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Old
04-24-2010, 10:47 AM
  #51
Haute Couturier
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Yes, I still want him gone. The fact that they completely lucked out to get their most favorable match up after their terrible post Olympic break doesn't suddenly make him a good GM.

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04-24-2010, 10:50 AM
  #52
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To the OP:

Ive stopped commenting on these threads because of the overall negativity here. There are some posters that are realistic, there are some that are more fair weather and you can see it game to game as far as their feelings towards the team, then there are a few that are ALWAYS down. We win 7-1 and they are talking about the lost faceoffs or the amounts of penalties we took. I see a lot of the third type on this thread.

WHEN MANY OF THE MAJOR HOCKEY PUBLICATIONS PREDICT THE FLYERS TO WIN THE CUP IN THE PRESEASON YOU CAN'T BE MAD AT THE GM OF THE FLYERS WHEN THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN.

All the Gm can be asked to do is make a good team on paper...half of you should be mad at Hartnell and Briere sucking, JVR and Giroux not stepping up, Carter, Gagne, Emery, Lieghton and Backlund getting injured. Any team putting out two complete 5 man line combos that we can and then still have a the rest of a line up we do should win.

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04-24-2010, 11:04 AM
  #53
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I never wanted to Fire Homer and still don't.

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04-24-2010, 11:21 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
To the OP:

Ive stopped commenting on these threads because of the overall negativity here. There are some posters that are realistic, there are some that are more fair weather and you can see it game to game as far as their feelings towards the team, then there are a few that are ALWAYS down. We win 7-1 and they are talking about the lost faceoffs or the amounts of penalties we took. I see a lot of the third type on this thread.

WHEN MANY OF THE MAJOR HOCKEY PUBLICATIONS PREDICT THE FLYERS TO WIN THE CUP IN THE PRESEASON YOU CAN'T BE MAD AT THE GM OF THE FLYERS WHEN THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN.

All the Gm can be asked to do is make a good team on paper...half of you should be mad at Hartnell and Briere sucking, JVR and Giroux not stepping up, Carter, Gagne, Emery, Lieghton and Backlund getting injured. Any team putting out two complete 5 man line combos that we can and then still have a the rest of a line up we do should win.
This is a really poor reason to say Homer is doing a good job, as those predictions are almost always inaccurate, and are largely derived of bizarre hype.

Additionally, no, the GM is not asked just to make a "good team on paper." If that was the case we'd ignore the season and just give out the Cup at the end of August. A good team on paper and 25 cents will buy you a 25 cent cup of coffee.

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04-24-2010, 11:40 AM
  #55
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Before coming into this thread I would have said I want homer gone, then I saw that inspirational video.

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04-24-2010, 11:42 AM
  #56
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To answer the question, yes.

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04-24-2010, 12:31 PM
  #57
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If everyone continues playing like absolute beasts and we make a long run, proving Homer's early season statement that this team is built for the playoffs true?

No, I don't want him gone immediately. I still want his job to be reviewed and better options to be looked at, though.

Just because Lappy got hit in the face with a puck does not mean Homer has done a great job. He assembled a great team on paper and was unfortunate that some of his gambles did not pay off (Emery was an abject failure, even Homer admits this.) He was, however, fortunate that Leighton and Boosh managed to play well above the level that either has displayed in the last 5 and 10 years, respectively, to drag us into the playoffs. And yes, once there, Betts, Lappy, Pronger and Timonen have led our crusade of stifling team defense and gotten the job done.

But because of this we're supposed to forgive the fact that we are totally without any cap flexibility due to the Jones' debacle (which could have seen Knuble still on our current roster or any number of other moves made at the deadline), and the fact that he seems to regularly handcuff himself?

Let's be honest, Homer has made a couple of shrewd moves, but he has also had some gigantic blunders.

His job should not be safe. If we keep this run going, give him a chance to prove that he really wants to stabilize the goaltending position....but really, anything less than a Cup after the Pronger trade is a failure given his goals this season. I'll accept a finals or ECF berth given the injuries, but if we get mopped up by a Wash or Pitts again, I'm going to proclaim it all a disaster.

That was a little rambling. In summation: If we make a long run, maybe I'll give him a chance with this offseason. If we get wiped out by Washington or Pittsburgh again, can him.

