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How Rare Are Pure Snipers?

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Old
04-11-2010, 01:39 PM
  #26
Tim Vezina Thomas
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Ovechkin does not play D, I don't know how you can say that he does. Backchecking is anathema to him, but with the way he plays you can look past it, usually. Stamkos and Gaborik at least skate in their own end and make an effort.
Ok well Defense wasn't exactly my point if you look above, someone else mentioned it.

I was just saying that Are we talking about Kovi/Kessel type snipers or Ovi/Crosby snipers? Completely different animals.

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04-11-2010, 01:40 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
Ok well Defense wasn't exactly my point if you look above, someone else mentioned it.

I was just saying that Are we talking about Kovi/Kessel type snipers or Ovi/Crosby snipers? Completely different animals.
I think we're talking about Kovi/kessel type snipers.

Ovie and Crosby are in a whole league of their own.

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04-11-2010, 01:48 PM
  #28
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Because Teams built around pure snipers are also fatally flawed and poorly constructed by design. Pure goal scorers become the focus of Teams who then focus on getting playmakers and supporting cast that can get those pure goal scorers the puck more.. Leafs plan no different this Summer to try and build up Kessel to score more goals by seeking a playmaking linemate.
Speculation on your part Mess. Burke says he wants a winger, and we could speculate a set up man, or someone who goes hard to the net and opens up room for Kessel. They may also be looking for a top quality defensive guy to complement him. They might be happy with Kulemin-Bozak-Kessel, or Kulemin-Kadri-Kessel. Once again you point out what you think Burke will do whether it is legitamate or not. Kessel didn't really miss his playmaking center, so maybe that isn't the focus. Maybe Burke wants to build up the 2nd line to give them balance. Maybe he'll just focus on 3rd line guys. Maybe he'll add another sniper to form a dynamic goal scoring line with 2 snipers, because say what you want against Kessel he's a good setup man himself. It's really the biggest surprise in Kessel's game for me is his passing ability. And with Kessel's speed, he can become a decent defender. He is only 22 you know.

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04-11-2010, 01:53 PM
  #29
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1-2 per draft. Sometimes you get none and even more rare drafts will produce 3. On avg I would say 1.5 per draft

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04-11-2010, 01:54 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Vezina Thomas View Post
By pure snipers do you mean people that are only average in other parts of their game like Kovalchuk, Gaborik and Kessel? Or do you mean pure snipers who have everything in their game like Oveckin, Crosby, Stamkos etc.?

All im saying is I find it difficult to put Kovalchuk Gaborik and Kessel in the same "sniper" category as Ovy.
ill go even further and say kessel does not belong in this group at all....36 goals followed by 30 goals is a top tier sniper? since when? maybe in a few years kessel will be here..stamkos is a beast...3rd youngest player to score 50 ever.


he will be the new perennial rocket richard trophy winner...move over ovie....

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04-11-2010, 01:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
I just don't think scoring ability should be downplayed by pointing out a bunch of non-playoff teams with snipers on them, those teams all have two way forwards as well, and are no better off for it.
your agreeing with us without meaning to. you need a strong line up from top to bottom, and that doesn't mean super stars but good players who buy into a team game. very rarely does a single player win on his own , goaltending aside. even crosby last year doesn't win the cup without malkin's efforts. i personally think the play makers are more important as they make everyone on the ice dangerous but most gm's would opt for the goal scorer.

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04-11-2010, 02:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Ovechkin does not play D, I don't know how you can say that he does. Backchecking is anathema to him, but with the way he plays you can look past it, usually. Stamkos and Gaborik at least skate in their own end and make an effort.
when you can control a game like ov...win scoring titles yearly,,,put up 50 goals yearly..throw punishing body checks like ov..who cares if you backcheck? does anyone here think gretzky or lemiex were "complete" players? IMO Crosby is the most complete player of our generation making him the best player in the world...

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04-11-2010, 02:35 PM
  #33
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Look at how many cups players like Selanne have won and how many players like Yzerman have won.

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04-11-2010, 04:15 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by s h a n Y e View Post
Look at how many cups players like Selanne have won and how many players like Yzerman have won.
Then look at the teams they played on and the conclusion =

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04-11-2010, 09:21 PM
  #35
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Good point. There are very few players who are 'one shot' goal-scorers, a term I've been hearing lately. I'd only argue for Vanek, Gaborik, Kovalchuk, Ovechkin, Semin and Kessel, maybe Heatley, Elias, etc.. not many top-end - when you look back, there were guys like Selanne and Bure, again; not many..

I'd rather have an Eric Staal/Jonathan Toews on my team first though..

