HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Do you still believe ?

View Poll Results: Do you believe?
Yes 41 78.85%
No 11 21.15%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-19-2010, 03:31 PM
  #51
14ari13
Registered User
 
14ari13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Western Sahara
Country: Norway
Posts: 9,141
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
My opinion is based on the other 75% of the season, and I chalk up the post Olympic break as a "miracle run" of sorts. Really, a team that struggled to make the playoffs for most of the season (and spent much of that time on the outside looking in) should not be considered a favorite based on a quarter of the season. Injuries, fatigue, burnout... those are just excuses to explain away poor play. The level of this team's play has been in a marked decline for a while now, having peaked a couple seasons ago. Occasional defensive lapses have turned into "not showing up" for entire periods and games at a time.

If someone makes an objective assessment of the situation I think they'll agree with me. The roster isn't as deep, the stars are aging and less productive, and other teams have risen to a level that Detroit just isn't on anymore (although Phoenix is not one of those teams). It shouldn't be a surprise, then, if we lose in the first or second round.

Again, I think we can win this series but I don't think we ever should have been considered a favorite over the Coyotes. They have home ice, made some nice additions are the deadline, and have a good goalie (who basically won three rounds while in Anaheim). As I posted in the playoff speculation thread, I wasn't looking forward to playing any of our possible first round opponents. All of the top seeds in the West were capable of sending the Wings golfing early.



Well, I guess if you're hoping the team "wakes up" and starts to play like they did the last 20 games of the regular season then yeah, you could view my post as encouraging. However, I believe that the "miracle run" is over and the team has fallen back to their expected playing level. You have to admit, what we've seen in the last 3 games is a lot like what we saw from October to February, no? We could get hot again. I'm just not holding my breath.
I am not so sure about your assessment.
This team won the cup 2 years ago, then last year this team was just one game shy of winning it again. Then 3 years ago this team was in the conference finals.
Why do you think this team suddenly dropped off so much?
I think we all expected this series to be tough. I myself expected the Wings to win it in 7 and the most posters expected to go it 6 games. This is exactly what we are seeing. The Wings are the favourite in this series, but will have to bring their A game for 60 min to beat the Coyotes. That's it.

14ari13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 03:45 PM
  #52
Yemack
Registered User
 
Yemack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 6,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
"we're doing all the right things, we just need to keep it up and the puck will start going in the net". That's the death card right there, and you see that quote in the paper just before each time the Wings lose a 1st round series.
lol haven't heard that in a while.

Yemack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 03:53 PM
  #53
MrSandMan*
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,432
vCash: 500
Here's some excerpts of what's on Babcock's mind:

Quote:
"The neutral zone was an obstacle course for us, and we continued to turn over pucks," coach Mike Babcock said. "You turn over pucks and you look like you've got no energy and you are always chasing the game.

"That's how we played. We didn't skate and we didn't execute."

[...]

As Babcock said, though, that didn't cost the Wings the game. The Wings struggled in just about every aspect.

[...]

"Jimmy was like the rest of us," Babcock said. "Not good enough."
And what's on Bertuzzi's mind:

Quote:
"They're a good hockey team," Bertuzzi said. "They're ranked fourth for a reason. But we've got a lot better to give. We all know that and understand that and we have to make sure we have that for Game 4."

From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20100419/...#ixzz0la6kBvjV

MrSandMan* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 04:01 PM
  #54
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Pretty much. It's well known that Yzerman retired because he was too much of a ***** to go back to the gym.
Not the gym, the style. Shanny and Stevie both wanted to play the measured, controlled, deliberate puck-control style that had won them the first 3 Cups.

Babcock realized that that style of play was dead and that to win after the rule changes, a team had to be moving and pushing and on top of the other team the whole game. That meant more puck pursuit and less puck possession. The Wings could possess the puck all they want in the non-scoring areas, and the opposition wouldn't complain.

Stevie didn't want to battle defensemen for the puck in the corners on every shift. With all he had been through, I don't blame him.

Shanny wanted to camp in his one-timer spot and take passes. Grinding was not something he had a lot of interest in. Again, I don't blame him for it but the shift in philosophy had to be made.

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 04:32 PM
  #55
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Not the gym, the style. Shanny and Stevie both wanted to play the measured, controlled, deliberate puck-control style that had won them the first 3 Cups.

Babcock realized that that style of play was dead and that to win after the rule changes, a team had to be moving and pushing and on top of the other team the whole game. That meant more puck pursuit and less puck possession. The Wings could possess the puck all they want in the non-scoring areas, and the opposition wouldn't complain.

Stevie didn't want to battle defensemen for the puck in the corners on every shift. With all he had been through, I don't blame him.

