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04-04-2010, 09:00 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I've seen Neidermeyer do that a few times. Great players often do **** that makes you scream "no no no! don't do that.....oh **** NICE PLAY, YEAH!!!!!". I'm not saying Coburn is there yet, but he has the natural ability and I know it's cliche, but I think he will only get better with experience. Granted it takes some guys a lot longer to learn lessons than others, but he'll get there IMO.
There's a difference between doing it every now and then and doing it in practically every game.

I mean, he is not a smart hockey player, plain and simple, I think he was drafted on the assumption that his hockey sense would come naturally, but it's 7 years since he's been drafted and it still hasn't made any progress.

So when is it going to come?

Quote:
Good by what standard? I think he has had 4 good seasons and one bad one where he is really coming on at the end of the year now. Rumors of Coburn sucking are greatly exaggerated.

Phaneuf had an iffy season last year as well according to most Flames fans I hear tell it. Nothing abysmal though, just not up to his usual standard. He played through a hip injury last year also.
06-07 is essentially a wash, he had 20 games here, would not call it a good season.

07-08, great season, paired with Kimmo, did very well.

08-09, not a good season in my book, his GAON/60 was worse than Randy Jones, the team improved noticeably at the defensive end when he was not on the ice. Also hurt the offense, we scored more goals when he wasn't on the ice. Serious regression.

09-10, regression has continued. Has cut down on the PIMs, but hasn't picked up Lavi's system well, still a terrible PP player and generally poor offensively and singlehandedly murdered the Timonen pairing.

There are some serious questions at this point, he's 25 years-old and has done nothing but go backwards in 160 odd games since 07-08.

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04-04-2010, 09:07 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
There's a difference between doing it every now and then and doing it in practically every game.

I mean, he is not a smart hockey player, plain and simple, I think he was drafted on the assumption that his hockey sense would come naturally, but it's 7 years since he's been drafted and it still hasn't made any progress.

So when is it going to come?



06-07 is essentially a wash, he had 20 games here, would not call it a good season.

07-08, great season, paired with Kimmo, did very well.

08-09, not a good season in my book, his GAON/60 was worse than Randy Jones, the team improved noticeably at the defensive end when he was not on the ice. Also hurt the offense, we scored more goals when he wasn't on the ice. Serious regression.

09-10, regression has continued. Has cut down on the PIMs, but hasn't picked up Lavi's system well, still a terrible PP player and generally poor offensively and singlehandedly murdered the Timonen pairing.

There are some serious questions at this point, he's 25 years-old and has done nothing but go backwards in 160 odd games since 07-08.
08-09 he played with your boy Carle most of the year too. Before this year you could say that Carle has done nothing but regress after his rookie year either.

You say he has done nothing but go backwards, yet you also said that he cut out the PIMs. That to me shows that this off season coaching staff told he he had to stop taking so many minors, and he listened (thus also explaining why he was so off defensively to start the year, as he was trying to learn how to defend without penalties. Lately this season he has been a lot better defensively.

He has speed and size which are 2 thing Carle will NEVER have. Coburn can continue to learn defensively and offensively, but Carle will never get faster or bigger

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04-04-2010, 09:09 PM
  #153
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Considering that Coburn tanked the Kimmo pairing this year while Carle has managed to mesh well with Pronger, you are really blaming Carle for the failures of that pairing?

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04-04-2010, 09:16 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Considering that Coburn tanked the Kimmo pairing this year while Carle has managed to mesh well with Pronger, you are really blaming Carle for the failures of that pairing?
I didn't blame it on Carle, but they both sucked. Coburn-Carle was a horrible top pairing, and Stevens was too stupid to stop pairing them together.

Coburn was crap at the start of the year, But Timonen started VERY rough as well. They are both responsible for the failure of that pairing. Pronger made MAB look like a good defensman back in EDM

Meanwhile Carle is playing like crap at the worst part of the season, whereas Coburn has been getting his game together. Carle is virtually a one dimensional defenseman, which we have no need for(at 3.45 million) as we already have 2 top offensive guys

Not to mention that Coburn will definitely be at least a million dollars cheaper than Carle next year.

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04-04-2010, 09:19 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Considering that Coburn tanked the Kimmo pairing this year while Carle has managed to mesh well with Pronger, you are really blaming Carle for the failures of that pairing?
I'd like to see what would have happened if it were Coburn paired with Pronger all year.