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04-11-2010, 10:06 PM
  #36
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Dustin Penner is better than Phil Kessel.

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04-11-2010, 11:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by studebaker17 View Post
your agreeing with us without meaning to. you need a strong line up from top to bottom, and that doesn't mean super stars but good players who buy into a team game. very rarely does a single player win on his own , goaltending aside. even crosby last year doesn't win the cup without malkin's efforts. i personally think the play makers are more important as they make everyone on the ice dangerous but most gm's would opt for the goal scorer.
I'm not disagreeing, if that's what you mean. I just think Mess' point is ill conceived. Goal scoring is every bit as important to a team as defensive play, though one of the two cannot be coached.

anyway, I totally agree that high end playmaking is the rarest commodity. playmaking defenseman, now that's gold.

Kulemin is a good example of what a smart player with good coaching can accomplish. I think we'll see the same progression in Bozak next year.

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04-11-2010, 11:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
I'm curious, and just for discussion sake ... I'm talking about those natural goal scorers along the Temuu Selanne / Brett Hull type .... guys where 30 goals in 82 games is an "off" year ...

I could just be ignorant, but looking around the league - and taking away the generational superstars like Ovy, Stamkos and Crosby ... how many are there really? I can think of Heatly, Kovy, "glass" Gaborik, Nash, and Kessel, and .... who?

It seems a rare comodity ...

Does that make a sniper more valuable than a solid 2 way centre who seems easier to obtain, or is it that a pure smiper is a "nice to have", and not necessary for success?
A lot of people have this connotation that a "2 way centre" lacks skill. But there is absolutely nothing to say you can't be a terrific defensive and offensive player a la Datsyuk. Too me when someone says Pure Sniper, it's usually someone who is one dimentional and isn't quite as good as playmaking or the defensive end of the game (Otherwise they'd be called great hockey players a la Crosby). So I'd see a 'Pure Sniper' as kind of the other half of a 'Defensive Forward'.

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04-12-2010, 11:17 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
I'm curious, and just for discussion sake ... I'm talking about those natural goal scorers along the Temuu Selanne / Brett Hull type .... guys where 30 goals in 82 games is an "off" year ...

I could just be ignorant, but looking around the league - and taking away the generational superstars like Ovy, Stamkos and Crosby ... how many are there really? I can think of Heatly, Kovy, "glass" Gaborik, Nash, and Kessel, and .... who?

It seems a rare comodity ...

Does that make a sniper more valuable than a solid 2 way centre who seems easier to obtain, or is it that a pure smiper is a "nice to have", and not necessary for success?
HRMM, Carter,Hossa,Iggy,Malkin,Lecav, St Louis, Boyes,Vanek,Paries,Staal,Eriksson,Cammi,Alfie, Zett,Marl,Semin,Ryan just to name a few that score with the likes of Kessel.

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04-12-2010, 11:32 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
How many of those pure snipers have been on Cup winning teams?

- Atlanta has played 1 playoff series in 10 years with Kovy scoring 50 goals ..
- Rick Nash Columbus Blue Jackets 1 playoff appearance in his 7 years..
- Atlanta never made the playoffs with Heatley and even Ottawa missed the playoffs last year with Heatley on board.
- Minnesota Wild missed the 5 of the 7 years with Gaborik on board.

- Leafs are #29 overall with Kessel, TB with Stamkos scoring 50 goals finished 26th, Columbus with Nash 24th overall, Atlanta with Kovy 22nd. NYR now with Gaborik fighting for their playoff lives in game #82 and currently also out of a playoff spot..

How come the majority of the Teams that deploy the pure snipers are among the NON Playoff teams on a regular basis including this season?

While a Team like Detroit is a perennial Cup contender and winner even, because of players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't only compete for scoring titles but also the winners and finalists for the Selke Trophy as best 2-way players in the NHL..
Sorry but there's more to look at than just that - that's a very basic and ignorant approach. One player cannot get a team into the playoffs. Look at how bad Washington was for a few years even though Ovy was potting 50 goals a season.

Maybe looking at the reason why they have those players. Why did Minnesota, Columbus and Atlanta get those 'super snipers'? Because they were ****ing terrible and drafted them with the first couple picks in whatever years draft. These players get put onto trash teams and it's up the GM to surround them with other players who are capable of helping the team into the post-season.

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04-12-2010, 11:36 AM
  #41
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You can win with snipers, and you can win without snipers. I don't see why it has to be either or.

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04-12-2010, 12:59 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
I'm curious, and just for discussion sake ... I'm talking about those natural goal scorers along the Temuu Selanne / Brett Hull type .... guys where 30 goals in 82 games is an "off" year ...

