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Old
04-11-2010, 11:26 PM
  #176
mlugia
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DamoSpin (Damien Cox)
Isles, Thrashers, Lightning, Panthers, Blue Jax, Oilers - tell me again how being annually lousy, getting high picks leads to promised land.

Food for thought.

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Old
04-12-2010, 12:51 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
DamoSpin (Damien Cox)
Isles, Thrashers, Lightning, Panthers, Blue Jax, Oilers - tell me again how being annually lousy, getting high picks leads to promised land.

Food for thought.
lol sometimes I don't like Damo that much but gotta love that he doesn't ever hold back

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Old
04-12-2010, 01:27 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
DamoSpin (Damien Cox)
Isles, Thrashers, Lightning, Panthers, Blue Jax, Oilers - tell me again how being annually lousy, getting high picks leads to promised land.

Food for thought.
The last time the Oilers had a top 5 pick was in 1994.

Since 1997 Edmonton has only drafted below 13 twice.

Cox is an idiot.

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04-12-2010, 01:35 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
DamoSpin (Damien Cox)
Isles, Thrashers, Lightning, Panthers, Blue Jax, Oilers - tell me again how being annually lousy, getting high picks leads to promised land.

Food for thought.
Having a top pick enables you to draft impact talent. The rest is in the hand of your scouting staff. If you've compiled a solid scouting staff then they'll pluck out the good picks for you, even if they seem reaches on draft day.

Atlanta drafted Kovalchuk, who IMO, is a first-tier talent in the NHL. Waddel could have built a great team around him had he found a goaltender, a nice defense and a good supporting cast. He had countless years to do that but failed.

One needs an opportunity, IMO, to make out big. Having a very high draft pick in the NHL provides that.

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Old
04-12-2010, 04:16 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by The Slave View Post
Having a top pick enables you to draft impact talent. The rest is in the hand of your scouting staff. If you've compiled a solid scouting staff then they'll pluck out the good picks for you, even if they seem reaches on draft day.

Atlanta drafted Kovalchuk, who IMO, is a first-tier talent in the NHL. Waddel could have built a great team around him had he found a goaltender, a nice defense and a good supporting cast. He had countless years to do that but failed.

One needs an opportunity, IMO, to make out big. Having a very high draft pick in the NHL provides that.
Valabik and Lehtonen were both high picks, and satisfies that need. Picks aren't sure things. It helps, of course, but I think in this case Cox is saying picks aren't the only way, or even a sure way to build a winner, which is something I'd agree with.

Of course, having high picks would be even better, but what's to say that guy doesn't end up being Gagner and regress?

Also, getting Dion Phaneuf is another way to get that opportunity to make it big, IMO. Not sure how many here would agree, but that trade made my season.

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04-12-2010, 04:25 AM
  #181
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dude both the phaneuf and giggy trades made my season. in the giggy trade it was addition by subtraction (but he's a good goalie and i like him anyway).

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04-12-2010, 08:39 AM
  #182
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The trades made in and around the trade deadline were very good trades. Hard to argue with Phaneuf and we finally have a normal veteran goalie here since Belfour/Joseph. Toskala seemed always pissed about something. I have never witnessed such a fragile personality in pro sports before but unloading him and that other idiot Blake was a good move. What did JFJ give that guy? 5Mill/year? What a joke that was.

I want to remain on record saying I want Jordan Stall on this team. I bet he could be that big #1 centre that we are missing and keep guys from beating up on Kadri and Bozak.

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Old
04-12-2010, 08:50 AM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlugia View Post
Valabik and Lehtonen were both high picks, and satisfies that need. Picks aren't sure things. It helps, of course, but I think in this case Cox is saying picks aren't the only way, or even a sure way to build a winner, which is something I'd agree with.

Of course, having high picks would be even better, but what's to say that guy doesn't end up being Gagner and regress?

Also, getting Dion Phaneuf is another way to get that opportunity to make it big, IMO. Not sure how many here would agree, but that trade made my season.
neither of those goalies did squat for Atlanta. So no, Don waddell did not get a good goalie in ATL.

Guy paid Rod Hainsey 5-6 million a year too.

Atlanta was put together so poorly.

St. Louis has a cup...