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04-24-2010, 12:53 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
This is a really poor reason to say Homer is doing a good job, as those predictions are almost always inaccurate, and are largely derived of bizarre hype.

Additionally, no, the GM is not asked just to make a "good team on paper." If that was the case we'd ignore the season and just give out the Cup at the end of August. A good team on paper and 25 cents will buy you a 25 cent cup of coffee.
Never said that whats on paper wins cups, simply that the GMs job is to make the best team on paper. Every now and then there a weird cases like the Sharks where its not working and you have to make your team at least different on paper.

Homer made a big move bringing in a top 5 D man in the league. Brought in a ton of grit that is needed in the playoffs.

Just because those predictions are inaccurate at the end of the year does not mean they are founded on nothing at all. Homer has made some mistakes but he has done a good job. Still can't believe people are blaming him for contracts too (not you) but Briere got UNDER his market value for his year of UFA coming off the best year of his career. He should play like he has the playoffs all year. Thats on him not Homer. Plus Harts deal is bad now because of his struggles but a gritty character guy that puts up close to 30 is worth 4.5. That said im pretty sure he has an injury. Its pretty dumb to say that a pro hockey player can t stand up on his skates because he sucks...

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04-24-2010, 01:00 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
Never said that whats on paper wins cups, simply that the GMs job is to make the best team on paper. Every now and then there a weird cases like the Sharks where its not working and you have to make your team at least different on paper.

Homer made a big move bringing in a top 5 D man in the league. Brought in a ton of grit that is needed in the playoffs.

Just because those predictions are inaccurate at the end of the year does not mean they are founded on nothing at all. Homer has made some mistakes but he has done a good job. Still can't believe people are blaming him for contracts too (not you) but Briere got UNDER his market value for his year of UFA coming off the best year of his career. He should play like he has the playoffs all year. Thats on him not Homer. Plus Harts deal is bad now because of his struggles but a gritty character guy that puts up close to 30 is worth 4.5. That said im pretty sure he has an injury. Its pretty dumb to say that a pro hockey player can t stand up on his skates because he sucks...
But that's just it, the GMs job isn't to make the best team "on paper," it's to make the best team. That's like picking up a "hot" transvestite in a dark bar, getting her/him back your place...taking off the pants and saying, "well, (s)he looked good at the bar, so no problem!"

While I agree that much of the Briere-contract criticism is completely devoid of appreciating the context of the time...it's also fair to note that Holmgren completely misread the development of Mike Richards and Jeff Carter at the same time.

Personally, I'm not nearly as negative about Hartnell as most...as I think he earns more of that contract than people think, particularly when he does the 25ish goals a year like you expect. (Note: I don't think Hartnell is injured, he's always had terrible balance for whatever reason.)

That being said...those are FAIR things to criticize a GM for, because they are his decisions.

The GMs job is create the best possible team on the ice that he can. What some publications say in August means absolutely squat. The team you construct "on paper," means absolutely squat.

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04-24-2010, 01:01 PM
  #60
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I wrote an article the other day where I likened the Holmgren hate to the beat writers theory that Richards and Pronger secretly want to kill each other; basically scapegoating and creating drama for the sake of just having an opinion of the situation.

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04-24-2010, 01:03 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I wrote an article the other day where I likened the Holmgren hate to the beat writers theory that Richards and Pronger secretly want to kill each other; basically scapegoating and creating drama for the sake of just having an opinion of the situation.
So, how is blasting Holmgren for the Randy Jones decision "scapegoating" him?

Was Mike Richards ripping Holmgren after the season (as subtly as he could possibly do it) scapegoating?

As per many of your other arguments...there are significant holes if you're saying people are making **** up. What can you do? Everything is roses in Shafer's world.

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04-24-2010, 01:05 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
But that's just it, the GMs job isn't to make the best team "on paper," it's to make the best team. That's like picking up a "hot" transvestite in a dark bar, getting her/him back your place...taking off the pants and saying, "well, (s)he looked good at the bar, so no problem!"

While I agree that much of the Briere-contract criticism is completely devoid of appreciating the context of the time...it's also fair to note that Holmgren completely misread the development of Mike Richards and Jeff Carter at the same time.

