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Marc Staal statistically best defensive dman in NHL this season

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Old
04-09-2010, 11:30 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
"One of the weaknesses in the system I use is that players who play almost every minute of every game together are virtually inseparable (i.e. Phillips-Volchenkov) statistically and both are given a high rating".
Girardi hasn't been exclusively paired with Staal. He's played 37.21% EV shifts with Staal, 33.46% with Del Zotto. Girardi has basically been splitting his EV shifts between Staal and Del Zotto while being consistently paired with Staal on the PK.

http://www.dobberhockey.com/frozenpo...ations&sent=go

Phillips and Volchenkov had 71% of EV strength together and 12.3% SH shifts together. They are always on the ice together, much more so than Girardi and Staal.

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04-09-2010, 01:04 PM
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Nice website. Staal has played more with Rozsival than with Girardi (40% vs. 37%) this season

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04-09-2010, 02:09 PM
  #53
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If you really want to rank defensemen purely on stats, you need to look at how many quality scoring chances they cough up per 60 minutes of ice time. How many odd man rushes, breakaways they give, etc.

Whether or not the shot goes in doesn't really matter, that's the goalie's problem. The only thing that's in the defenseman's control is what type of shots get to the net

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04-09-2010, 06:34 PM
  #54
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I'm not really a true believer in those stats but nice to see Staal get some deserved credit. He isn't a very flashy player he doesn't have those big open ice hits or has a rocket of a shot so he doesn't get the attention like some other defensemen in the league get. But he is very good defensive dman especially when you consider how young he still is. He is 23 years old and basically carrying the defense unit.

Girardi isn't as bad as people make him out to be. He has played really well since the last game against Philly. He is good in blocking shots and he does hit he is a solid number 4 type defensemen. The one thing you want to see from him is play with a little bit more snarl around the crease.


Last edited by XLJ: 04-09-2010 at 06:39 PM.
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04-09-2010, 06:53 PM
  #55
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Seriously, though, while some guys who don't get enough credit got spotlighted here, don't you also think that both this list and the defensive forward list unfairly credits certain players in this category that don't belong anywhere near a list like this, as well?
It's crediting players who play against opponents' top lines and rarely get scored on.

A lot of players ring up high goal or point totals that aren't truly indicative of their talent level but came as a result of playing with good linemates, in the right situation or plain old luck.

No statistical measures are perfect -- I'm simply looking for something more useful than plus-minus to gauge defensive play.

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04-09-2010, 06:54 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by MustNeids22 View Post
The list is legitimate in the context of the model you are using. The problem people may have is not in the list itself but in the title of the article.
You're right... I think I might have to suggest a different headline for it. (Although this one seems to draw people in and provoke discussion.)

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04-09-2010, 07:18 PM
  #57
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Awesome jinx thread.

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04-09-2010, 08:26 PM
  #58
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Crashed back to earth tonight lol. per kid can't get a break tonight

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04-10-2010, 02:29 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Banks3rdLineCenter View Post
Girardi hasn't been exclusively paired with Staal.
I second this, in fact,... Girardi is only paired with Staal when opposing teams load their top line. And why would Torts do this, when Rosy is playing so well? That's how good Girardi is.

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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
If you really want to rank defensemen purely on stats, you need to look at how many quality scoring chances they cough up per 60 minutes of ice time. How many odd man rushes, breakaways they give, etc.

Whether or not the shot goes in doesn't really matter, that's the goalie's problem. The only thing that's in the defenseman's control is what type of shots get to the net
This is true. But it is also true the less scoring chances you give up, the less goals against. So there is a definite corelation if you just use the goals against to get an idea of how many scoring chances they allowed (How bad or good defensively they've been).

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Originally Posted by James Mirtle View Post
It's crediting players who play against opponents' top lines and rarely get scored on.

A lot of players ring up high goal or point totals that aren't truly indicative of their talent level but came as a result of playing with good linemates, in the right situation or plain old luck.

No statistical measures are perfect -- I'm simply looking for something more useful than plus-minus to gauge defensive play.
Plus-Minus is a joke to gauge D for individual players. Glad to see you chime in. Keep up the good work.

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Awesome jinx thread.
Is that funny or what.

What was that,.. like 5 seconds into the game?

