger... Malik was not an above average passer either and has trouble clearing the puck out of his zone at times.... Making short and obvious passes doesn't make you good outlet passer either, it's expected of defensemen who play at the NHL level.... Look at the way MDZ passes the puck, THAT'S what you call above average puck moving / outlet passing... Look at the way Staal moves the puck in the defensive zone under pressure in traffic, that's also above average.... Malik's puck moving never came close....

If Malik was a top pair defensemen in this league and a "darn good one" at that, he would still be playing in the league right now, wouldn't he?.... Look at what he's done since playing for the Rangers, a measly 44 games late in the season with Tampa Bay and now he's back in Europe.... He was not a top pairing defenseman in this league prior to signing with the Rangers....

Maybe the guy did his best while with the Rangers, and that's respectable on his part, but in the overall scheme of things, he is not an above average defensemen by any means..... He's a bottom pairing defenseman on any team with defensive depth....

Lack of depth in any position forces players to play above their normal roles than they normally would on teams with depth and that's exactly what you saw happen with the Rangers post-lock out... Prucha & Dawes are not top 6 forwards, Girardi is not a top pairing defenseman, etc....


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Old
04-02-2010, 04:23 PM
  #62
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Inferno I've always though Rozsival had the physical tools/skills to be an effective defensemen in this league but what he was lacking is the intelligence upstairs.... IMHO he does make boneheaded plays and his problem is not his skills but his ability to think and process the game under duress.... It's why he struggles to handle the puck at the point in the offensive zone, he can't think/react fast enough based on how the play is developing.... He doesn't know when to shoot the puck, when to fake the shot, hesitates to pass the puck in traffic, etc....

Remember a few games ago where he skated directly into the referee with the puck and took him out from a good 4-5 feet away? That was a fore-head slapper for me....


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04-02-2010, 05:37 PM
  #63
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And Colton Orr has what to do with Marek Malik???

If you're upset with the fans liking Orr and not Malik, your gripe is with the fans, not the players....
Fans are the ones posting here, not players.

I thought it was understood that my gripe is with the fans. I have no problem with Orr, at all. I was pointing out the illogical reasoning and double-standards of the fans.

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04-02-2010, 05:45 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
But you arent comparing to players doing the same job. For their ROLES Colton Orr>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marek Malik

sure, if you had a 1 on 1 game of pond hockey, Malik would probably win, but that's not what the comparison is. The comparison is who does their job better. Colton Orr is an elite fighter, and a good locker room guy.

Marek Malik was an absolutely atrocious defenseman the final 2 years of his contract, was directly responsible for god knows how many goals in that Buffalo series, and refused to shake Tom Renneys hand, and got into fights with other teammates.

So, if the question is who has the better skill set, sure, Marek Malik has more talent than Colton Orr. But thats a stupid thing to say, that's like saying a BMWZ3 is faster than a Cadillac Escalade. Sure, it is, but the Escalada can carry more people, is more luxurious for passengers, has more options, etc. Its a poor comparison.

You want to compare Poti to Malik, be my guest, that would be a more viable comparison, and, imho Poti was a better player than Malik.

My problem was never Maliks softness. Softness doesnt bother me. Im a huge fan of Lidstrom, hes a pretty damn soft defenseman.

My problem with Malik was what was between his ears. He made 100 times more unbelievably stupid mistakes than any other defenseman on our team.

Every defenseman makes mistakes, but the ones that are the result of just being an idiot, like this one in the thread for example, well, those anger me more than anything. Which is why I am such an ardent defender of Rozsival, when he screws up, its usually not because of stupidity, but a misread. misreads are very different than being a frikkin idiot and trying to pass through 4 people for a home run pass only to give up a goal, as Malik had happened to him quite often.
Answers, please:

If Orr is so good at his job, why isn't he paid more and why doesn't he remain with a team for a long time?

Why don't the "best" goons stay on their team?

I'll help out: It's because winning fights doesn't help a team. If you can offer proof that I am wrong, please present it.

I find so many faults with your other logic that it's silly to go on, but calling Lidstrom soft is as silly an assessment of a player that I may have ever read and points out how the two of us define the sport entirely differently.

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04-02-2010, 06:05 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Answers, please:

If Orr is so good at his job, why isn't he paid more and why doesn't he remain with a team for a long time?

Why don't the "best" goons stay on their team?

I'll help out: It's because winning fights doesn't help a team. If you can offer proof that I am wrong, please present it.

I find so many faults with your other logic that it's silly to go on, but calling Lidstrom soft is as silly an assessment of a player that I may have ever read and points out how the two of us define the sport entirely differently.
do a comparison between salary, and penalty minutes due to fights...i bet you orr is one of the top 10 paid athletes for pure fighters....probably top 5.

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04-02-2010, 06:20 PM
  #66
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do a comparison between salary, and penalty minutes due to fights...i bet you orr is one of the top 10 paid athletes for pure fighters....probably top 5.
We are talking two different languages. You are comparing the salary of Orr to other goons based on a formula you've devised. Again, for the third time, goons are paid less than all other players because they are worth less and easier to replace. Dispute that.

If Orr was worth more than Malik, he would have earned more than Malik, not a paltry percentage of what Malik earned. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Calling Lidstrom soft is still pretty funny stuff, though.

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04-02-2010, 06:37 PM
  #67
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Fans are the ones posting here, not players.

I thought it was understood that my gripe is with the fans. I have no problem with Orr, at all. I was pointing out the illogical reasoning and double-standards of the fans.
Well you can't expect fans to hold players with different roles and salaries to the same standards.... Orr was a 4th liner seeing minimal ice time, making near league minimum and salary, and was above average at fighting which was the only reason he was on this roster... In the fans eyes, he's doing his job for what's asked of him... No one is going to harp on a 4th line fighter for not having more offensive skills.... Same situation applies to Redden... If he was making $2 mil a season people would hardly waste their energy lambasting him....

