HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Rink
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The Rink For the not so ready for prime-time players, coaches, referees, and the people that have to live with them. Discuss experiences in local leagues, coaching tips, equipment, and training.

How do you deal with a really bad linemate?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-09-2010, 03:13 PM
  #1
WhipNash27
Quattro!!
 
WhipNash27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westchester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 15,834
vCash: 500
How do you deal with a really bad linemate?

So we have a guy on my team, we play C league and this guy he's probably not even good enough for D league. Since he's friends with a bunch of guys and he was on the team before all of us, people don't want to kick him off.

Now last night and various other times in the past I got stuck on this guy's line. Now let me be the first to point out that I'm not claiming to be all that great. However, playing with this guy was the most frustrating experience ever. We were playing a team who was clearly superior to us in terms of individual skill. Most of their guys were probably kids who played in high school, most of them were young, very fast, could skate well with the puck, pass well, had good shots, etc. This was a team who dropped down from the division above us.

We actually got to the 3rd period tied 3-3 due to our goalie's heroics and the other team's lack of good defense (then the wheels fell off).

Anyway, every time my line was on the ice we were always pinned in our zone. The puck would end up on that guy's side and he would just swipe at it and turn it over. He can't shoot, he can't pass with any velocity. He couldn't keep up with us at all (I'm probably one of the top two or so fastest skaters on the team, he's definitely the slowest) and is just a turnover machine. We could never get possession of the puck in the offensive zone because it always felt like a 5 on 4 out there (maybe worse). We ended up scoring a goal on a turnover on the forecheck (my other linemate forced a turnover, I got the puck shot it, goalie saved, then the guy who forced the turnover put it in), otherwise, we had no offense whatsoever.

Anyway, enough of ranting, how does one deal with this type of player? I know I'm not good enough to just skate around everyone and do it myself and nor was my other linemate.

WhipNash27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:22 PM
  #2
Devil Dancer
Registered User
 
Devil Dancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 12,421
vCash: 500
If you aren't running the team and you aren't ready to move up a level, you're pretty much stuck. If it bothers you that much I'd quietly ask the captain to be placed on another line, but since you are playing C level you don't want to call the guy out if you can avoid it.

For the record I have two players just like that on my current team. As a result I decided to join a better league where players like that are less common, though I will also continue to play on my original team.

Devil Dancer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:26 PM
  #3
rinkrat22
Registered User
 
rinkrat22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 577
vCash: 500
Honestly, there isn't much you can do, other than find another team. if its beer league, (I'm assuming?) it is what it is. I run a pretty decent C league team I am one of the older guys, but I get buy from playing and coaching for a long time. we have a good mix of age and skill levels. We have a couple of early 20 somethings that played high level Jr hockey and if they werent midgets (5'6"ish and 145lbs) prolly could have played some minor pro. We also have some late 20 early 30's that try like hell and are fun to be around but never played any thing more than house league. This is a long way for me to tell you that, yes sometimes it gets frustrating, but its hust a reason to get away from the old lady and get some exercise. My young guys get mad sometimes because some of the guys dont understand what puck support means. And sometimes the weaker players get mad because the ringers dont always pass the puck. Both of them are right and I have to point out to all of them that they all have short comings.

The point I am trying to make is, enjoy your time and just worry about what you can control as a player. Otherwise change teams. One of the things I try to do when I am putting guys together is to put similar players together. I dont spread out my strength of players. I put the real ggod players together, and the worse players together. Then I just hope that the good guys are higher + than the weaker guys are -. Usually if you keep players together that are the same "speed" you're better off than guys of varying levels on the same line.

rinkrat22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:32 PM
  #4
jagged
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 77
vCash: 500
have you tried coaching him at all? telling him where to stand/look and etc... it goes a long way if you're actually trying to help someone out rather than secretly bashing them or asking to be put on another line.

jagged is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:43 PM
  #5
Pog Form
Registered User
 
Pog Form's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkrat22 View Post
One of the things I try to do when I am putting guys together is to put similar players together. I dont spread out my strength of players. I put the real ggod players together, and the worse players together. Then I just hope that the good guys are higher + than the weaker guys are -. Usually if you keep players together that are the same "speed" you're better off than guys of varying levels on the same line.
This is a great strategy for this level of hockey. Chances are the weaker players are aware of their own skill level and would probably have more fun playing with similar players anyway. Good safe way of keeping everyone happy. To the OP, I would speak with the organizer privately and suggest it.

