HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Redden looks like a goner, Avery maybe

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-16-2010, 10:10 PM
  #251
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,473
vCash: 500
to understand the difference in Prust and Avery you need to look at the team as a whole. Prust will likely not score more points than Avery in a season. He will also play less minutes and not play on the PP. He will mostly be on a fourth line. Avery, to be successful points-wise, does need a bit more ice time. He does need the PP time to be successful. The point trying to be made, I believe, is that this team is better off having as its agitator Prust, who is on a fourth line, contributing more than other fourth liners, and who brings it every shift while not getting his team in trouble while replacing Avery with another 10 goal scorer, at even strength, on a third line and replacing his PP minutes with another top six player. The whole package is what would be better than having Avery in the lineup. At least I believe that is what is the argument, as opposed to taking goals scored by one and goals scored by the other and ended the argument there. Apples and oranges.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 07:50 AM
  #252
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
This season Chris Drury had 158:07 minutes of PP time.
Sean Avery had 82:54 a little more than HALF the PP ice time that Drury got.
The thing that your side constantly ignores is that better players get more ice time. That's a positive, not a negative.

chosen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 08:45 AM
  #253
NYRangers09
Registered User
 
NYRangers09's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
The thing that your side constantly ignores is that better players get more ice time. That's a positive, not a negative.
But it is damn near impossible to argue that avery wouldn't have surpassed drury's point totals by a solid amount if the ice times were swapped so avery is the better offensive player at this point.

NYRangers09 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 09:06 AM
  #254
polako
Registered User
 
polako's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Country: Lebanon
Posts: 1,178
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
This season Chris Drury had 158:07 minutes of PP time.
Sean Avery had 82:54 a little more than HALF the PP ice time that Drury got.
Please note that Avery had 1 more power play point than Drury did, while playing a little more than half the ice time.

Chris Drury got 979 minutes of Every Strength time.
Sean Avery got 840:09 minutes of Even Strength time...the equivalent of over 2 complete games worth less for Avery
For all that extra ice time, Drury scored exactly 1 more even strength point than Avery did.

Drury got far more desirable ice time than Avery did, and Avery still outperformed him on a points/minute played basis...all while making 5 million bucks less against the cap.
You're preaching to the choir, my man.

polako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 10:11 AM
  #255
haohmaru
boomshakalaka
 
haohmaru's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fleming Island, Fl
Country: United States
Posts: 6,506
vCash: 500
Why are we even arguing about this? I want both of these guys (Prust & Avery) on the team and comparing Avery to Drury is just asinine. They are completely different players.

haohmaru is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 10:16 AM
  #256
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRangers09 View Post
But it is damn near impossible to argue that avery wouldn't have surpassed drury's point totals by a solid amount if the ice times were swapped so avery is the better offensive player at this point.
I'll put it in a direct question:

Why doesn't Avery get more ice time if the accepted belief is that he will produce and make it worth the while of the team, and make them win more games?

Is there sabotage at work?

Is there a conspiracy going on?

Why wouldn't the Rangers want to give themselves a better chance of winning by playing Avery more?

Why wouldn't any team put their personnel out that they feel is their best?

Clearly, management disagrees with you on how much ice time to give him. That is one thing that we know is a stone-cold fact.

chosen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 11:43 AM
  #257
rangerfan_79
Registered User
 
rangerfan_79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 541
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to rangerfan_79
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I'll put it in a direct question:

Why doesn't Avery get more ice time if the accepted belief is that he will produce and make it worth the while of the team, and make them win more games?

Is there sabotage at work?

Is there a conspiracy going on?

Why wouldn't the Rangers want to give themselves a better chance of winning by playing Avery more?

Why wouldn't any team put their personnel out that they feel is their best?

Clearly, management disagrees with you on how much ice time to give him. That is one thing that we know is a stone-cold fact.

In one of tort's interviews he was of the opinion that Avery's playing quality diminished if he got too much playing time. They wanted quality over quantity.

At the time of that interview he was actually right.

rangerfan_79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 12:29 PM
  #258
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerfan_79 View Post
In one of tort's interviews he was of the opinion that Avery's playing quality diminished if he got too much playing time. They wanted quality over quantity.

