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Old
04-14-2010, 12:31 PM
  #51
azrok22
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Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Speaking of $8m+ nooses. Look, I'm with you on the priorities and I do believe that Richards can play. But a crippling contract is a crippling contract. Dallas isn't in position to take money back.

I still firmly believe that defense is our #1 issue... remove the bad and establish some good.



These guys might not need centers, but Stanley Cup contenders do. Crosby, Datsuk, Backstrom, Staal, Lecavilier, Getzlaf... elite centers and the Stanley Cup go hand in hand. Two prolific wings with a no name riding shot gun gets you first round losses like Hossa/Kovalchuk or Selanne/Kariya. A servicable center leaves you just short like Langkow in Calgary or Langenbrunner in NJ.
There's more elite centers than there are elite wingers. That's why there's more teams winning the cup built upon elite centers. You also need to look at the rest of the team... comparing Hossa/Kovalchuk (without looking at the rest of Atlanta's lineup) to Zetterberg/Dasyuk (without looking at the rest of Detroit's lineup) is quite disingenuous.

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04-14-2010, 12:33 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by drewcon40 View Post
I agree with the need for a #1 center for Gaborik. Ironically, 10 years ago, we had the exact opposite need. We had an aging, yet productive Wayne Gretzky who was still a great center and could have used an elite winger to bury Wayne Gretzky's passes. (Remember the Pavel Bure rumors?)
What does a #1C turn Gaborik into? A 50g scorer? Maybe. A 60g scorer? Unlikely, but an addition of 20g at best.

Kovalchuk or another elite winger adds 40g+.

What we need is an elite talent, what forward position he plays doesn't matter.

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04-14-2010, 12:41 PM
  #53
nyranger61494
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Ok, let's say you magically acquire Joe Thornton without giving anything up.

Under your "better" way of building a team.
Thornton pops say 20g and turns Gaborik into a 60g scorer (unlikely, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt). Thornton also makes one other forward that he plays with every shift better.

Your lines:
XXX - Thornton - Gaborik
XXX - XXX - XXX

So Gaborik and his #1c scored a combined 80g and made one other player on the ice better by benefiting with playing with them.

Under my "asinine" way to build a hockey team.
My lines:
XXX - XXX - Gaborik
Kovalchuk - XXX - XXX
So Gaborik and Kovalchuk scored a combined 80g and made four other player on the ice better.

Gaborik has his line, pops 40g and makes the two players he plays with better.
Kovalchuk has his line, pops 40g and makes the two players he plays with better.

My way involves giving up no assets and signing an UFA, but your way is "better" and my way is "asinine." Ok.
Tell me one team that has won the Stanley Cup constructed like that. Or a team that has even been a consistent contender constructed like that. You are looking at it strictly with an eye towards next year. I am looking with an eye towards the next few years. Kovalchuk and Hossa playing with a bunch of guys worse than them work? Easy 1st round playoff ouster. Kovalchuk and Heatley? Lecavalier and St Louis post-lockout without the likes of a Richards? They finished in 30th.

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Old
04-14-2010, 12:53 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyranger61494 View Post
Tell me one team that has won the Stanley Cup constructed like that. Or a team that has even been a consistent contender constructed like that. You are looking at it strictly with an eye towards next year. I am looking with an eye towards the next few years. Kovalchuk and Hossa playing with a bunch of guys worse than them work? Easy 1st round playoff ouster. Kovalchuk and Heatley? Lecavalier and St Louis post-lockout without the likes of a Richards? They finished in 30th.

I disagree the difference with those 1st round exit rosters like kovy/heatley or hossa , st louis and lecavalier is that they didnt have a Henrik, Which we do, Kovalchuk will score 40+ for 10 more years no matter who he plays with and thats for certain. We might not even draft a guy with that talent in the next 10 years, this isnt drury or redden we are paying big bucks to...sign him like the hawks did with hossa so his cap hit will be from 6.5-7 and get it done

Imagine the PP with gaborik and kovy on it and MDZ feeding it to either side. We could run and umbrella PP with both snipers on each off wing...wow im drooling

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04-14-2010, 01:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by nyranger61494 View Post
Tell me one team that has won the Stanley Cup constructed like that. Or a team that has even been a consistent contender constructed like that. You are looking at it strictly with an eye towards next year. I am looking with an eye towards the next few years. Kovalchuk and Hossa playing with a bunch of guys worse than them work? Easy 1st round playoff ouster. Kovalchuk and Heatley? Lecavalier and St Louis post-lockout without the likes of a Richards? They finished in 30th.
There isn't a sufficient sample of teams built around two elite wings because there just aren't as many elite wings as centers.