Pog Form is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:43 PM
  #6
WhipNash27
Quattro!!
 
WhipNash27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Westchester, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 15,834
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jagged View Post
have you tried coaching him at all? telling him where to stand/look and etc... it goes a long way if you're actually trying to help someone out rather than secretly bashing them or asking to be put on another line.
Yeah, it's quite futile. Something as simple as covering the point man in the defensive zone turns into him wondering behind our net.

I've considered just switching teams, but I like the rest of the guys I play with, so it kind of sucks.

WhipNash27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:49 PM
  #7
Jarick
Doing Nothing
 
Jarick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: St Paul, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 24,987
vCash: 500
We've had one of those guys for three years now. Frustrating because he knows what he should be doing (hustling to loose pucks, covering the point man, getting open for a pass) and instead kind of floats in no man's land until we get possession, at which point he races behind the other team and calls for a pass.

I like the idea of same speed guys on one line, but we've often paired weaker and stronger guys to even it out. We're highly concerned with people working well together regardless of lines and everyone feeling like they've got a chance to score.

Sounds like next year though the slow guy and one other guy who refuses to play with him will both be gone. Kind of excited.

Jarick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 03:56 PM
  #8
Hockeyfan68
Registered User
 
Hockeyfan68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lewiston, ME USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
Sounds like a buddy biddy type of team from your description. I played for a team like that last summer and we finished up 1 and 15 .... and lost our playoff game because we had two weak dmen out there at the end of the clock in a tied game and they scored with 18 seconds left. Our summer league had only 8 teams so we got in by default which was odd I thought but whatever. I tried to explain to the guys who ran the team that we need some sort of system and they went on about not wanting to babysit blah blah.

We had about 4 or 5 guys who played pond hockey only and some of our first games couldn't even keep onside. I mean that is bad stuff. They were good freidns with the guys who ran the team .... so this relates to your situation.

It also sounds like your Dmen are not puck savvy as well? Making clears up the middle or cross ice maybe instead of carrying it with authority?

Usually problems in your own end start with a poor pass from the D after a face off win and obviously after a face off loss. But it is a team game so I guess the blame goes around to everyone.

Make sure you have a guy who can win face offs for one thing.

But seriously if it is this bad and you know they won't get rid of the guy then find another team. I did and am happier for it.

While winning isn't everything and having fun is the main goal I do not have as much fun playing with newbie players in beer league.

I also play pickup and shinny or coed and at those things I do not care. That distinction should be made. Those are my "to have fun and laugh" games. I pass to guys who cannot skate and encourage them by giving them a kudo when they did something right. "Thatta boy, nice pass".

Soooo pick your situation that matters to you in this instance. Tell them when you have decided why you are leaving and if they ask you to stay and changes will be made then great if not then that also tells you that things will never change and you will always be unhappy playing for them so leaving is the best thing to do. Sometimes that is all you have honestly.

Hockeyfan68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 04:05 PM
  #9
blueberrydanish
Registered User
 
blueberrydanish's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,371
vCash: 500
If you are comfortable enough with it, and he has a good attitude about things and doesn't take stuff too personal....just try giving him advice and tips etc to help him and you out.

If not then do as others are saying, move-up a league when ya can...maybe talk to your captain about being on a diff line although I know in beer leagues you just gotta go with who ya got might aggravate captain for you to ask to possibly be the only player to never play with him unless there are others like that then you may just be stuck playin with him here or there.

It is frustrating playing with players of much lower ability and sometimes seem like they are content with where they are at and don't really improve, but thats why it is recreational so not much you can do.

On a good note if they do ever score or make a great play you feel really excited for em. =]

Good luck

blueberrydanish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 04:33 PM
  #10
sbkbghockey
Registered User
 
sbkbghockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: at the ice rink, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 928
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueberrydanish View Post
If you are comfortable enough with it, and he has a good attitude about things and doesn't take stuff too personal....just try giving him advice and tips etc to help him and you out.

If not then do as others are saying, move-up a league when ya can...maybe talk to your captain about being on a diff line although I know in beer leagues you just gotta go with who ya got might aggravate captain for you to ask to possibly be the only player to never play with him unless there are others like that then you may just be stuck playin with him here or there.

