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Everytime MAB plays on the 4th line, we lose

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Old
04-08-2010, 09:36 PM
  #26
zx81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FuriousBob View Post
Y
I am glad he scored a goal today but how many times do you see him make a bad pass/fall for nothing and that leads us to keep the puck in our own zone.

I'm not saying he has been awesome defensively all year.
What you said about turnovers is true but just not recently.
In the last 4 games he played some good defensive games.

They guy is +4 in the last 4 games...playing with a team that doesn't score goals.
Not too bad.
I haven't seen may turnovers in the D zone from him either in those games. I have seen a lot more from Josh and Ryan.

The only turnovers he made was when his shot was blocked but that should be expected.

I'm not saying he's a Norris candidate but to blame him for the losses is totally ******** (I know you did not blame him but OP did).

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04-09-2010, 01:22 AM
  #27
Lint07
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What a waste of a thread.

dumb dumb dumb.

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Old
04-09-2010, 06:15 AM
  #28
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
Bergeron was one of our best players tonight.
This thread is, at best, "weird".
At last a man who speaks truths!

I have watched the last four games that MAB has played mainly on defence and he has been one of LEAST dangerous players out there, and one of the MOST often making a good defensive play and re-launching the attack.

I'm not kidding. Hamrlik is being beaten to the puck 20 times a game, Markov, Gill and O'Byrne of all people are too often getting burned pinching, Gorges is having a hard time dealing with the cycle, and Spacek has only played one of the four games, but Jaro was less bad last night than most of his blue line mates.

I'm in favour of icing the best team possible, and I don't care what language the player speaks. Right now, Marc-André Bergeron is playing with more heart and poise, and less panic and molasses in his skates than most of his colleagues. He is rarely beaten in his own zone and rarely caught up ice. Perhaps THIS is the kind of play that got him a +5 with the Wild last year. He doesn't have to only fire slapshots to be useful.

Keep him in the lineup, on defence. Next move, call up PK Subban.

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Old
04-09-2010, 08:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kjell Dahlin View Post
You don't think that Bergeron was one of our best players tonight?
No I don't at all.

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04-09-2010, 08:34 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by FuriousBob View Post
Yes I am and no I am not a hater but MAB is not playin is role and this is to help on the PP...
I am glad he scored a goal today but how many times do you see him make a bad pass/fall for nothing and that leads us to keep the puck in our own zone. For me, MAB creates a lot more offense in our own zone than in the other team zone...

and MAB as 3 goals in is last 25 games... he is -10 to in this span...
Exactly, he's creating offence alright, for the opposition. He needs to go.

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04-09-2010, 08:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
At last a man who speaks truths!

I have watched the last four games that MAB has played mainly on defence and he has been one of LEAST dangerous players out there, and one of the MOST often making a good defensive play and re-launching the attack.

I'm not kidding. Hamrlik is being beaten to the puck 20 times a game, Markov, Gill and O'Byrne of all people are too often getting burned pinching, Gorges is having a hard time dealing with the cycle, and Spacek has only played one of the four games, but Jaro was less bad last night than most of his blue line mates.

I'm in favour of icing the best team possible, and I don't care what language the player speaks. Right now, Marc-André Bergeron is playing with more heart and poise, and less panic and molasses in his skates than most of his colleagues. He is rarely beaten in his own zone and rarely caught up ice. Perhaps THIS is the kind of play that got him a +5 with the Wild last year. He doesn't have to only fire slapshots to be useful.

Keep him in the lineup, on defence. Next move, call up PK Subban.
Wow, we will never agree on anything. I seen MAB get caught several times in the 3rd alone last night. His play is poor.

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Old
04-09-2010, 08:44 AM
  #32
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he's not worth it IMO he throws off the balance of the fourth line which typically with Darche does some crashing, He's either gotta be the 6th defenseman or he's not playng at all, period, and frankly I like option B more then option A

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04-09-2010, 10:51 AM
  #33
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MAB is a plug on the PP. If the PP isn't producing, MAB isn't useful.

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Old
04-09-2010, 01:11 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by zx81 View Post
No I'm pissed because the bashing is totally unjustified and if you really think he's the reason they lost you need help...and ASAP.

MAB has been playing well recently and he's probably the last reason for the loss.

I could name at least 15 players who are playing like ***** right now.