Atlanta is really the only one since the lockout and the rest of that team was pathetic

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04-14-2010, 01:08 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by BrianLeetch2 View Post
I disagree the difference with those 1st round exit rosters like kovy/heatley or hossa , st louis and lecavalier is that they didnt have a Henrik, Which we do, Kovalchuk will score 40+ for 10 more years no matter who he plays with and thats for certain. We might not even draft a guy with that talent in the next 10 years, this isnt drury or redden we are paying big bucks to...sign him like the hawks did with hossa so his cap hit will be from 6.5-7 and get it done

Imagine the PP with gaborik and kovy on it and MDZ feeding it to either side. We could run and umbrella PP with both snipers on each off wing...wow im drooling
We have those guys on the roster though. This is a cap world. Until we put Redden into exile, thats committing one hell of a lot of money to 5 players. Do not compare us to the Blackhawks. That's a team that was in the conference finals last year. We are not in their realm where adding that piece may make us Cup champions. They did it the correct way. Built from the back out through their own players and added high-end talent, skilled vets.

It is because of Lundqvist that we will never completely stink. But I asked about teams that competed for the Cup or won the Cup. That won't happen constructing a team like this.

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04-14-2010, 01:13 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by nyranger61494 View Post
We have those guys on the roster though. This is a cap world. Until we put Redden into exile, thats committing one hell of a lot of money to 5 players. Do not compare us to the Blackhawks. That's a team that was in the conference finals last year. We are not in their realm where adding that piece may make us Cup champions. They did it the correct way. Built from the back out through their own players and added high-end talent, skilled vets.

It is because of Lundqvist that we will never completely stink. But I asked about teams that competed for the Cup or won the Cup. That won't happen constructing a team like this.
Anyone advocating signing Kovalchuk is advocating waiving Redden
It is impossible otherwise.

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04-14-2010, 01:15 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyranger61494 View Post
We have those guys on the roster though. This is a cap world. Until we put Redden into exile, thats committing one hell of a lot of money to 5 players. Do not compare us to the Blackhawks. That's a team that was in the conference finals last year. We are not in their realm where adding that piece may make us Cup champions. They did it the correct way. Built from the back out through their own players and added high-end talent, skilled vets.

It is because of Lundqvist that we will never completely stink. But I asked about teams that competed for the Cup or won the Cup. That won't happen constructing a team like this.
I wasnt comparing us to chicago just comparing the contract chicago offered and signed hossa to....ANd getting Kovalchuck wont make us SC contenders but it puts us closer to it and its a fix now and for the future. If we draft a guy like johanson or burmistrov this year along with a guy like stepan and anisimov already here its nice to bring up rookies with bonafide superstars on the wing.

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Old
04-14-2010, 01:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Anyone advocating signing Kovalchuk is advocating waiving Redden
It is impossible otherwise.
Fair. The team is going to be pretty thin doling out that money with/out Redden. This is just not the way to build a consistently competitive team.

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Old
04-14-2010, 01:17 PM
  #60
CHGoalie27
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ARTYUKHIN, HOLMSTROM(man in front finally? I wish Voros recreated his first month as a Ranger) PISANI, JURCINA, PAETSCH, SEIDENBERG, VOLCHENKOV

LEAVE AULD ALONE....or get Moose.

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Old
04-14-2010, 01:22 PM
  #61
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Artyukhin takes Boyle's place
Holmstrom will never leave Detroit but I can wish...
Pisani takes Jokinen's place
Jurcina takes Redden's place
Seidenberg or Volchenkov to take Girardi's place
(I forgot)Coliacovo or Paetsch to take Rozsival's place.

...we have Henrik Lundqvist...

Cup.

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04-14-2010, 01:26 PM
  #62
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Theres no mathematically correct way to win a stanley cup. You need the proper blend of guys to do so.

You could say that you need a great goalie but weve seen teams get by without one such as Detroit and IMO Pittsburgh.

We've seen teams get by with competent but not all-star caliber centers such as the ducks with Andy Mcdonald.

What you need is consistent scoring threats, and a fairly good defense.

If the Rangers were to have Kovalchuk they would have two legit powerful top lines. Regardless of who else filled them out. Consider the fact that Dubinsky and Callahan would be on those lines and the two others could be average players and the lines would still be legit.

Furthermore, our defense would be pretty strong with Staal, DZ, Roszival and Girardi*. And of course Hank

People who think that there is a right way to build a team obviously haven't watched enough hockey. Often times, a centers numbers are inflated due to their wingers offense. Whose saying that Dubinsky won't net 60-70 points playing along side Kovalchuk. Or Christensen doing so with a full season next to Gaborik.

Every team has two scoring threats that does win and the
Rangers simply do not, this allows other teams to focus all their defense on one specific guy (Gaborik). They need to take some of the pressure off him and lay it on someone else. It's becoming hard to remember when the Rangers had a duo like Kovalchuk and Gaborik. Maybe Messier and Graves but even those two arent as dynamic.