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Old
04-12-2010, 09:35 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Kadri Fan View Post
Just to clear this obsession with the draft:

Stanley Cup Champions since 2000: Amount of top 10 picks they had in previous 5 years:

2000: New Jersey 1995: 0, 1996:Lance Ward, 1997: 0, 1998: 0 1999:0 Total: 1
2001: Colorado 1996: 0, 1997: 0, 1998: 0 1999: 0 2000: 0 Total: 0
2002: Detroit 1997: 0, 1998: 0 1999: 0 2000: 0 2001:0 Total: 0
2003: New Jersey 1998: 0 1999: 0 2000: 0 2001: 0 2002: 0 Total 0
2004: Tampa Bay 1999: 0 2000: Nikita Alexeev 2001: Alexander Svitov 2002: 0 2003: 0 Total: 2
2005: N/A
2006: Carolina 2001: 0 2002: 0 2003: Eric Staal 2004: Andrew Ladd 2005: Jack Johnson Total:3
2007: Anaheim 2002: Joffrey Lupul 2003: 0 2004:Ladislav Smid 2005: Bobby Ryan 2006: Total: 3
2008: Detroit 2003: 0 2004: 0 2005: 0 2006: 0 2007: 0 Total :0
2009: Pittsburgh 2004: Malkin 2005: Crosby 2006: J.Staal 2007: 0 2008: 0 Total: 3

Recap:
Of the past 10 cup Champs, only Pittsburgh got their key players through the draft from previous 5 years, and Carolina got Eric Staal. Pittsbugh also got extremely lucky to get the #1 pick again in the lockout year and it gave them consecutive years of Crosby and Malkin based on 1 bad season.

The bold ones are busts who had no top 10 impact on their team.
Ladd isn't a huge bust but didn't have an impact on the Carolina cup, neither did Jack Johnson. Bobby Ryan wasn't in NHL yet, Lupul was not a huge factor.

Detroit won 2 cups without a single top 10 pick in any draft in the past 10+ years. A lot of those years they didn't have a first round pick at all.

New Jersey won 2 cups with only 1 pick that turned out to be the powerhouse Lance Ward...

Bottom line: Drafting high is not the only way to win a cup just because Pittsburgh did it.
LKF is this some kind of joke ? Why are you only looking back 5 years, most picks don't make much of an impact till their 3rd season. To even hint that Col did not benefit from the assets they gained through the draft is ridiculous.

Using your system IF Wash won the cup this year then Ovi would not be on your list.

Wash 2010 cup champs, Ovi draft 2004.

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Old
04-12-2010, 09:48 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
For a guy that complains about this team not building with players picked at the top end of the draft, you sure seem to be ignoring the fact we have Kessel (5th overall), Phaneuf (9th overall), Schenn (5th overall), and coming soon Nazem Kadri (7th overall). Sure, we didn't select two of those guys, but who cares?
You do make a somewhat valid point. I take issue with the extra cost involved, with Kessel and Schenn.

If my math is correct those two players cost us 7 draft slots in the first three rounds.

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Old
04-12-2010, 11:58 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
LKF is this some kind of joke ? Why are you only looking back 5 years, most picks don't make much of an impact till their 3rd season. To even hint that Col did not benefit from the assets they gained through the draft is ridiculous.

Using your system IF Wash won the cup this year then Ovi would not be on your list.

Wash 2010 cup champs, Ovi draft 2004.
You're absolutely right, draft picks going back even 10-15 years are still crucial in team success.

But the point of my post was to show that this notion that "the only way to be successful and win a cup is to draft high for a few years and get high end prospects" is false. Because Pittsburgh is in everyone's recent memory right now, people seem to think the only way to build a winner is by drafting high and getting generational talents.

Look at Detroit especially, they built an entire dynasty through proper late round selections and occasional free agent signings around Yzerman. They havn't had a high first round pick since the 80's. And even after Stevey Y retired, they didn't miss a beat because Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both late round picks) were able to take over.

And its not like the Leafs don't have any first round picks, as the post above me mentioned, we have Kessel(5) Schenn (5) Phaneuf(9) Kadri(7). Just because they are not #1 overalls, does not mean we can't build a successful team around those pieces.

A competent GM and team who makes the proper signings and trades, as well as intelligent late round picks is a lot better to have and will build you a winner sooner than a GM and team which consistently gets high picks and fails to get results (Columbus, Florida, Atlanta, and to a lesser extent Islanders).