I could just be ignorant, but looking around the league - and taking away the generational superstars like Ovy, Stamkos and Crosby ... how many are there really? I can think of Heatly, Kovy, "glass" Gaborik, Nash, and Kessel, and .... who?

It seems a rare comodity ...

Does that make a sniper more valuable than a solid 2 way centre who seems easier to obtain, or is it that a pure smiper is a "nice to have", and not necessary for success?
how can you add Kessel into this group of players? 30 goals is a bad year for kessel now? he has never hit 40, I think that a player should have atleast 3 40 goal seasons before you can say a 30-35 goal season is a poor season. and players in this category are very few. and the only players who scored that many and would be considered a poor season would be Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Hossa. I believe they are the only players in the NHL currently in that have 3 40 goal seasons(And are not nearing the end of there careers) and to a less extent Gaborik who was on pace for like 4-6 40 goal seasons if he wasn't injuried, those are the only guys heading into an NHL season who should be considered a lock to score 40+ goals in the season barring injuries imo

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04-12-2010, 05:01 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
how can you add Kessel into this group of players? 30 goals is a bad year for kessel now? he has never hit 40, I think that a player should have atleast 3 40 goal seasons before you can say a 30-35 goal season is a poor season. and players in this category are very few. and the only players who scored that many and would be considered a poor season would be Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Heatley and Hossa. I believe they are the only players in the NHL currently in that have 3 40 goal seasons(And are not nearing the end of there careers) and to a less extent Gaborik who was on pace for like 4-6 40 goal seasons if he wasn't injuried, those are the only guys heading into an NHL season who should be considered a lock to score 40+ goals in the season barring injuries imo
Stamkos just scored more than 30 for the first time, so he's not a 40 goal guy?

and Kessel was on pace for 42 last year and 35 this year, similar exclusions to your Gaborik example should be made. so in theory, by your standards, unless a rookie comes out blazing, it takes at least 4 years to be considered a 40 goal player?

I should also remind you that Crosby has only one NHL season with more than 40 goals... this year. yet I would probably consider him a 40 goal guy... I think it's about capability. rare a player gets there.


edit:

so anyway, I've done some digging, perimeter digging anyway... it is really very rare a player gets 3 40+ goal seasons in this era! I think there are at least a dozen players in the league more than capable of doing it. Iginla only has 3 40+, Nash has two... Danny Alfredsson only has 2! This year, only 7 players had 40+, last year 8... it makes for a pretty exclusive list... Heck, even being a 30 goal player is pretty special it seems.
anyway, Kessel was the 13th best goal scorer in the NHL this year, and played less games than all but two of the top 30 players in goals.

we need Zeke to chime in on this...


Last edited by Zardoz: 04-12-2010 at 05:14 PM.
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Old
04-12-2010, 05:14 PM
  #44
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I don't understand why you guy wouldn't include PK88?
In my opinion the top would be:
THE TEEMU SELANNE!, Kovy, Semin, Parise, Gaborik, Kessel, Heatley, Stamkos (deserving), Bobby Ryan is coming into his own, Kopitar?, Partick Kane and many others.

It's tough to label someone as a sniper when most of them are just as good with passing the puck and creating plays.

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04-12-2010, 06:22 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by alcanalz View Post
Ovechkin does not play D, I don't know how you can say that he does. Backchecking is anathema to him, but with the way he plays you can look past it, usually. Stamkos and Gaborik at least skate in their own end and make an effort.
What ********.

Yet Ovechkin is a +45 this year. To compare, Crosby is only +15. Stamkos is -2. Gaborik is only +15, and he's got the best goaltender in the Eastern conference on the 10th best defensive in the league.

Yes, Ovechkin's best defensive plays are in the neutral & offensive zone, but they sure as hell count, and manifest as the league's best team record, and Ovechkin has by FAR the best +/- of any forward. The closest is Daniel Sedin with a +37.

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04-12-2010, 06:42 PM
  #46
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What ********.

Yet Ovechkin is a +45 this year. To compare, Crosby is only +15. Stamkos is -2. Gaborik is only +15, and he's got the best goaltender in the Eastern conference on the 10th best defensive in the league.

Yes, Ovechkin's best defensive plays are in the neutral & offensive zone, but they sure as hell count, and manifest as the league's best team record, and Ovechkin has by FAR the best +/- of any forward. The closest is Daniel Sedin with a +37.
All he does is wait next to the blueline for a pass.

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04-12-2010, 06:47 PM
  #47
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All he does is wait next to the blueline for a pass.
The statistics -- both +/- and wins -- tell a much different story.

