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Bernier Injured - Back to Vancouver

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Old
04-05-2010, 08:48 PM
  #76
NFITO
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
I think it depends on Berniers play over the past 3 games as well as Grabners play. If Grabner looks great and is a constant threat, how can you pull him? As well Bernier has sort of run out of chances in terms of being a top 9 player. He was supposed to be a 20+ goal guy and while he has 11 G 10 A in 56 games.

Grabner has shown in his few games that he can be more effective in those limited games than Bernier has been all season. Now Bernier can still be used in special teams roles if needed but I would be suprised if Bernier replaces or supplants Grabner.
I don't get how those are bad numbers for a 3rd line guy?

Bernier may have been projected to be a 20+ goal guy, but that was also assuming he was projected to be a top-6 winger. 20+ goals from your 3rd line winger isn't all that realistic an expectation, and Bernier has played pretty much exclusively on the 3rd line since he got here - outside the first 20 or so games when the team still thought he was ready for top-6 duty when he first arrived.

Projected over a full season, that's on pace for 16 goals and 30 pts. Compare that with the other players around the league that fill 3rd line spots and I doubt his numbers are much worse.

I don't see it as Bernier running out of chances to be a top-9 player - I think he may be running out of chances to be a top-6 guy, but he's cemented himself quite well as a 3rd line player overall... like most 3rd liners he's inconsistent, but he also does bring some elements to the team with his size and ability to play on the boards and in front of the net. His 16 goal pace isn't that bad for a 3rd liner either, and at his age he should be expected to improve that a bit more as well.

Bernier is a disappointment if you're projecting him as the power forward with top line upside who could be a good fit with the Sedins - what he was basically projected as when he first arrived. But as a "top-9" guy, or more specifically a 3rd liner, he's still a solid player and contributor this team IMO.

As far as Grabner goes, I don't see them challenging for the same spot, because they don't play similar roles. I think Grabner's bigger challenge is to supplant one of Demitra, Raymond or Samuelsson in the lineup, who are all used in more offensive roles, than a guy like Bernier, who's expected to fill a more physical role on the team. I still maintain that Grabner is Demitra's heir apparent next season... this season Bernier is back in the lineup the minute he's healthy and will play on either the 3rd or 4th line, and won't be pushing anyone out of the top-6 spot, which is were Grabner is most useful.

If Grabner continues to play well I could see him in the lineup (moving Bernier to the 4th line with Samuelsson on the 3rd and one of Hansen or Glass/Hordichuk out)... but I'd be surprised at this point if Grabner has anything more than cup of coffee in the playoffs, barring injury.

The playoff lines I'm expecting (again granted everyone is healthy):

Daniel-Henrik-Burrows
Demitra-Kesler-Samuelsson
Raymond-Wellwood-Bernier
Glass-Johnson-Hansen/Rypien

that 3rd line was together last playoffs and all 3 had a solid playoffs overall... I could see AV going back to that unit again this year.

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04-05-2010, 08:49 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Biggest Canuck Fan View Post
I think it depends on Berniers play over the past 3 games as well as Grabners play. If Grabner looks great and is a constant threat, how can you pull him? As well Bernier has sort of run out of chances in terms of being a top 9 player. He was supposed to be a 20+ goal guy and while he has 11 G 10 A in 56 games.

Grabner has shown in his few games that he can be more effective in those limited games than Bernier has been all season. Now Bernier can still be used in special teams roles if needed but I would be suprised if Bernier replaces or supplants Grabner.
Things can and will change during the course of the playoffs, but I would hope if our top 9 is thriving in its current set-up, why not bolster the 4th with Hansen and Bernier? It's not as if neither of these guys can bang (I remember a stat showing that Hansen was hitting more than Rypien), they can defend, and they are a threat to score. Again, if we are a playing a team that is roughing us up and we aren't making them pay dearly on the PP, then bring in a Glass, Hordi or Rypien for Grabner, shift Bernier up a line, and let the meatheads run around a bit. Otherwise, Hansen and Bernier can do the 4th line duties just fine, and be a threat to boot.

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04-05-2010, 09:59 PM
  #78
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hey LMG, clearly this poster didn't watch last year's playoffs, right?