Shanny wanted to camp in his one-timer spot and take passes. Grinding was not something he had a lot of interest in. Again, I don't blame him for it but the shift in philosophy had to be made.
Once again, what?

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 10:52 PM
  #56
chances14
Registered User
 
chances14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Michigan
Country: United States
Posts: 6,468
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Not the gym, the style. Shanny and Stevie both wanted to play the measured, controlled, deliberate puck-control style that had won them the first 3 Cups.

Babcock realized that that style of play was dead and that to win after the rule changes, a team had to be moving and pushing and on top of the other team the whole game. That meant more puck pursuit and less puck possession. The Wings could possess the puck all they want in the non-scoring areas, and the opposition wouldn't complain.

Stevie didn't want to battle defensemen for the puck in the corners on every shift. With all he had been through, I don't blame him.

Shanny wanted to camp in his one-timer spot and take passes. Grinding was not something he had a lot of interest in. Again, I don't blame him for it but the shift in philosophy had to be made.
do u have any proof about this or are u just making assumptions?

chances14 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 11:27 PM
  #57
GT500x
Im OK where we're at
 
GT500x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: My comfort zone
Country: United States
Posts: 2,663
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelTheOne View Post
Will the Red Wings win his series ?

I think they will step their game up, this team is too good to lose in first round.

Yes, I believe !

And you ?
You ****** right I believe.

GT500x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-19-2010, 11:30 PM
  #58
Reality Check
Registered User
 
Reality Check's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 11,126
vCash: 500
Sure.

However, I won't feel like it's the end of the world if they lose.

They're playing a damn good team and have to be gassed, to boot.

Can't win 'em all

Reality Check is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 09:08 AM
  #59
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
do u have any proof about this or are u just making assumptions?
It has been documented in several places, including this board. Lots of the old guard did not have the "compete level" that Babcock's system requires. Hull, Schneider and Lang were others that ended up leaving for the same reason, whether that was their decision or management's.

I could dig up some links but it's going back a long way and I'm lazy this morning. I'm pretty sure some folks around here can back me up. Stevie might have played another season but not in Babcock's system. It was very different from the style he had played his whole career.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Once again, what?
Puck possession = Carrying the puck over the blueline and trying to maintain possession at all times. Perimeter control inside the blueline until a lane opens up to the net.

Puck pursuit = Putting the puck in places where your forecheckers have the advantage and then driving the puck to the net with traffic. Making lanes to the net open up by force.

Puck possession is about going tape-to-tape on every pass, forcing the opposition to wear themselves out chasing the puck until a seam opens up and then exploiting the seam. Puck pursuit relies more on area passes to soft spots in the defensive coverage that your players can get to first, giving them space and speed to get to the net.

Babcock's system is flexible, and allows for puck possession when it's available. But that's the first thing opponents shut down in crunch time, so in the playoffs the Wings always end up in puck pursuit mode.

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 09:17 AM
  #60
doublejack
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Detroit
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,123
vCash: 500
I'll confirm that Stevie Y would probably have played another season if not for Babcock and his system (Yzerman had intended to at one point, anyway). Yzerman felt so out of place / underutilized that he was going to retire mid-season. Lang's injury on a West coast trip is the only reason Yzerman chose to play out the entire season.

If you think back to the final minute of game 6 against Edmonton, when we were down and needed a goal to keep the series alive... neither Yzerman nor Shanahan were on the ice. That says all you need to know about how they fit into Babcock's philosophy. They didn't.

doublejack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 10:16 AM
  #61
HockeyinHD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,939
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
My opinion is based on the other 75% of the season, and I chalk up the post Olympic break as a "miracle run" of sorts.
A 'miracle run' that Detroit has equaled or bettered in each of the last 7 years. Mother's Day again? What a miracle!

HockeyinHD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 10:16 AM
  #62
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
I'll confirm that Stevie Y would probably have played another season if not for Babcock and his system (Yzerman had intended to at one point, anyway). Yzerman felt so out of place / underutilized that he was going to retire mid-season. Lang's injury on a West coast trip is the only reason Yzerman chose to play out the entire season.

If you think back to the final minute of game 6 against Edmonton, when we were down and needed a goal to keep the series alive... neither Yzerman nor Shanahan were on the ice. That says all you need to know about how they fit into Babcock's philosophy. They didn't.
I agree with that but that is an issue of Yzerman and Shanahan being able to work in the new system, not them willing to change their style to adapt to the new system. I don't think at their age they had that ability any longer.

Sarcastro: I really don't agree with your assessment of how the team has played the past 4 years.

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 01:45 PM
  #63
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
I agree with that but that is an issue of Yzerman and Shanahan being able to work in the new system, not them willing to change their style to adapt to the new system. I don't think at their age they had that ability any longer.