HFB is a sad forum.
Always the same scapegoats...either the goalie or surprisingly a French Quebecer.
What’s sad about this forum? The fact that people don't agree with you? It's called an Opinion (like for example the other 29 GM's of the NHL opinion that MAB is not an NHL player ) we all have different one's

I'll admit I’m not a MAB fan, let me explain why:

a) He's weak, I like big defensemen who make opposing players pay when they cross the bleu line, go deep in our zone or stand in front of the net. It’s not about his size but more about the way he throws around his body, a guy like Gorges for example will still throw his body around and take some hard hits which I find MAB just doesn’t do at all. Bergeron on the other hand even when playing sound defensively will mostly just block a shot or stand between the player and the net swinging his stick(which isn’t all that bad but he’s just schooled too often)

b) His 1st pass, a lot of people like to rave about this skill of his 1st pass out of the D-zone but I find it attrocious. I consistantly notice him passing to players and putting them in vulnerable positions. For example he’ll pass the puck to Gomez or Gionta in the neutral zone while they are right infront of an opposing teams D or he’ll make a pass to a player who isn’t in position to accept it. The one that ticks me off the most is when he passes to a player in his feet or a couple of feet too far so that the player can not seemelessly carry the puck into the offensive zone.

c) His play on the offensive bleuline, He constently fumbles the puck at the bleuline causing odd man rushes for the other team.

d) His play on the 4th Line is attrocious plain and simple, no explanation required he just doesn't belong there.


Just my opinion but, like it or not, I would not keep this guy on my team as anything else but a 7th Defenceman. I’ll cover all my angles by saying that I’m an anglophone who believes there should be more francophones on the team because they understand what Les Glorieux mean to the city, so my opinion is definitely not influenced by a language debate.

edit: I'm not blaming him for team losing that would just be stupid but I do think he contributes to the reason we're a below average team.


Last edited by ScottFC: 04-09-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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Old
04-09-2010, 01:32 PM
  #35
FuriousBob
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Originally Posted by zx81 View Post
I'm not saying he has been awesome defensively all year.
What you said about turnovers is true but just not recently.
In the last 4 games he played some good defensive games.

They guy is +4 in the last 4 games...playing with a team that doesn't score goals.
Not too bad.
I haven't seen may turnovers in the D zone from him either in those games. I have seen a lot more from Josh and Ryan.

The only turnovers he made was when his shot was blocked but that should be expected.

I'm not saying he's a Norris candidate but to blame him for the losses is totally ******** (I know you did not blame him but OP did).
I have to say that what you are saying is true also, Lately he is not playing that bad but for me the goal of a hockey club is to go deep in the playoff and have at least a chance to win the stanley cup. The question I am asking to you is, do you see MAB playing on a cup contender? The only reason why I can see him play on a top 3 team is to help the PP (and play 2-3 minutes on ES) and that's all. I dont whant to see MAB playing 20 minutes on the HABS as this is a big sign that we won't win a cup. Unfortunately we dont have anyone better than him...

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Old
04-09-2010, 01:47 PM
  #36
DDs not undersized
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I love how MAB is branded as a turnover machine here.... It seems to be based mostly on his reputation instead of his actual play. Let's take a look at statistics.

GIVEAWAYS (2009-10) :

Hamrlik : 86
Spacek : 80
Gill : 75
Gorges : 54
Bergeron : 42
Markov : 33
Mara : 24
O'Byrne : 22

GIVEAWAYS PER 60 MINUTES OF ICETIME :

Gill : 6,1
Spacek : 5,02
Hamrlik : 4,95
Bergeron : 4,78
Gorges : 3,17
Markov : 3,15
Mara : 3,05
O'Byrne : 2,63

Conclusion : There is 3 worst defensemen for turnovers in Montreal. So if you're gonna blame Bergeron for turnovers, you should also blame Gill, Hamrlik and Spacek.

And O'Byrne stats are very impressive!!

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Old
04-09-2010, 02:04 PM
  #37
Watsatheo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
I love how MAB is branded as a turnover machine here.... It seems to be based mostly on his reputation instead of his actual play. Let's take a look at statistics.

GIVEAWAYS (2009-10) :

Hamrlik : 86
Spacek : 80
Gill : 75
Gorges : 54
Bergeron : 42
Markov : 33
Mara : 24
O'Byrne : 22

GIVEAWAYS PER 60 MINUTES OF ICETIME :

Gill : 6,1
Spacek : 5,02
Hamrlik : 4,95
Bergeron : 4,78
Gorges : 3,17
Markov : 3,15
Mara : 3,05
O'Byrne : 2,63

Conclusion : There is 3 worst defensemen for turnovers in Montreal. So if you're gonna blame Bergeron for turnovers, you should also blame Gill, Hamrlik and Spacek.

And O'Byrne stats are very impressive!!

Even strength goals for/against per 60 min of icetime would be a better indication imo. A lot of MAB's icetime is only PP (offensive zone) where there's less likely to be a bad defensive giveaway while Gill, Gorges, Hamrlik, and Spacek have a lot of PK icetime (defenseive zone) where it's more likely to have giveaways.