It is frustrating playing with players of much lower ability and sometimes seem like they are content with where they are at and don't really improve, but thats why it is recreational so not much you can do.

On a good note if they do ever score or make a great play you feel really excited for em. =]

Good luck
That's the best option. it sucks having a player a lot lower than the rest of the team. BUT if they're working hard to improve and trying to learn and things it makes it easier. The worst players are cocky ones that think they're Crosby or Ovechkin but are actually the worst ones but take no advice!

sbkbghockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 04:33 PM
  #11
Escapades
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 63
vCash: 500
I prefer a teammate with no skill then a teammate with a bad attitude. Those locker room cancer guys are absolutely the worst.

Escapades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 04:43 PM
  #12
AIREAYE
Moderator
 
AIREAYE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Country: China
Posts: 3,788
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapades View Post
I prefer a teammate with no skill then a teammate with a bad attitude. Those locker room cancer guys are absolutely the worst.
LOL we had both types this season, some being both types at once... it was bad

AIREAYE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 05:46 PM
  #13
rinkrat22
Registered User
 
rinkrat22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 577
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
We've had one of those guys for three years now. Frustrating because he knows what he should be doing (hustling to loose pucks, covering the point man, getting open for a pass) and instead kind of floats in no man's land until we get possession, at which point he races behind the other team and calls for a pass.

I like the idea of same speed guys on one line, but we've often paired weaker and stronger guys to even it out. We're highly concerned with people working well together regardless of lines and everyone feeling like they've got a chance to score.

Sounds like next year though the slow guy and one other guy who refuses to play with him will both be gone. Kind of excited.
I used to do this, but what I've found is that the better guys end up frustrated because they end up not getting enough space. Our league most of the teams know each other pretty well, and will play a guy tight if he's the only threat. Our league director will even play teams from different levels if he thinks it will be a "good game". I have to say its a well run league and keeping the lines with the same skill levels together vs. a overall balance has worked well for us.(it helps that we have a good core of D men too!)

I should add we have a good group of fun guys that all get along really well. Yes guys will sometimes get on each other during the game, but the lockerroom is great.

rinkrat22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 06:00 PM
  #14
gluvhand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rockland County
Country: Greece
Posts: 966
vCash: 500
To the OP- I noticed you live in Westchester. Do you happen to play at WSA? I play there and have noticed that most of the teams at "C" and "over 40" have at least one of these players on the roster. I'm a goalie and agree it's frustrating as hell especially since our "shouldn't even be playing at this level" guy is full of advice and excuses in the locker room after the game. Good guy, just doesn't realize how bad he is, or doesn't care. Tight spot. I feel for ya.

gluvhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 06:18 PM
  #15
nystromshairstylist
Puck Control Master
 
nystromshairstylist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Deking past you
Country: Barbados
Posts: 782
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gluvhand View Post
To the OP- I noticed you live in Westchester. Do you happen to play at WSA? I play there and have noticed that most of the teams at "C" and "over 40" have at least one of these players on the roster. I'm a goalie and agree it's frustrating as hell especially since our "shouldn't even be playing at this level" guy is full of advice and excuses in the locker room after the game. Good guy, just doesn't realize how bad he is, or doesn't care. Tight spot. I feel for ya.
As an over-40 newbie, I just hope I'm not the scrub-type you are all referring to - I always try to skate hard, take super short shifts, stay in my position, etc.

I've also only played in open hockey and scrimmages with other adult beginners, so hopefully I haven't pissed off too many people.

What I'm hoping for is more rinks / leagues to offer an over-40 division for us fossils, though I did play with a few guys last week in their mid-40s who were stupendous...

nystromshairstylist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 06:40 PM
  #16
gluvhand
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Rockland County
Country: Greece
Posts: 966
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nystromshairstylist View Post
As an over-40 newbie, I just hope I'm not the scrub-type you are all referring to - I always try to skate hard, take super short shifts, stay in my position, etc.

I've also only played in open hockey and scrimmages with other adult beginners, so hopefully I haven't pissed off too many people.