I have no issues with Malik as a player, he is what he is and I'm sure he tried to play his best hockey... I just gripes with how some fans evaluate his play... I think lack of defensive depth on this team post lock out has set many peoples standards dangerously low... I've routinely see people characterize players' performances after certain games as "solid" when I firmly believed the players were just average. To each his own but many times in the past couple seasons a player would get credited by fans for playing a good game when really it was just an improvement on past poor play and overall, not that good...

Watching some other teams around the league they have multiple defensemen who play at a level we haven't been accustomed to in years.... I know if their fans were asked to evaluate some of our defensemen in the past they would probably get fairly lower evaluations than some fans would think...

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04-02-2010, 10:31 PM
  #68
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No no and NO!!!

Being a top pair defenseman on a team with no defensive depth does not make you a top pair defenseman in the NHL... Just in the same way that Sean Avery is not a top 6 forward even though he'll play on our top 2 lines at times because we have little offensive depth....

Redden can't pass for **** out of the zone and just because Sather made that comment before he was signed that doesn't make it valid now that Redden's game/career has drastically declined even before his first game as a Ranger... Malik was not an above average passer either and has trouble clearing the puck out of his zone at times.... Making short and obvious passes doesn't make you good outlet passer either, it's expected of defensemen who play at the NHL level.... Look at the way MDZ passes the puck, THAT'S what you call above average puck moving / outlet passing... Look at the way Staal moves the puck in the defensive zone under pressure in traffic, that's also above average.... Malik's puck moving never came close....

If Malik was a top pair defensemen in this league and a "darn good one" at that, he would still be playing in the league right now, wouldn't he?.... Look at what he's done since playing for the Rangers, a measly 44 games late in the season with Tampa Bay and now he's back in Europe.... He was not a top pairing defenseman in this league prior to signing with the Rangers....

Maybe the guy did his best while with the Rangers, and that's respectable on his part, but in the overall scheme of things, he is not an above average defensemen by any means..... He's a bottom pairing defenseman on any team with defensive depth....

Lack of depth in any position forces players to play above their normal roles than they normally would on teams with depth and that's exactly what you saw happen with the Rangers post-lock out... Prucha & Dawes are not top 6 forwards, Girardi is not a top pairing defenseman, etc....
At no point in my post did I say that Malik was a top pairing defenseman.

What I am saying is that he is not nearly the abomination people make him out to be. The fact that he had to serve as a top pairing on this team and still came away with such a positive net rating is proof of that...not only in NY, but in other cities as well.

As for the passing, well, that's another debate for another time. DZ throws the home run pass exceptionally well, and he has a gift for that. Similar to football though, it's one thing to hit the deep ball and another to hit a guy though the middle in stride. Then again, if DZ had someone like Nylander who could so easily transport the puck from zone to zone, perhaps the home run pass wouldn't be as likely or needed.

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04-02-2010, 10:51 PM
  #69
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He got an assist to the game-winner (Jeff Toms) later in the game.


PUTTY!!

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04-03-2010, 08:17 AM
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Everyone takes this debate to the same tired place: he's hated because he's big and doesn't hit. Its such a cop out for the defenders. These guys are hated because they are slow, wave their stick around and miss poke checks, and they turn it over way too much. Malik had that 'deer in headlights' reflex where he would freeze when pressure, making that all too familiar backhanded pass to his partner... wow, you know what, just like the one in this video. Malik would get burned time and time again looking foolish and statuesque. Roszival can't keep it in the zone, hesitates time and time again, and get's burned to the outside. Poti got burned to the outside desperately waving his stick and missing. Couldn't carry the puck, couldn't shoot and couldn't pass. Maybe the expectations of replacing Leech were unfair for Poti's offense but he didn't make up for anything with defense.

Staal doesn't hit that much either, but he isn't bashed. Of course the apologists make up another conspiracy theory that he's homegrown so he gets excused. It has nothing to do with his solid positioning, successful poke checking and clean passing. Girardi is homegrown and persona non gratta this season. Tyutin was ripped in his last season here. Malik sucked in the NHL after his first season here. That's why he didn't get a contract after us until late into the off season, for 1 year. That's why he didn't get another one after that. That's why he's playing in Germany now. That's why he is making the same blunders in a third rate league. It's just a guess, but i'm pretty sure there weren't Ranger fans booing Malik in that video, some how forcing him into making that bad pass.

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04-03-2010, 03:18 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Everyone takes this debate to the same tired place: he's hated because he's big and doesn't hit. Its such a cop out for the defenders. These guys are hated because they are slow, wave their stick around and miss poke checks, and they turn it over way too much. Malik had that 'deer in headlights' reflex where he would freeze when pressure, making that all too familiar backhanded pass to his partner... wow, you know what, just like the one in this video. Malik would get burned time and time again looking foolish and statuesque.
Malik had very low scoring stats, yet was on the ice when his team scored 133 more times than when the opposing team scored.

Some questions:

1. How is that number possible if what you say is correct?

2. How on Earth did such an absolute stiff even make it to the NHL?

3. Why did all of his coaches constantly throw him out there at crunch time?

4. Do you know the game better than the GMs who acquired him and the coaches that played him?


If you're saying that he wasn't hated because of his lack of physical game, I'll say that you never attended a single game in which he played, because it was an ongoing chorus of criticism saying just that at the games I attended at MSG.

If you further doubt that, all you need do is read the overwhelming amount of similar comments that have littered here for years.

The very same crowd loved Purinton, as bad a defenseman to wear a Rangers sweater in the last 20 years. Was it his defensive skills that endeared him to the crowd?

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