Bernier was arguably our best player in last year's playoffs and was a force physically.

I do like the "on the scoresheet" reference though...considering the two combined for 3 points in 20 games. not what they are in the line-up for, I know, but why mention it then?

we'll see though...if AV dresses Hordy/RR/Glass instead of Hansen, he's making a mistake. if he dresses any over a healthy and effective Bernier, he's a dolt. But if he's going to make the mistake of dressing one of those three, it should be, in order: Glass, Hordy............................................. ..............................Rypien.
Last post season - Hits:
Player -..GP -Hits
1 -Ryan Kesler -10 -24
2 -Steve Bernier -10 -21
3 -Rick Rypien -10 -21
4 -Darcy Hordichuk -10 -19
5 -Mason Raymond -10 -18
6 -Alexandre Burrows -10 -15
7 -Alexander Edler -10 -12
8 -Shane O'Brien -10 -12
9 -Willie Mitchell -10 -11
10 -Mattias Ohlund -10 -11
11 -Kevin Bieksa -10 -9

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04-05-2010, 10:16 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Last post season - Hits:
Player -..GP -Hits
1 -Ryan Kesler -10 -24
2 -Steve Bernier -10 -21
3 -Rick Rypien -10 -21
4 -Darcy Hordichuk -10 -19
5 -Mason Raymond -10 -18
6 -Alexandre Burrows -10 -15
7 -Alexander Edler -10 -12
8 -Shane O'Brien -10 -12
9 -Willie Mitchell -10 -11
10 -Mattias Ohlund -10 -11
11 -Kevin Bieksa -10 -9
exactly, thanks for posting. even the most frequent hitters on the team last year were only getting ~2hits per game.

makes no sense to dress a vastly inferior hockey player to play 5 minutes a game and cannot contribute outside the 4th line energy role just to add 1-2 hits per game (that's to the overall team total, just to be clear) to the lineup.

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04-06-2010, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by alternate View Post
exactly, thanks for posting. even the most frequent hitters on the team last year were only getting ~2hits per game.

makes no sense to dress a vastly inferior hockey player to play 5 minutes a game and cannot contribute outside the 4th line energy role just to add 1-2 hits per game (that's to the overall team total, just to be clear) to the lineup.
Oops, forgot in your mind all hits are equal. Obviously when H. Sedin throws a hit its as meaningful, hard and potentially damaging as when Hordichuk, Rypien and Glass hit.

My bad.

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04-06-2010, 11:59 AM
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Oops, forgot in your mind all hits are equal. Obviously when H. Sedin throws a hit its as meaningful, hard and potentially damaging as when Hordichuk, Rypien and Glass hit.

My bad.
Haha, bingo. Demitra's "hit" of the playoffs hurt the Canucks. Hordichuk's hit on Hjalmarsson created O'Briens goal. Watch Hjalmarsson after he was hit. He didn't want anything to do with the puck. That's the benefit of forwards who lay the body in the playoffs. Dmen can be worn down and it can change the way they play.



Edit: I didn't see this was already posted. Joined the party late...


Last edited by Timmer44: 04-06-2010 at 12:08 PM.
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04-06-2010, 12:09 PM
  #82
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Haha, bingo. Demitra's "hit" of the playoffs hurt the Canucks. Hordichuk's hit on Hjalmarsson created O'Briens goal. Watch Hjalmarsson after he was hit. He didn't want anything to do with the puck. That's the benefit of forwards who lay the body in the playoffs. Dmen can be worn down and it can change the way they play.

At 0:22, Hjalmarsson avoids a hit from Wellwood.

In this instance, I completely agree with you.

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04-06-2010, 12:12 PM
  #83
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At 0:22, Hjalmarsson avoids a hit from Wellwood.

In this instance, I completely agree with you.
Wellwood is a playoff monster.

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04-06-2010, 05:52 PM
  #84
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exactly, thanks for posting. even the most frequent hitters on the team last year were only getting ~2hits per game.

makes no sense to dress a vastly inferior hockey player to play 5 minutes a game and cannot contribute outside the 4th line energy role just to add 1-2 hits per game (that's to the overall team total, just to be clear) to the lineup.
Sorry, forgot yhe cup is awarded to the team that hits the hardest.