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04-10-2010, 02:53 AM
  #60
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This is true. But it is also true the less scoring chances you give up, the less goals against. So there is a definite corelation if you just use the goals against to get an idea of how many scoring chances they allowed (How bad or good defensively they've been).
Yes, there's a huge correlation, but basing it off scoring chances is a better way to judge the DEFENSEMAN, since goals against also has a lot to do with the goaltender. A D with a .92 goalie will have 25% less goals against then an equally skilled D with a .89 goalie

If you want to rank players off stats you have to pick stats that best isolate those players, and takes other team mates out of the equation

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04-10-2010, 03:19 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
Yes, there's a huge correlation, but basing it off scoring chances is a better way to judge the DEFENSEMAN, since goals against also has a lot to do with the goaltender. A D with a .92 goalie will have 25% less goals against then an equally skilled D with a .89 goalie.
Thats a good point. Didn't think about that. But how do you get 25% less goals between a .92 and .89?

Anyway, goalies and d-men work hand in hand. Who's to say Hank would be a .92 if Staal, Girardi, and Rosy, didn't play well infront of him?

A better example,.. last year when Marty went down, who would have thought the Devils would actually climb in the standings behind Clemenson? You gotta give the D some credit for good goalie stats too.

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04-10-2010, 04:43 AM
  #62
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Crashed back to earth tonight lol. per kid can't get a break tonight
crashed back down to earth? He had 1 bad giveaway, but other than that, he was absolutely awesome.

1 bad giveaway is hardly "Crashing back to earth". honestly i dont think any of our D looked "Crashed" at all, I thought out entire D played outstanding hockey, especially against such a powerful lineup.


Last edited by Inferno: 04-10-2010 at 04:58 AM.
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04-10-2010, 05:51 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by ohbaby View Post
Thats a good point. Didn't think about that. But how do you get 25% less goals between a .92 and .89?

Anyway, goalies and d-men work hand in hand. Who's to say Hank would be a .92 if Staal, Girardi, and Rosy, didn't play well infront of him?

A better example,.. last year when Marty went down, who would have thought the Devils would actually climb in the standings behind Clemenson? You gotta give the D some credit for good goalie stats too.
Let's say .925 and .90, that should be pretty clear now...

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04-10-2010, 06:59 AM
  #64
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Let's say .925 and .90, that should be pretty clear now...
It's 25% less goals. 1/4 less goals. This does not equal the difference between .925 and .900 save percentages. I don't think that equates. Does it? It's too early in the morning to do math.

Edit...

200 shots, 185 saves, 15 goals .925 save pct
200 shots, 180 saves, 20 goals .900 save pct

25% less, your right. Wow,.. I never realized that.

Which goalie stat do you think is more important? GAA or SV%


Last edited by ohbaby: 04-10-2010 at 07:33 AM.
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04-10-2010, 08:00 AM
  #65
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A better example,.. last year when Marty went down, who would have thought the Devils would actually climb in the standings behind Clemenson? You gotta give the D some credit for good goalie stats too.
Good point... A good goalie will have good stats if he has a solid NHL defense in front of him. The Rangers do have have solid NHL defense.. Top 10-15 in the NHL.. imo...

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04-10-2010, 08:36 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
If you want to rank players off stats you have to pick stats that best isolate those players, and takes other team mates out of the equation
Yeah, but there's no centralized stat gathering for most of the stuff you're talking about. It'd be great for stats people if every single thing that went on out there on the ice was recorded and categorized, but that doesn't happen, so we ultimately have to make do with what we have right now

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Good point... A good goalie will have good stats if he has a solid NHL defense in front of him. The Rangers do have have solid NHL defense.. Top 10-15 in the NHL.. imo...
Pfft, TSN thinks it's only 19th

The D is pretty solid when everyone is playing well. Once Rozsival got his **** together, Staal stopped fumbling his way through on offense, and Girardi pulled his head out of his ass, things got a lot better. I don't think Redden has really been that good or bad all season, he's just kind of there. And while I like Gilroy to some extent, Eriksson has somehow been quietly effective. And Del Zotto has made some strides. So in all, it's rounded into solid form, there's just room for improvement going forward.