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Old
04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by daveleaf View Post
He should have blew it up when he got here. Refrained from signing expensive free agents and built through the draft. Rolled back ticket prices nominally and told people we need to do this right but he is changing on the fly. We would have all still gone to the game, bought the jerseys and followed them every game. This team is blown up but no high pics to help the franchise move forward. That is the whole idea. Finish near the bottom and have a chance at a top player to help rebuild a franchise. Guys that lead their teams to mulitiple stanley cup appearances come from the top of the board.
Completely agree, and I thought that was the game plan all along. Nobody is doubting Kessel isnt a good player, but the deal Burke made was far too risky for a team in the position that we were in. Just about every Leaf fan around, had bought into the idea we were going to be patient and build through the draft. I want the Leafs to make the playoffs, but I also want them to make it with the potential to advance and be a contender. There is little point in sneaking into 8th spot and getting hammered in the first round.

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Old
04-12-2010, 01:13 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Kadri Fan View Post
You're absolutely right, draft picks going back even 10-15 years are still crucial in team success.

But the point of my post was to show that this notion that "the only way to be successful and win a cup is to draft high for a few years and get high end prospects" is false. Because Pittsburgh is in everyone's recent memory right now, people seem to think the only way to build a winner is by drafting high and getting generational talents.

Look at Detroit especially, they built an entire dynasty through proper late round selections and occasional free agent signings around Yzerman. They havn't had a high first round pick since the 80's. And even after Stevey Y retired, they didn't miss a beat because Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both late round picks) were able to take over.

And its not like the Leafs don't have any first round picks, as the post above me mentioned, we have Kessel(5) Schenn (5) Phaneuf(9) Kadri(7). Just because they are not #1 overalls, does not mean we can't build a successful team around those pieces.

A competent GM and team who makes the proper signings and trades, as well as intelligent late round picks is a lot better to have and will build you a winner sooner than a GM and team which consistently gets high picks and fails to get results (Columbus, Florida, Atlanta, and to a lesser extent Islanders).
Burke could have increased our chances of getting better quicker, by using the free agent route and managing the cap wisely. Trading draft picks is NOT the way to go.

I liken draft picks to spending too much money on credit. They are your safeguard in the event something goes wrong and things dont turn out as planned. By doing it this way, it catches up to you eventually.

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Old
04-12-2010, 09:36 PM
  #189
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If my math is correct those two players cost us 7 draft slots in the first three rounds.
And therein we find the rightfull reason why people b*tch about that trade. In this NHL cap world so much of a GMs work centers around asset management. Buying high and selling low won`t cut if you are coming from behind. Burke might have hit a homerun with Phaneuf and done a great job on the FA aquisitions of Monster/Bozak. But he also grossly overpaid on other occasions.

All in all it looks like two steps forward - one step back. Walking in the right direction yet taking wrong turns in the meanwhile (for ill advised reasons).

I am with Daveleaf in that a lot of it starts to smell and feel like the "same old, same old". Mind you. In a better looking way. I can cheer for these youngsters. Yet Burke`s hasty rush (why oh why?) to better things might have already capped the ceiling of this team. If so it`ll hurt even more as he could/should have known better (unlike JFJ). The more and more I get the feeling he is the right GM at the wrong time for the Leafs.

Repeating the same mistake stings harsher in a fan`s heart.


Last edited by KLM-Line: 04-12-2010 at 09:41 PM.
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Old
04-13-2010, 09:29 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Lebanese Kadri Fan View Post
You're absolutely right, draft picks going back even 10-15 years are still crucial in team success.

But the point of my post was to show that this notion that "the only way to be successful and win a cup is to draft high for a few years and get high end prospects" is false. Because Pittsburgh is in everyone's recent memory right now, people seem to think the only way to build a winner is by drafting high and getting generational talents.

Look at Detroit especially, they built an entire dynasty through proper late round selections and occasional free agent signings around Yzerman. They havn't had a high first round pick since the 80's. And even after Stevey Y retired, they didn't miss a beat because Datsyuk and Zetterberg (both late round picks) were able to take over.

And its not like the Leafs don't have any first round picks, as the post above me mentioned, we have Kessel(5) Schenn (5) Phaneuf(9) Kadri(7). Just because they are not #1 overalls, does not mean we can't build a successful team around those pieces.

A competent GM and team who makes the proper signings and trades, as well as intelligent late round picks is a lot better to have and will build you a winner sooner than a GM and team which consistently gets high picks and fails to get results (Columbus, Florida, Atlanta, and to a lesser extent Islanders).
I'm sorry but i think your missing the point. There are few if any that are saying drafting your own players is the only thing the team should do or that it's a guarantied success.

Research shows that far more teams have won the cup in the last 35 years due to stars acquired with top picks and added depth with acquired additional 1rst and 2nd round picks.

The rare oddities that are Det and Pitt are not the franchises that should be boasted about.

The ridiculous skill/luck of the Det and Pitt drafts are nowhere near repeatable.

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