What I'm hoping for is more rinks / leagues to offer an over-40 division for us fossils, though I did play with a few guys last week in their mid-40s who were stupendous...
I am in no way the most talented guy on my team but my point was more that the guy on my team always had an an excuse or criticism and was the least talented guy on the team. He often directly contributed to goals against or a loss. He's a line killer. If I was a good enough friend of his I would definetly have sat him down and suggested he played at a lower level. He played on the team for about 3 years and NEVER got better at any aspect of the game and worst at most.

gluvhand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-09-2010, 11:32 PM
  #17
Hockeyfan68
Registered User
 
Hockeyfan68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lewiston, ME USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,418
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nystromshairstylist View Post
As an over-40 newbie, I just hope I'm not the scrub-type you are all referring to - I always try to skate hard, take super short shifts, stay in my position, etc.

I've also only played in open hockey and scrimmages with other adult beginners, so hopefully I haven't pissed off too many people.

What I'm hoping for is more rinks / leagues to offer an over-40 division for us fossils, though I did play with a few guys last week in their mid-40s who were stupendous...
Sometimes a lack of skill with someone you play with is very frustrating depending on what he does.

Things that drive me crazy are the bonehead common sense plays like I gain the blue line (I play D) and have a winger trailing behind so I drop it back to the point where he is open to take my spot at the point and do something until I can rotate back there, he should carry the puck down the boards expecting me to get back in my position where he just was, even a give and go if he is unsure what to do like "here you take it i don't know what to do with it", not the best play depending on the sitch but better than nothing. The problem is he has his stick in the air and not on the ice, not skating and standing still, he wasn't looking for a pass and was watching something else .... not sure what, and the puck I drop back as a basic hockey play ends up as a 2 on 1 because he never reacted to an easy pass and it went past him by 6 inches in front of his skate toe.

If you do the basic fundamentals and make good plays in your own end then God bless you because it is rare for newbies to do that. I tip my cap to you for that.

I have only met a couple of them who had natural puck smarts.

I think it was Headcoach in here who stated what newbies do incorrectly the most is to always feel like they have to go forwards to the other team's goal on every play no matter the zone they are in.

No plays ever go back to the defense like they should with newbies on a center ice turnover, they treat it like a race to the other team's goal all the time and try to beat 2 guys at their blueline where if he had played it back to the D he could have made a pass to two open players in the neutral zone and attack with a 2 on 1.


The problem usually in their own end with getting into trouble is getting rid of it too quickly without realizing how much time they really have to make a play.

A new player takes a few years to get anywhere near respectable as a player.

Those teens you see flying around the rink and are good players have been playing for 10 years or more already at 17 years old. They didn't start last year, it takes a while to get good at hockey.

Hockeyfan68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-10-2010, 10:53 AM
  #18
noobman
Registered User
 
noobman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,636
vCash: 500
You help him out!

If you see him doing something wrong point it out to him on the bench. Make suggestions as to what he *could* have done instead. He'll learn, he'll become a better player, and he'll be a better linemate for you.

Remember that if you decide to start "mentoring" a guy in that way, you should also congratulate him when he makes a good play. You won't do any good if you keep beating him down without pointing out good plays he's made.

noobman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-10-2010, 02:50 PM
  #19
DogFoodEnforcer
Registered User
 
DogFoodEnforcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 301
vCash: 500
i had 2 similar guys on my team this year. it was the first year for the team, so we had to weed out the idiots and slackers.

one guy was either the stupidest human being to ever step onto the rink, or he was a really good actor. add to that his complete "wimpy" (would normally use a different word) demeanor. he would play 2 shifts, then get on the bench almost in tears because "his foot hurt". so he would sit there like peter griffin when he gets hit in the knee. he sits on the bench with his skates off massaging his feet going, "AHHHH....OWWWW....OWWWW....OMG IT HURTS SO MUCH....AHHHH..." for 10 minutes. then when he got out on the ice he would never move his feet or play defence. at least he had some semblance of a shot, and could pass. it got to the point where we told him to stay home though.

another guy was completely useless. he's one of the cameramen at GM Place for canucks games. as my buddy says, "since he records hockey games for a living, he actually thinks he's an NHLer. dude cant skate, cant shoot, and cant pass. i had better skills when i played first year Tyke.lol. the best is when he comes into the room with pro stock eagle gloves and talks about how its going to improve his skills "out there". two weeks later he shows up with one of those nike sticks with the holes in it. he walks in and says, "boys...i just got this new stick. it said im guaranteed to have a faster shot! look at the holes!! it makes it aerodynamic and sh**!!!" he went out for that game and touched the puck once...and lost it.

thank god for teh olympics. he worked recording the hockey at GM Place, and (thankfully) never made it to another game once the olympics finished.