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04-04-2010, 09:27 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft
I didn't blame it on Carle, but they both sucked. Coburn-Carle was a horrible top pairing, and Stevens was too stupid to stop pairing them together.

Coburn was crap at the start of the year, But Timonen started VERY rough as well. They are both responsible for the failure of that pairing. Pronger made MAB look like a good defensman back in EDM

Meanwhile Carle is playing like crap at the worst part of the season, whereas Coburn has been getting his game together. Carle is virtually a one dimensional defenseman, which we have no need for(at 3.45 million) as we already have 2 top offensive guys

Not to mention that Coburn will definitely be at least a million dollars cheaper than Carle next year.
Coburn has been treading water at best recently. Look, going into the season, I was all for jettisoning Carle after the year and keeping Coburn assuming Coburn bounced back (which I strongly expected to happen).

If Coburn were demonstrably better than Carle defensively, I'd be in favor of keeping him. But he's not. Sure he's bigger and faster, but he still doesn't use his size, he still doesn't protect the crease any better than Carle (which is saying something) and he still turns the puck over in horrendous areas and doesn't seem to have any awareness whatsoever.

At this point, if the Flyers have to choose one and they want to win now, it's easily Carle.

I mean, people talk about how Coburn still has to learn the position and etc., Carle is only 7 months than Coburn and has only played 10 more NHL games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
I'd like to see what would have happened if it were Coburn paired with Pronger all year.
Same thing as now IMO and the pairing would have been broken up. Pronger can cover up a lot of Carle's deficiencies, but he can't cover up stupid and Coburn is a lot dumber than Carle when it comes to hockey smarts.

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04-04-2010, 09:37 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Coburn has been treading water at best recently. Look, going into the season, I was all for jettisoning Carle after the year and keeping Coburn assuming Coburn bounced back (which I strongly expected to happen).

If Coburn were demonstrably better than Carle defensively, I'd be in favor of keeping him. But he's not. Sure he's bigger and faster, but he still doesn't use his size, he still doesn't protect the crease any better than Carle (which is saying something) and he still turns the puck over in horrendous areas and doesn't seem to have any awareness whatsoever.

At this point, if the Flyers have to choose one and they want to win now, it's easily Carle.

I mean, people talk about how Coburn still has to learn the position and etc., Carle is only 7 months than Coburn and has only played 10 more NHL games.
I get what you are saying (Though Coburn decked some red wing today, and at least he can take a hit), and I know Carle is the same age as Coburn, I just said that he can't "learn" speed or size.

But you are ignoring the biggest thing here $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If Coburn can be signed for around 2 mil, that saves almost 1.5 mil from Carle's contract, so even if Coburn isn't significantly better than Carle defensively, he will be CHEAPER.

And Carle is better offensively, but he also played top unit on the PP for half of the year with Pronger, which is huge for points. Carle started very hot because of this. And Im not saying Coburn is just as good on the PP, cause he's not, it's just that we don't need Carle's PP skill with PRonger, Timonen and Richards who can play the point very very well on the PP. Better off trading him somewhere where a PPQB is needed

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04-04-2010, 09:43 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Same thing as now IMO and the pairing would have been broken up. Pronger can cover up a lot of Carle's deficiencies, but he can't cover up stupid and Coburn is a lot dumber than Carle when it comes to hockey smarts.
I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree with you there. Coburn played poorly for the majority of the year, yes, but he has turned it around a lot over the past month. As for Carle, he's severely declined over that same time period. I realize he had that injury, but since the Olympics, Carle has looked poor in most games. If Coburn would have been paired with Pronger at the start of the season, he would have benefitted tremendously IMO. Carle and Coburn are pretty much equal in my book and have similar hockey sense, and neither are dumb, just prone to make mistakes more often than premier defenseman. They're both solid second pairing guys. The thing is, Coburn's next extension will still probably be about $1mil less than Carle's.

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04-04-2010, 09:48 PM
  #159
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Carle is slow and weak

Coburn is stupid

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04-04-2010, 09:56 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I get what you are saying (Though Coburn decked some red wing today, and at least he can take a hit), and I know Carle is the same age as Coburn, I just said that he can't "learn" speed or size.

But you are ignoring the biggest thing here $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

If Coburn can be signed for around 2 mil, that saves almost 1.5 mil from Carle's contract, so even if Coburn isn't significantly better than Carle defensively, he will be CHEAPER.