I know when I think of Pitt or Det I think big hitters. Guys like Maltby and Draper, huge hitters.

Same with Carolina and TB. Big tough teams when they won it all.

Only team post lockout who won the cup and would be considered tough and physical would be ANA but having two HOF blueliners coimplimented by Conn Smythe level gaoltending and Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry and MacDonald had more to do with it than anything else I'd say.

Look, I appreciate physical hockey and recognize the value of wearing down the opposition. But not at the expense of icing an inferior team to get it. The. Blueprint for winning in today's NHL is not running your opponent through the end boards. Its about having 20 skaters thab contribute above and beyond finishing a check and winning the special teams battle.

Simply look at the team MG has assembled; clearly he agrees. Welcome to the present. Being tough doesn't beat teams like Det or Chi. Period.
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EDIT: lol at quoting myself by mistake.


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04-06-2010, 06:57 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Oops, forgot in your mind all hits are equal. Obviously when H. Sedin throws a hit its as meaningful, hard and potentially damaging as when Hordichuk, Rypien and Glass hit.

My bad.
Not the evidence I would cite. His weak spot as an energy guy is his size and body mass doesn't do the damage on the forecheck that Glass, Bernier or Hordichuk can do.

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04-06-2010, 07:06 PM
  #86
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You need some guys that can hit.

If we don't get guys that step up and do that, we're not winning the cup. I think there are players on this team that are capable of doing so... we'll see if they decide to do it or not soon enough.

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04-08-2010, 11:48 PM
  #87
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and how much of that Rypien have you seen this season, especially in the second half? not much.

meanwhile, I could embed back to back GWGs by Hansen...from just a couple of weeks ago. not quite the same momentum shift, I know...but it should count for something at least.

also worth noting, Hansen 9 goals and 14 points in 44 games played.
Rypien and Hordy combined: 4 goals and 9 points in 123 games played.

short-handed TOI/Game: Hansen-1:47
Rypien 0:10
Hordichuck 0:00

in the playoffs, EVERY player (cept maybe Demo) plays physical. but Hansen brings so much more to the table than just that, especially the way the three have been playing of late. Hordy is better than Rypien, but Rypien has done nothing worth noting in months.
yeah, hansen was great on the 4th line in place of rypien and hordichuk tonight

who needs toughness

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04-08-2010, 11:51 PM
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yeah, hansen was great on the 4th line in place of rypien and hordichuk tonight

who needs toughness
Rome came to play, who else?

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04-08-2010, 11:54 PM
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Rome came to play, who else?
kesler had a nice hugfest

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04-08-2010, 11:56 PM
  #90
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kesler had a nice hugfest
How did Kelser end up being tossed when it was Wallin who started everything?

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04-09-2010, 12:00 AM
  #91
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How did Kelser end up being tossed when it was Wallin who started everything?
in the new nhl whenever there is the possibility of entertainment they starting giving out misconducts like crazy

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04-09-2010, 02:02 AM
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Not sure why Ryane Clowe, twice now in the last two games against the Canucks, can get away with instigating fights. He doesn't show any toughness; he just looks like a sensitive idiot going after players who lay out hits that are not remotely dirty in any way.

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04-09-2010, 02:13 AM
  #93
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Despite his salary, I like the look of Bernier on the 4th line. The guy has the potential to be really effective for the team if you take almost all offensive responsibility away from him. Who knows, without the pressure of being expected to score, he may relax a little, just play his game, and pop some key goals in for the team.

Being on the 4th line may also encourage him to get back to hitting, hitting and more hitting. He knows the role of the 4th line (energy, crashing and banging) and if he's on it, he'll know that's what he has to do.

Going into the playoffs, I'd like to see these forward lines:

D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Burrows
Demitra - Kesler - Grabner
Raymond - Wellwood - Samuelsson
Hansen - Rypien - Bernier

Extra forwards for toughness: Rypien, Hordichuk, Glass

I don't like Rypien as the 4th line centre, though. His faceoff percentage is ugly and he's way more effective on the RW. I can't believe I'm saying this but Johnson would look much better there as the 4th line centre.