It's a matter of meshing with a team full of depth talent. The Rangers have a lot of depth talent but need to fill it out with strong star players. We are well on our way there and with patience and smart FA signings this team can easily be a cup contender within 5 years.

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04-14-2010, 01:31 PM
  #63
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Girardi or Gilroy, whichever doesn't develop

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04-14-2010, 01:35 PM
  #64
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Volchenkov would be a great signing if he replaced Redden. Rangers would have a very good blueline next year if that happened. I am not sure if Torts would want Volchenkov though. He seems to want only offensive minded defensemen.

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04-14-2010, 01:38 PM
  #65
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Redden to Hartford

Rozsival at the draft for a descent F prospect and a 3rd(traded ours for Boyle)

That clears 3 million. Use that plus on Volchenkov. Sanguinetti makes the team. McD in Hartford on call. I would move Gilroy if he gets a good young player in return

Sign O'Brien for relatively cheap or even use Valatenko if they can get him in from Europe

Volchenkov, Del Zotto
Staal,Sanguinetti
O'Brien, Girardi
Ericksson

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04-14-2010, 01:38 PM
  #66
CHGoalie27
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I'd say there is a right way to build a team, just not start one.

The Rangers, each year since the lockout, has given up their top non-Henrik end of season standouts. Sykora then Nylander then Jagr/Avery then Betts and now maybe Shelley?

Well....there's obviously a wrong way to build a team if there is no right way.

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04-14-2010, 01:46 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Puckface Avery View Post
Langenbrunner has three cups
Haha plus he plays with Zajac who is a pretty damn good center.

I'll leave you guys with this quote though..

Quote:
“There are people out there who say he can’t make more than Sidney Crosby,” Grossman said, “but Sidney Crosby is not an unrestricted free agent.

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Old
04-14-2010, 01:49 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CHGoalie27 View Post
I'd say there is a right way to build a team, just not start one.

The Rangers, each year since the lockout, has given up their top non-Henrik end of season standouts. Sykora then Nylander then Jagr/Avery then Betts and now maybe Shelley?

Well....there's obviously a wrong way to build a team if there is no right way.
Sykora? An ancient and declining Nylander/Jagr?? Betts?? Shelley??? Youre seriously suggesting that letting these players go is a reason why we're not contenders??? One is more inconsiquential than the next.

Acquiring the wrong players is this teams problem, not letting the right ones go.

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04-14-2010, 01:52 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Who have gotten Gaborik and Kovalchuk the puck over their careers?

Walz, Christensen, Peverley, and Armstrong.
Top flite centers are overrated and overpaid.
How much winning did their teams do?

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04-14-2010, 02:00 PM
  #70
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Guys, get over it: there are no elite free agent centers available. We will not get Brad Richards without giving up a KEY young player which defeats the purpose. What is available in terms of elite talent is Kovalchuk. And that's it...
Brad Richards is a free agent in 2011. Dallas probably won't have the money to re-sign him. If we are smart this year, we'll be able to afford Richards. Joe Thorton will be UFA also, unless SJ locks him up before then.

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04-14-2010, 02:03 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Anyone advocating signing Kovalchuk is advocating waiving Redden
It is impossible otherwise.

Ok. I'm fine with that.

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Old
04-14-2010, 02:11 PM
  #72
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Sign KOVY

It's not everyday you see a player of his caliber become a UFA. This team couldn't score for their lives on many occasions throughout both this and last season.

Doit doit doit doit.

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Old
04-14-2010, 02:13 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
What does a #1C turn Gaborik into? A 50g scorer? Maybe. A 60g scorer? Unlikely, but an addition of 20g at best.

Kovalchuk or another elite winger adds 40g+.

What we need is an elite talent, what forward position he plays doesn't matter.
Kovalchuk would replace Prospal. Prospal had 20 goals. The net is.....20g.

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04-14-2010, 02:23 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Kovalchuk would replace Prospal. Prospal had 20 goals. The net is.....20g.
those extra 20 goals would hae gotten us post season and prob a 1st round win(6th seed play Buf) Kovy is a lock at 40+ for the next 10 years.....do whatever it takes and sign him it will only improve us for now and the future....we can still develop our young guys and guys like grachev stepan kreider and whoever we take at 10th will come through the ranks with star talent(Gaborik and Kovalchuk) to play along side of to help their devlopment

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04-14-2010, 02:28 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
How much winning did their teams do?
So they would shoot up to 70 goal scorers with Brad Richards on their line. cmon.

Team doesnt need an overpaid center this offseason. You look at marleau, Plekanec and you have potential disasters.

Im not even on the Kovalchuk bandwagon and id rather have two star winger playing with complementary players like Christensen and Dubinsky, than go out and spend money trying to find the perfect first line center for Gaborik.

Remember when we did that with Jagr?

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