At the time of that interview he was actually right.
I'm not sure I've ever heard that said about a professional athlete. Isn't that an indictment of Avery by his coach? Are there any other players that are treated similarly?

chosen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 12:43 PM
  #259
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 24,602
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
I'm not sure I've ever heard that said about a professional athlete. Isn't that an indictment of Avery by his coach? Are there any other players that are treated similarly?
Seriously? Do you follow other sports? Bench guys in baseball, they platoon and start every couple of days because their managers feel playing every day overexposes them and they become less effective. Sixth men in basketball. Defensive lineman in football. Really? I could go on.

__________________

It's just pain.
nyr2k2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 12:50 PM
  #260
Hockify
Registered User
 
Hockify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I just don't have any interest in seeing Wade Redden mentor the next 4 years of Ranger defensive prospects or eat up a roster spot while he sulks up and down the ice, a la Patrick Rissmiller.
Doesn't the AHL have a salary cap too? If so Redden's salary would sure eat up a lot of it.

Hockify is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 01:02 PM
  #261
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Seriously? Do you follow other sports? Bench guys in baseball, they platoon and start every couple of days because their managers feel playing every day overexposes them and they become less effective. Sixth men in basketball. Defensive lineman in football. Really? I could go on.
Really? Do you not understand that you just made the case against playing Avery more?

Most of his supporters have stated clearly in this thread that he should be on the ice more than he is.

Glad to see that you disagree with them and realize his shortcomings but I've never heard you express that his ice time should be kept on the low end and that he is best used as he was this year. Thanks for clearing that up.

By the way, bench guys in baseball, sixth men in basketball and defensive linemen who don't start are all considered to be less effective than those that play more than they do.

This is as basic a concept of the understanding of sports as can be. It goes back to when we were kids in the schoolyard. The better players play more. The worse players play less. You really didn't know that? I am surprised.

chosen is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 01:02 PM
  #262
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 24,602
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockify View Post
Doesn't the AHL have a salary cap too? If so Redden's salary would sure eat up a lot of it.
Negative. No cap down there.

nyr2k2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 01:10 PM
  #263
nyr2k2
Can't Beat Him
 
nyr2k2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Washington, DC
Country: United States
Posts: 24,602
vCash: 50
Awards:
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Really? Do you not understand that you just made the case against playing Avery more?

Most of his supporters have stated clearly in this thread that he should be on the ice more than he is.

Glad to see that you disagree with them and realize his shortcomings but I've never heard you express that his ice time should be kept on the low end and that he is best used as he was this year. Thanks for clearing that up.

By the way, bench guys in baseball, sixth men in basketball and defensive linemen who don't start are all considered to be less effective than those that play more than they do.

This is as basic a concept of the understanding of sports as can be. It goes back to when we were kids in the schoolyard. The better players play more. The worse players play less. You really didn't know that? I am surprised.
I don't care what case I made. I haven't advocated for playing Avery more. I think he's fine with 13 minutes or so per night, it's a perfect role for him. You've never heard me "express that his ice time should be kept on the low end?" Great. Have you ever heard me express the opposite? No, because I've never said it.

As far as your last two paragraphs, you're off base. The Sixth Man award, as given in the NBA, look at the players that win...they're some excellent players. Many of them have been starters and All Stars both before and after winning the award. They're not thought of as less effective players, they're considered excellent players that maximize their effectiveness by contributing off the bench or in short spurts.

The same goes for a guy like Kris Jenkins in the NFL. He doesn't play every snap. If he does, he wears down and his game becomes less effective. Same goes for rush linebackers that post gaudy sack totals but only play half the defensive snaps. It's about maximizing their talent.

The same goes for subs that come off the bench in soccer. Guys that could easily start, but are extremely effective when they come to play only half a game.

So it's not a basic concept that goes back to the school yard. I'm surprised you wouldn't understand that.

nyr2k2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 01:47 PM
  #264
Hockify
Registered User
 
Hockify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Negative. No cap down there.
That's good to know.

Hockify is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 02:04 PM
  #265
rangerfan_79
Registered User
 
rangerfan_79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 541
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to rangerfan_79
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Really? Do you not understand that you just made the case against playing Avery more?

Most of his supporters have stated clearly in this thread that he should be on the ice more than he is.

Glad to see that you disagree with them and realize his shortcomings but I've never heard you express that his ice time should be kept on the low end and that he is best used as he was this year. Thanks for clearing that up.

By the way, bench guys in baseball, sixth men in basketball and defensive linemen who don't start are all considered to be less effective than those that play more than they do.

This is as basic a concept of the understanding of sports as can be. It goes back to when we were kids in the schoolyard. The better players play more. The worse players play less. You really didn't know that? I am surprised.