I think Gill and MAB both have issues even strength. Gill struggles when a player dumps the puck in and has speed while MAB defensive zone coverage is brutal. He shouldn't be a forward ever again. I wish Martin was able to double shift a forward on the 4th line and play 7 D situationally. But alas, it's too much to ask.

Well I did the math and like I thought, Gill and MAB are the least effective players when it comes to even strength when we look at Even strength goals for/against per 60 min of icetime:

NameESGFESGAESGF/60ESminESGA/60ESminDifferential
Markov 45353.392.640.75
Spacek 64532.832.340.49
Gorges 47442.051.920.13
Hamrlik 57572.462.46even
O'Byrne 23261.802.04-0.24
Gill 26351.542.07-0.53
M.A.B 22301.892.58-0.69
Quote:
Originally Posted by zx81 View Post
ROFL

Markov was on the ice for the first 2 Carolina goals playing with.....O'byrne. Funny you don't bash Ryan .
What, you think O'Byrne hasn't gotten enough bashing/infamy already?


Last edited by Watsatheo: 04-09-2010 at 02:53 PM.
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Old
04-09-2010, 02:11 PM
  #38
Joe Cole
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Originally Posted by HABSolutelyDbest View Post
What’s sad about this forum? The fact that people don't agree with you? It's called an Opinion (like for example the other 29 GM's of the NHL opinion that MAB is not an NHL player ) we all have different one's

I'll admit I’m not a MAB fan, let me explain why:

a) He's weak, I like big defensemen who make opposing players pay when they cross the bleu line, go deep in our zone or stand in front of the net. It’s not about his size but more about the way he throws around his body, a guy like Gorges for example will still throw his body around and take some hard hits which I find MAB just doesn’t do at all. Bergeron on the other hand even when playing sound defensively will mostly just block a shot or stand between the player and the net swinging his stick(which isn’t all that bad but he’s just schooled too often)

b) His 1st pass, a lot of people like to rave about this skill of his 1st pass out of the D-zone but I find it attrocious. I consistantly notice him passing to players and putting them in vulnerable positions. For example he’ll pass the puck to Gomez or Gionta in the neutral zone while they are right infront of an opposing teams D or he’ll make a pass to a player who isn’t in position to accept it. The one that ticks me off the most is when he passes to a player in his feet or a couple of feet too far so that the player can not seemelessly carry the puck into the offensive zone.

c) His play on the offensive bleuline, He constently fumbles the puck at the bleuline causing odd man rushes for the other team.

d) His play on the 4th Line is attrocious plain and simple, no explanation required he just doesn't belong there.


Just my opinion but, like it or not, I would not keep this guy on my team as anything else but a 7th Defenceman. I’ll cover all my angles by saying that I’m an anglophone who believes there should be more francophones on the team because they understand what Les Glorieux mean to the city, so my opinion is definitely not influenced by a language debate.

edit: I'm not blaming him for team losing that would just be stupid but I do think he contributes to the reason we're a below average team.
+1. "passing to players and putting them in vulnerable positions"

As well, it has been a long time since I have seen an NHL defenceman run away/scramble a play to avoid contact as much as him. In this regard, he is the 100% polar opposite of Gorges.

The fact that a guy who has a shot as awesome and proven as him has had 3 bottom tier teams bail on him has to tell you something. The season starts and the second top scoring D has 30 GM's pass him over.... this has to tell you something. The fact that a former coach, Lemaire, with a new team depleted on the blue line and limited offensive punch does not reach out to scoop him up at the beginning of the year...this has to tell you something. The fact that no other D that was available this past summer had anything near his stats, yet he did not find a home....again... that has to tell you something.

Guys that seem to like his play seem to repeat his stats alot. No denying, the guy has a rocket. But his overall reliability is not in question, that was answered this past summer.

Regarding the loss last night, the Habs did not lose that game because of him, but he should not be used in any example of good defensive play, or good transitional play. And the proof is not in the words of Hab fans, nor MTL media, it is on the ice and in the contracts given out in the off season.

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Old
04-09-2010, 02:14 PM
  #39
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he's not worth it IMO he throws off the balance of the fourth line which typically with Darche does some crashing, He's either gotta be the 6th defenseman or he's not playng at all, period, and frankly I like option B more then option A
My thoughts exactly. Either play MAB on defense or don't play him.

When he plays on the fourth line we're essentially rolling three effective lines + using him on D during the PP. I think it puts too much pressure on the rest of the forwards and tires everybody out too fast.

MAB has been doing a decent enough job, I don't think the problem is with him. The problem is team chemistry when he plays on the 4th.

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