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04-10-2010, 08:47 AM
  #67
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I thin he is up there with Shea and Drew

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04-10-2010, 09:48 AM
  #68
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The D is pretty solid when everyone is playing well. Once Rozsival got his **** together, Staal stopped fumbling his way through on offense, and Girardi pulled his head out of his ass, things got a lot better. I don't think Redden has really been that good or bad all season, he's just kind of there. And while I like Gilroy to some extent, Eriksson has somehow been quietly effective. And Del Zotto has made some strides. So in all, it's rounded into solid form, there's just room for improvement going forward.
Notice MDZ's minutes dwindling? Hardly getting any 3rd period shifts lately. This a big reason our D has been solid of late.

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04-10-2010, 09:54 AM
  #69
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Notice MDZ's minutes dwindling? Hardly getting any 3rd period shifts lately. This a big reason our D has been solid of late.
I don't think it's a "big" reason, but it does help...both the overall team D and Del Zotto himself (I think he got overwhelmed about a third of the way into the season with all the minutes he was getting)

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04-10-2010, 09:58 AM
  #70
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Is that funny or what.

What was that,.. like 5 seconds into the game?
40 seconds, I belive...

"Jinx" might be fun, but it's all ******** thinking.

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04-10-2010, 10:16 AM
  #71
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I don't think it's a "big" reason, but it does help...both the overall team D and Del Zotto himself (I think he got overwhelmed about a third of the way into the season with all the minutes he was getting)
Maybe so,.. but when was he ever defensively sound this season? I bite my lip every time they cross the blueline on his side. If he doesn't throw that hipcheck up high, he gets beat every time.

It's no wonder why Girardi is still in the minus column (-2). Why do you think Girardi is so good breaking up 2 on 1's? He's had lots of practice playing with MDZ.


Last edited by ohbaby: 04-10-2010 at 10:25 AM.
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04-10-2010, 12:36 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by ohbaby View Post
It's 25% less goals. 1/4 less goals. This does not equal the difference between .925 and .900 save percentages. I don't think that equates. Does it? It's too early in the morning to do math.

Edit...

200 shots, 185 saves, 15 goals .925 save pct
200 shots, 180 saves, 20 goals .900 save pct

25% less, your right. Wow,.. I never realized that.

Which goalie stat do you think is more important? GAA or SV%
SV% definitely. If a goalie has high SV%, it's certain that he's been playing very well. However, if he has a good GAA, he could be playing like a crap but behind a very good defense (Osgood in Detroit, partially Brodeur in the most recent years etc.)

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04-10-2010, 03:00 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Cermi View Post
SV% definitely. If a goalie has high SV%, it's certain that he's been playing very well. However, if he has a good GAA, he could be playing like a crap but behind a very good defense (Osgood in Detroit, partially Brodeur in the most recent years etc.)
Really now. How could you use those 2 to make your point? You saying they're not that good? Marty, who blew away just about every goalie record there was, who will go down in history as the best in his position,.... And Osgood, who has how many SC rings? Poor examples to make your argument.

Save % bothers me in that it takes in account how manys shots. If a team allows a lot of SOGs then their goalie would have an inflated figure. When in general, a good team will not allow many SOGs and in turn hurt their goalies %.

A better stat would be save % on quality chances and not. Since teams now keep track of quality chances, I'm surprised this doesn't become a regular stat.
This would be a real indicator of who and how many soft goals they allow.

If you were to ask a goalie what stat is the most important, they would say wins. And I kinda agree. I don't care how well the 5 infront play,... you need good goaltending to win in this league. So if you think about it, wins is probably even more important than either GAA or SV%.


Last edited by ohbaby: 04-10-2010 at 03:07 PM.
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04-10-2010, 05:08 PM
  #74
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1) I didnt say that marty sucks. I said that e.g. in the last season he wasnt so good as it you would say because of his GAA.
2) You're kidding about the wins, right? You want to tell me, that Hasek sucked, because he couldnt even win more than half of the games he played? You want to tell me that you would take goalie like Osgood over e.g. Vokoun in Florida? Really?

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04-10-2010, 05:49 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by f2d View Post
Yes, there's a huge correlation, but basing it off scoring chances is a better way to judge the DEFENSEMAN, since goals against also has a lot to do with the goaltender. A D with a .92 goalie will have 25% less goals against then an equally skilled D with a .89 goalie

If you want to rank players off stats you have to pick stats that best isolate those players, and takes other team mates out of the equation
Scoring chances isn't a statistic made available by the league in any form. I agree it would be very useful, but it's not out there right now.

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