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04-09-2010, 02:24 AM
  #94
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Despite his salary, I like the look of Bernier on the 4th line. The guy has the potential to be really effective for the team if you take almost all offensive responsibility away from him. Who knows, without the pressure of being expected to score, he may relax a little, just play his game, and pop some key goals in for the team.

Being on the 4th line may also encourage him to get back to hitting, hitting and more hitting. He knows the role of the 4th line (energy, crashing and banging) and if he's on it, he'll know that's what he has to do.

Going into the playoffs, I'd like to see these forward lines:

D. Sedin - H. Sedin - Burrows
Demitra - Kesler - Grabner
Raymond - Wellwood - Samuelsson
Hansen - Rypien - Bernier

Extra forwards for toughness: Rypien, Hordichuk, Glass

I don't like Rypien as the 4th line centre, though. His faceoff percentage is ugly and he's way more effective on the RW. I can't believe I'm saying this but Johnson would look much better there as the 4th line centre.
I agree with you on Rypien... he's much better on the RW. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bolduc called up soon to fill that role. I think they were hoping Pettinger would slide in there, but my guess is that Bolduc is next on the list of candidates.

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04-09-2010, 02:28 AM
  #95
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Sorry, forgot yhe cup is awarded to the team that hits the hardest.

I know when I think of Pitt or Det I think big hitters. Guys like Maltby and Draper, huge hitters.

Same with Carolina and TB. Big tough teams when they won it all.

Only team post lockout who won the cup and would be considered tough and physical would be ANA but having two HOF blueliners coimplimented by Conn Smythe level gaoltending and Selanne, Getzlaf, Perry and MacDonald had more to do with it than anything else I'd say.

Look, I appreciate physical hockey and recognize the value of wearing down the opposition. But not at the expense of icing an inferior team to get it. The. Blueprint for winning in today's NHL is not running your opponent through the end boards. Its about having 20 skaters thab contribute above and beyond finishing a check and winning the special teams battle.

Simply look at the team MG has assembled; clearly he agrees. Welcome to the present. Being tough doesn't beat teams like Det or Chi. Period.
Posted via Mobile Device

EDIT: lol at quoting myself by mistake.
I disagree.

Toughness, physical, hitting whatever you call it is important in the playoffs.

You can't just identify one thing and say its not important.

Being tough ie good at fighting is not much help. But being good at forechecking and hitting is very important.

- It wears down the opposition.

- It creates turnovers.

- It creates momentum. In the playoffs its all about momentum shifts, and using that to propel you.

- Initiating physical play will likely force the other team to react and retaliate. IE. you get on the pp.

The thing is just because detroit doesn't fight doesn't mean they aren't tough. They hit quite often, and they go to the net like crazy.

Stuart hits hard, kronwall is likely one of the deadliest hitter in the league. Franzen/Holmstrom all go to the net. Even datsyuk hits a lot.

If you watch darren helm, in the playoffs all he did was skate his lungs out, go to the forecheck and try to wear down the opposition.

Its all about winning puck battles.

So the hordichuks are very much useless in the playoffs. The Ryan Clowes on the other hand are very effective.

And i don't get the comment how a bigger team is inferior?

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04-09-2010, 10:48 AM
  #96
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I agree with you on Rypien... he's much better on the RW. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bolduc called up soon to fill that role. I think they were hoping Pettinger would slide in there, but my guess is that Bolduc is next on the list of candidates.
Bolduc is out for the season with a shoulder injury.

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04-09-2010, 10:58 AM
  #97
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kesler had a nice hugfest
Um, it was wallin doing all the hugging, kesler was trying to get out of it.

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04-09-2010, 11:57 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by campbell_soup View Post
Not sure why Ryane Clowe, twice now in the last two games against the Canucks, can get away with instigating fights. He doesn't show any toughness; he just looks like a sensitive idiot going after players who lay out hits that are not remotely dirty in any way.
Are you ready for the playoffs? Because its time to go

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04-09-2010, 11:58 AM
  #99
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Um, it was wallin doing all the hugging, kesler was trying to get out of it.
Kesler was bro-ing Wallin so good I saw some real love.

Great hug and snuggle.

Glad Rome came to play.

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04-09-2010, 12:01 PM
  #100
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Kesler was bro-ing Wallin so good I saw some real love.

Great hug and snuggle.

Glad Rome came to play.

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