Sarcastro: I really don't agree with your assessment of how the team has played the past 4 years.
You don't think that Babcock's system is a lot more like dump and chase or chip and chase than it is like puck possession in the Russian Five sense of the word?

Whenever Babs is talking about what they need to do better it's always "get in hard on the forecheck and pressure their D". That doesn't exactly jive with puck possession. Also, it seems like the players' habitually want to keep slipping back to puck possession and he has to keep ragging on them to push, dump, and forecheck.

I think Babcock's style emphasizes forechecking and dump and chase as much as possible - he just can't get them to do it every shift.

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 01:50 PM
  #64
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
You don't think that Babcock's system is a lot more like dump and chase or chip and chase than it is like puck possession in the Russian Five sense of the word?

Whenever Babs is talking about what they need to do better it's always "get in hard on the forecheck and pressure their D". That doesn't exactly jive with puck possession. Also, it seems like the players' habitually want to keep slipping back to puck possession and he has to keep ragging on them to push, dump, and forecheck.

I think Babcock's style emphasizes forechecking and dump and chase as much as possible - he just can't get them to do it every shift.
Sure Babs says he wants guys to go hard on their D, but what do you honestly see out there?

What won Detroit the cup in 08? Dump and chase style?

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 01:55 PM
  #65
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Sure Babs says he wants guys to go hard on their D, but what do you honestly see out there?

What won Detroit the cup in 08? Dump and chase style?
That 08 team were masters of the area pass. Other teams started taking away the blueline and sending their 5th man back to the corner so he'd be first on the dump-ins, so they adjusted and did more chip-passes along the boards, more flip-passes to open areas where they had forwards going with speed, that sort of thing.

Shutting down puck carrying teams at the blueline is the easiest thing to do in the playoffs.

It also helped that the Wings had the Hudler/Helm line that provided a speed/hands punch on the 4th line and potted some big goals without getting much ice time. This year's depth lines are more speed and size than speed and hands, and the size has yet to translate into offense.

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 02:15 PM
  #66
Eaglepride*
#5 in Wotan we trust
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Promiseland Walhalla
Posts: 3,503
vCash: 500
All we have to do playing like the last period in game 2: physical, crash the net and use our size speed as an advantage. If we come out flat again we're pretty much done for the season. I honestly don't see winning three in a row against them.

long story short: make or break game

Eaglepride* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 03:33 PM
  #67
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
That 08 team were masters of the area pass. Other teams started taking away the blueline and sending their 5th man back to the corner so he'd be first on the dump-ins, so they adjusted and did more chip-passes along the boards, more flip-passes to open areas where they had forwards going with speed, that sort of thing.
And in most cases the other team didn't get the puck. Possession is the key word. Detroit thrives on a game where they have the puck the majority of the game. They don't dump and chase, and the reason the team had so much trouble this season was they had to adapt to a dump and chase style due to the amount of less skilled pluggers they had in the lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Shutting down puck carrying teams at the blueline is the easiest thing to do in the playoffs.
Okay?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
It also helped that the Wings had the Hudler/Helm line that provided a speed/hands punch on the 4th line and potted some big goals without getting much ice time. This year's depth lines are more speed and size than speed and hands, and the size has yet to translate into offense.
Once again, okay?

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 03:38 PM
  #68
indiancompanion
Registered User
 
indiancompanion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Country: United States
Posts: 173
vCash: 500
I want to believe, but as I tell people "Its nice to want things" does not mean it will happen.

indiancompanion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 03:45 PM
  #69
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
And in most cases the other team didn't get the puck. Possession is the key word. Detroit thrives on a game where they have the puck the majority of the game. They don't dump and chase, and the reason the team had so much trouble this season was they had to adapt to a dump and chase style due to the amount of less skilled pluggers they had in the lineup.
To me anyway, puck possession means hanging onto the puck at all costs and carrying the puck into the offensive zone on someone's stick. If you're dumping the puck, it's not puck possession. That's how I define it anyway.

Puck possession = Russian 5 Hockey, and they never dumped the puck in. They would have played the whole game doing circles in the neutral zone against a strong enough trap.

sarcastro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
04-20-2010, 04:16 PM
  #70
ArGarBarGar
Global Moderator
Defense Please
 
ArGarBarGar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 25,024
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
To me anyway, puck possession means hanging onto the puck at all costs and carrying the puck into the offensive zone on someone's stick. If you're dumping the puck, it's not puck possession. That's how I define it anyway.

Puck possession = Russian 5 Hockey, and they never dumped the puck in. They would have played the whole game doing circles in the neutral zone against a strong enough trap.
To each his own, then.

ArGarBarGar is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.