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Old
04-12-2010, 07:13 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by TheProspector View Post
The statistics -- both +/- and wins -- tell a much different story.
Didn't a third liner named Hennessy once win the +/- one year?

I don't watch a lot of Caps games, but the ones I've watched show a player that only knows one side of the ice.

He is on an offensively stacked team, and he is the best offensive player in the NHL so I'd expect there to be a high +/- and lots of wins...that doesn't mean he is great defensively.

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04-12-2010, 07:17 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zardoz View Post
Stamkos just scored more than 30 for the first time, so he's not a 40 goal guy?

and Kessel was on pace for 42 last year and 35 this year, similar exclusions to your Gaborik example should be made. so in theory, by your standards, unless a rookie comes out blazing, it takes at least 4 years to be considered a 40 goal player?

I should also remind you that Crosby has only one NHL season with more than 40 goals... this year. yet I would probably consider him a 40 goal guy... I think it's about capability. rare a player gets there.


edit:

so anyway, I've done some digging, perimeter digging anyway... it is really very rare a player gets 3 40+ goal seasons in this era! I think there are at least a dozen players in the league more than capable of doing it. Iginla only has 3 40+, Nash has two... Danny Alfredsson only has 2! This year, only 7 players had 40+, last year 8... it makes for a pretty exclusive list... Heck, even being a 30 goal player is pretty special it seems.
anyway, Kessel was the 13th best goal scorer in the NHL this year, and played less games than all but two of the top 30 players in goals.

we need Zeke to chime in on this...
what I said was those players were the only players going into an NHL season that barring injury you are gaurenteed they will get 40, or they were having a bad season, which was the question. I never said Stamkos wont get 40 or that he is not a 40 goal scorer. alot of players have scored 40, including Stamkos, Parise, Marleau, Semin to name a couple but at the begining of the season you wouldn't put it down in pen that those guys will hit 40 goals for sure in 2010-2011 seasons, like you said 40 goal seasons are very rare. if Crosby ended up getting 35 goals next season you wouldn't consider that a bad season for sid because thats right around his normal season besides the current one. and thats what I was saying.

also being on pace and actually scoring 40 goals is alot different. I said to a lesser extent Gaborik meaning he's not quiet at the level of the others but given his history, he's hit 40 I think twice in his career and was on pace like 4 other times I think, which shows he can put up 40, year in and year out if healthy, 1 season of projected 40 goals and never hitting 40 is totally different in Kessels case. Kessel hasn't proved he can put up 40 goals in a single season yet end of story and you have no arguement saying he has, only way you can prove it is by doing it imo anyways I know others believe in projected stats as if there facts but I dont players could have been hot in the missed games or been cold nobody knows

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04-12-2010, 07:38 PM
  #50
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How many of those pure snipers have been on Cup winning teams?

- Atlanta has played 1 playoff series in 10 years with Kovy scoring 50 goals ..
- Rick Nash Columbus Blue Jackets 1 playoff appearance in his 7 years..
- Atlanta never made the playoffs with Heatley and even Ottawa missed the playoffs last year with Heatley on board.
- Minnesota Wild missed the 5 of the 7 years with Gaborik on board.

- Leafs are #29 overall with Kessel, TB with Stamkos scoring 50 goals finished 26th, Columbus with Nash 24th overall, Atlanta with Kovy 22nd. NYR now with Gaborik fighting for their playoff lives in game #82 and currently also out of a playoff spot..

How come the majority of the Teams that deploy the pure snipers are among the NON Playoff teams on a regular basis including this season?

While a Team like Detroit is a perennial Cup contender and winner even, because of players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't only compete for scoring titles but also the winners and finalists for the Selke Trophy as best 2-way players in the NHL..
The ultimate "pure sniper" was probably Mike Bossy. He was lethal around the net, and an integral part of the Islander dynasty that won four cups in a row. I'd say that worked out just fine.

Bossy had the luxury of playing on a line with Trottier and Gillies, with Potvin back at the point, and he just shredded goalies. Over an eight year stretch (from '79 to '86) he never scored less than 50 goals, and hit over 60 in five of those years.

Burke went after Kessel for one reason: To score goals. Lots of goals. It's that simple. Kessel will do his part. Burke's challenge now is to acquire the right guys to play with him. Hopefully he finds a legitimate power forward over the summer, and Kadri becomes the go-to player we all hope he will turn out to be.

Let Phil do his thing: Use his speed and anticipation to stretch defenses and find the openings. With his hard, accurate shot and quick release, he has the potential to score a lot more than 30 or 36 goals.

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