And Carle is better offensively, but he also played top unit on the PP for half of the year with Pronger, which is huge for points. Carle started very hot because of this. And Im not saying Coburn is just as good on the PP, cause he's not, it's just that we don't need Carle's PP skill with PRonger, Timonen and Richards who can play the point very very well on the PP. Better off trading him somewhere where a PPQB is needed
The thing is that next season is a "must-contend" season for us because we've blown this year and are going to have some contract issues after 10-11 (Gagne, Carter, Giroux, Leino all expiring).

So I mean, do I want to go into next season with a guy who's iffy, but ultimately a No.4 or a guy who's just a total wild-card? I'll take the No.4 and hope Parent can step up and play strong defense.

And Carle can at least learn defensive body positioning (something he really should be better at) and at least he has the NHL's resident expert in the same locker room (Kimmo).

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy
I respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree with you there. Coburn played poorly for the majority of the year, yes, but he has turned it around a lot over the past month. As for Carle, he's severely declined over that same time period. I realize he had that injury, but since the Olympics, Carle has looked poor in most games. If Coburn would have been paired with Pronger at the start of the season, he would have benefitted tremendously IMO. Carle and Coburn are pretty much equal in my book and have similar hockey sense, and neither are dumb, just prone to make mistakes more often than premier defenseman. They're both solid second pairing guys. The thing is, Coburn's next extension will still probably be about $1mil less than Carle's.
I actually don't think Carle's been that bad over the past month, I certainly haven't noticed Coburn playing better than him.

And I mean, stupid is as stupid does. If you made Kim Kardashian follow Stephen Hawking, would that make Kim Kardashian smarter?

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04-04-2010, 09:59 PM
  #161
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Laviolette has to at least get Carle the hell of the PK though. Parent needs to get back out there regularly.

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04-04-2010, 10:06 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Laviolette has to at least get Carle the hell of the PK though. Parent needs to get back out there regularly.
That's tough to say, Carle actually has amazing PK stats, not sure why though.

Coburn: 7.70 goals allowed per 60.
Kimmo: 6.73 goals allowed per 60.
Pronger: 6.69 goals allowed per 60.
Parent: 6.01 goals allowed per 60.
Carle: 3.39 goals allowed per 60.

I do not get it at all, but there it is.

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04-04-2010, 10:11 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That's tough to say, Carle actually has amazing PK stats, not sure why though.

Coburn: 7.70 goals allowed per 60.
Kimmo: 6.73 goals allowed per 60.
Pronger: 6.69 goals allowed per 60.
Parent: 6.01 goals allowed per 60.
Carle: 3.39 goals allowed per 60.

I do not get it at all, but there it is.
Sample size?

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04-04-2010, 10:12 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
That's tough to say, Carle actually has amazing PK stats, not sure why though.

Coburn: 7.70 goals allowed per 60.
Kimmo: 6.73 goals allowed per 60.
Pronger: 6.69 goals allowed per 60.
Parent: 6.01 goals allowed per 60.
Carle: 3.39 goals allowed per 60.

I do not get it at all, but there it is.
PK stats don't really work the same as even strength though.
Carle is AWFUL on the PK, Everytime a team has sustained PP pressure on us, Carle is out there. You need to be able to muscle on the wall and win a battle

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04-04-2010, 10:17 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post

I actually don't think Carle's been that bad over the past month, I certainly haven't noticed Coburn playing better than him.

And I mean, stupid is as stupid does. If you made Kim Kardashian follow Stephen Hawking, would that make Kim Kardashian smarter?
All I'm saying is I've seen Carle do just as stupid things as Coburn has on the ice. All defenseman make mistakes, some just more often than others and that is basically what determines where they should be on a depth chart. IMO, both Carle and Coburn are solid 2nd pairing guys on the majority of NHL teams which equates to them both making the similar amount of mistakes. IMO, Carle's mistakes haven't been as magnified because he has Pronger backing him up which means that all of his mistakes don't always lead to goals against. The big thing is Carle will most likely be about $1 million dollars more expensive to keep around than Coburn next year.

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04-04-2010, 10:24 PM
  #166
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Pronger making up for Carle's mistakes is being blown out of proportion here IMO. What makes Pronger great are the things he can do with the puck on his stick and when he has time to position himself well. Kimmo can cover a bad partner better than Pronger. Pronger doesn't have Kimmo's speed and nobody makes a desperation play better than Kimmo IMO.