DogFoodEnforcer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 08:35 PM
  #20
Defgarden
Registered User
 
Defgarden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Loma Linda, CA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,827
vCash: 500
Speaking as someone with very little experience, I'd hate that feeling of being the guy that drags people's sense of fun down because of my lack of skill. But, I do appreciate any help and advice I can get. I'd probably go that route. If the guy you speak of isn't willing to listen to your advice, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Defgarden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 08:49 PM
  #21
Pierre Gotye
Registered User
 
Pierre Gotye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: McKinney, TX
Country: United States
Posts: 4,014
vCash: 500
Rec league teams can be difficult.

I have played on some bad teams. Some guys might be casual hockey fans, but they don't have the brain or skill to do what they need to do. Some guys are just hard-headed and you can't tell them anything. Others are fat lazy oafs who can't skate or do much.

My current team is probably the best overall so far, but I have some concerns about our goalie 5'10 maybe 275 pounds. Old and slow. One player could be better but he takes too long of a shift and wanders around too much on the ice, it drives me nuts.

Another guy has improved but can't seem to GTFO of the way when the person from our team is trying to move the puck up the ice. That drives me nuts too.

Pierre Gotye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 08:57 PM
  #22
Frankie Spankie
Registered User
 
Frankie Spankie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dorchester, MA
Country: United States
Posts: 10,486
vCash: 500
I'd say talk to the captain about the lines. The one league I play in that actually has set lines usually puts the lower guys with the highest skilled guys just to keep the lines balanced and not to make them as much of a liability.

I hate teams like that though, regarding the team you were playing. In one of my leagues, before somebody else took over and balanced the teams, it was a family of kids that all played in one of the best high schools in the area. The rest of the teams have one-two players as good as anybody in their family. It sucked playing them because they won the championship like 3 times a year out of 4 seasons. I'll never understand why players play in leagues that they simply don't belong in.

Frankie Spankie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 09:20 PM
  #23
The Tikkanen
Pest
 
The Tikkanen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Yorba Linda
Country: United States
Posts: 6,551
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to The Tikkanen
I've been playing hockey for 16 years so if there are players who I don't think belong on the team I'm on then I will change teams. Some people will be beginners no matter how long they play hockey, they lack talent. Some people don't care about getting better, they play on teams to get out of the house/get away from the wife and kids. The bottom line for me is I can't go around team to team forcing people to suddenly learn how to play hockey. If I'm not happy with anybody on my teams then I'll switch teams after the season is over.

The Tikkanen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 11:16 PM
  #24
adaminnj
Leafs out = SPRING!
 
adaminnj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Pickering ON & N-NJ
Country: Canada
Posts: 671
vCash: 588
I'm not a good hockey player at all but I have some hockey sense and I do improve every-time I go out to skate even if it's only little bits It's noticeable. sometimes not to me but the guys I skate with notice.

Anyway I'm going to be the E+ level skater on a C+ team in Sept and I was invited to join this team by a few of the guys who are starting the team in some church league. Some of the guys are hyper completive and I worried that I'll be the guy being posted about some day soon.

Dose this guy pay to play? and are you going to actually win money of fame if you have the best record for the season or end of season tournament? I do understand wanting to win but this is house league and having fun is just as important right?

If this guy you are complaining about has been on the team for a long as you say you might do well to move on. But if your ream mates all feel the same way as you then maybe you ought to talk to him in a small group and nonconfrontational (as a hockey egos can be).

I have skated with some great guys even at pickup so I have yet to deal with ego, or over motivative player yet.
Good luck dealing.

adaminnj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2010, 11:40 PM
  #25
Beerfish
Registered User
 
Beerfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,271
vCash: 500
Just about every team you play on will have a 'worst' player. Just play you best and let others worry about saying something to him or moving him around. It can be annoying for sure but just enjoy the guys you are playing with or if anything I'd bring it up with other members of the team before talking to him.

Now if you want to really suffer have a goalie on your team who is also perhaps the worst player on the team. Through a lot of my youth hockey career (9 to 15) I played on teams where invariably the coaches son was the goalie and in most cases the guy stunk. (I'm holding a grudge because goal was in fact my best position, I had some real talent but I never got the chance to play goal due to this.....yeah I'm old and bitter. )

Beerfish is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:13 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.