This reply is so off base its not even debate worthy.

IMO:
I would rather have Avery play a quality 12-16 minutes per game then a 20-24 minutes of less then stellar game.

In case you have not noticed, Avery does not play a finese or perimeter game so more then 16 minutes per game would affect the quality of any player that plays a similar game over the course of a full season.

rangerfan_79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 02:22 PM
  #266
nanook of new jersey
 
nanook of new jersey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: new jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 104
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to nanook of new jersey
can someone explain how washington got nylander go away, and if/how we can "nylander" redden?

nanook of new jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 02:42 PM
  #267
NYR510
Registered User
 
NYR510's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,883
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook of new jersey View Post
can someone explain how washington got nylander go away, and if/how we can "nylander" redden?
* October 21, 2009- Agrees to a two week conditioning reassignment with the Grand Rapids Griffins of the American Hockey League

* November 7, 2009- Placed on Waivers by the Washington Capitals.

* December 13, 2009- Assigned to the Grand Rapids Griffins (AHL). The Washington Capitals will continue to pay his salary, but his $4.875 million salary will not count towards the Capitals' salary cap.

* January 28, 2010— Reassigned from Grand Rapids (AHL) to Jokerit (SM-liiga).

NYR510 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 03:03 PM
  #268
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
 
n8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: san francisco
Country: United States
Posts: 7,435
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR510 View Post
* October 21, 2009- Agrees to a two week conditioning reassignment with the Grand Rapids Griffins of the American Hockey League

* November 7, 2009- Placed on Waivers by the Washington Capitals.

* December 13, 2009- Assigned to the Grand Rapids Griffins (AHL). The Washington Capitals will continue to pay his salary, but his $4.875 million salary will not count towards the Capitals' salary cap.

* January 28, 2010 Reassigned from Grand Rapids (AHL) to Jokerit (SM-liiga).
I wonder if Redden would be willing to play in Europe.

n8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 04:41 PM
  #269
beastly115
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,915
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I wonder if Redden would be willing to play in Europe.
Who cares? All he has to be willing to do is play in Hartford. Hell, even if he's not willing and doesn't report, he breaches his contract and he's done.

beastly115 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 05:02 PM
  #270
azrok22
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,473
vCash: 1738
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
Who cares? All he has to be willing to do is play in Hartford. Hell, even if he's not willing and doesn't report, he breaches his contract and he's done.
Yep. I wake up every morning and thank god that Redden doesn't have a NMC. We can get rid of him whenever we choose to, and he has no say in the matter.

azrok22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 05:14 PM
  #271
bobbop
Henrik & Pop
 
bobbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Suburban Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 5,140
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by n8 View Post
I wonder if Redden would be willing to play in Europe.
Guys, I've been telling you for months his choices are Hartfoird or Europe. He'll choose Europe. AMFYOYO.

bobbop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 05:18 PM
  #272
Wraparounds
Powerful Wizard
 
Wraparounds's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 8,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Guys, I've been telling you for months his choices are Hartfoird or Europe. He'll choose Europe. AMFYOYO.
Fine by me. HLVBB.

Wraparounds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-17-2010, 05:48 PM
  #273
McRanger23
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 149
vCash: 500
I have to say Redden is the worst hockey players i have ever seen. Everytime he is on the ice, you always see him making some kind of mental error that hurts the team. There is absolutely NO WAY hes on the team next year, i think Slats will bite the bullet and waive him.

As for Avery, comparisons with Prust and Drury are assinine. Neither player is anything like Avery. They have to keep Avery, he still has a chance to be a real good 3rd liner if he plays like he did against at points this season, like every game against Philly this year

McRanger23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2010, 10:35 AM
  #274
Hockify
Registered User
 
Hockify's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 1,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Yep. I wake up every morning and thank god that Redden doesn't have a NMC. We can get rid of him whenever we choose to, and he has no say in the matter.
You can be sure if-when the Rangers get rid of Redden this way players who come to the Rangers afterwards will be alot more likely to demand and get a NMC.

Hockify is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-18-2010, 10:37 AM
  #275
Fitzy
All Is Well
 
Fitzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 20,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockify View Post
You can be sure if-when the Rangers get rid of Redden this way players who come to the Rangers afterwards will be alot more likely to demand and get a NMC.
You're probably correct. Which is why a Redden-esque signing is not a offense that can be repeated again and again without consequences.

Fitzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:07 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.