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04-04-2010, 10:24 PM
  #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Sample size?
Full season, I mean it's weird because I agree that Carle is a below-average PKer, but do we really mess with that at this point when it's working?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
PK stats don't really work the same as even strength though.
Carle is AWFUL on the PK, Everytime a team has sustained PP pressure on us, Carle is out there. You need to be able to muscle on the wall and win a battle
Why not? I mean, it's essentially the same thing, teams score half as much on the PK when Carle is out there. I agree that it's really weird, but like I said, do we want to mess with it right now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyguy View Post
All I'm saying is I've seen Carle do just as stupid things as Coburn has on the ice. All defenseman make mistakes, some just more often than others and that is basically what determines where they should be on a depth chart. IMO, both Carle and Coburn are solid 2nd pairing guys on the majority of NHL teams which equates to them both making the similar amount of mistakes. IMO, Carle's mistakes haven't been as magnified because he has Pronger backing him up which means that all of his mistakes don't always lead to goals against. The big thing is Carle will most likely be about $1 million dollars more expensive to keep around than Coburn next year.
Eh, Carle doesn't make mistakes on the same level of stupidity that Coburn does. Carle will try to force a pass or get too cute or get victimized because he's slow and mediocre positionally.

Coburn's mistakes stem from things like not knowing where your teammates are, not taking care of the puck, not taking the body, etc.

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04-04-2010, 10:34 PM
  #168
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Coburn and Parent together next year should be around the same price or cheaper than just Carle.

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04-04-2010, 10:36 PM
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Coburn and Parent together next year should be around the same price or cheaper than just Carle.
And both those guys have massive red flags.

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04-04-2010, 10:43 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
And both those guys have massive red flags.
I know that, but Carle is not the cat's meow. I really think Coburn can improve his game, and I hope Parent could stay healthy.

Carle's cap hit could make him the traded one, if we cant move a Briere or hartnell due to NTC

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04-04-2010, 11:01 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
And both those guys have massive red flags.
Would you say Carle makes more than he's worth?

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04-04-2010, 11:08 PM
  #172
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Would you say Carle makes more than he's worth?
Yes.

Carle doesn't deserve his amount of cash he earns.

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04-04-2010, 11:14 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post

And Carle can at least learn defensive body positioning (something he really should be better at) and at least he has the NHL's resident expert in the same locker room (Kimmo).

And I mean, stupid is as stupid does. If you made Kim Kardashian follow Stephen Hawking, would that make Kim Kardashian smarter?
i totally agree with the first part but i seriously think your underestimating stephen hawking. i read that and i was like wow, completely. he could do it.if the cast of jersey shore had a one eyed inbred clone child i think following stephen hawking around would make them smarter than most people. just think about it. how smart do you have to be to be world famous as a scientist in a culture where 9 out of 10 people couldnt tell you who invented the phone without google.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Coburn and Parent together next year should be around the same price or cheaper than just Carle.
say they all improve. carle works on positioning coburn rebounds and parent plays a complete season without injury. whos the best player there? for me its matt carle. and the thing that as an organization you have the most control over is coaching. his problems are the ones you can fix

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04-04-2010, 11:17 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post

say they all improve. carle works on positioning coburn rebounds and parent plays a complete season without injury. whos the best player there? for me its matt carle. and the thing that as an organization you have the most control over is coaching. his problems are the ones you can fix
Alexander Graham Bell

And I think Carle's faults are less correctable (he is slow and weak and soft) His positioning is already decent, whereas Coburn's positioning and decsion making could improve


Carle averages almost 1 hit every 2nd game, even though he logs huge minutes. That's so soft. Coburn averaged 1.4 hit per game, Parent at around .9

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04-04-2010, 11:32 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
Carle averages almost 1 hit every 2nd game, even though he logs huge minutes. That's so soft. Coburn averaged 1.4 hit per game, Parent at around .9
That's the stupidest god damn thing. Because he doesn't hit it means he's soft so he's no good. Eric Desjardins wasn't a hitting a machine either and he was probably the second best defenseman this franchise has ever seen behind Mark Howe, another defenseman who wasn't known as a bone crushing physical player.

Just because Carle doesn't hit doesn't mean that he's soft. I'm so sick of this garbage about having to hit because most of the time, when you're taking someone out with a hit, you're taking yourself out of your position. A poke check is just as effective as hammering someone along the boards.

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