Personally, I'm not nearly as negative about Hartnell as most...as I think he earns more of that contract than people think, particularly when he does the 25ish goals a year like you expect. (Note: I don't think Hartnell is injured, he's always had terrible balance for whatever reason.)

That being said...those are FAIR things to criticize a GM for, because they are his decisions.

The GMs job is create the best possible team on the ice that he can. What some publications say in August means absolutely squat. The team you construct "on paper," means absolutely squat.
Yea don't get me wrong if we dont make the playoffs or we dont do well in the playoffs then GM should be looked at and evaluated. Its just that personally I think that he has done a good job and made a team that can compete when healthy. I am already looking to this offseason and see what he does. If the rumors of him going after a legit goalie are true than ill be happy. Im hoping its Harding personally.

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04-24-2010, 01:09 PM
  #63
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Also as a "side" note after watching that lappy piece I remember a cool thing that happened during a game towards the end of the year. Im sure all you have noticed a steady incline on the press that lappy gets and how each blocked shot adds to his allure. By the end of the year I guess the rest of the fans at the wach got it too. It was on a PK that lappy went down to block a shot. This time it was a normal block off the shin pads and cleared the puck. On his way to the bench he got a standing ovation from the fans and got high fives on the bench. It was as if we scored a goal. The cool thing was that it wasnt a particularly huge play, so you could tell it was more a cumulative "thank you" type thing.

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04-24-2010, 01:12 PM
  #64
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Lucked out

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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yes, I still want him gone. The fact that they completely lucked out to get their most favorable match up after their terrible post Olympic break doesn't suddenly make him a good GM.
I agree about catching the favorable match up.

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04-24-2010, 01:16 PM
  #65
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So, how is blasting Holmgren for the Randy Jones decision "scapegoating" him?

Was Mike Richards ripping Holmgren after the season (as subtly as he could possibly do it) scapegoating?

As per many of your other arguments...there are significant holes if you're saying people are making **** up. What can you do? Everything is roses in Shafer's world.
I never said that blasting him for the Randy Jones situation was wrong. Holmgren messed up, and that was obvious. Everyone saw it coming.

Why doesn't someone make a FULL list of every decision Holmgren has made since his arrival here, and examine them including the players?

This thread is all about crying, complaining, and thinking there is someone out there who is going to hand us the Stanley Cup every year because we deserve it. Little kids don't cry as much as this board.

There is no real analysis or back and forth here.

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04-24-2010, 01:28 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I never said that blasting him for the Randy Jones situation was wrong. Holmgren messed up, and that was obvious. Everyone saw it coming.
So, Holmgren has proven to be egregiously stupid. How about last year when he butchered our salary cap situation and gutted all of the depth on the team in the spring, so that our only deadline acquisition was to give up a 2nd and Upshall for Carcillo in a salary dump that failed to work (remember, we had an ATO defenseman on the ice for the goal that cost us home ice in the first round)?

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Why doesn't someone make a FULL list of every decision Holmgren has made since his arrival here, and examine them including the players?
Hey, you're a kind of professional hockey writer covering the Flyers... why don't you do that? That sounds like an article...this is a message board for discussion, not researched articles.

One I would LOVE to hear you justify is the trade for Steve Eminger and the resulting trades that followed.

To Flyers: Steve Eminger (RFA AT THE TIME!!!!) and 3rd (Jacob Deserres)
To Caps: 1st (John Carlson)

To Tampa (not even 4 months later): Steve Eminger, Steve Downie, + 4th
To Flyers: Matt Carle (definite cap problem because he was fit on LTIR space), SJ's 3rd (Simon Bertilsson)

To recap, Homer traded in a period of 4 months:

1st (John Carlson), Steve Downie (now a 20 goal scorer), 4th

for

Matt Carle, Simon Bertilsson, and Jacob Deserres

A series of deals that directly led to serious cap problems and ended up costing us depth at forward and D, and Carcillo wasn't remotely close to being the player then that he's developed into this season...

This is just one example. We can get into the Lupul contract situation at another time, if you'd like.

Quote:
This thread is all about crying, complaining, and thinking there is someone out there who is going to hand us the Stanley Cup every year because we deserve it. Little kids don't cry as much as this board.
If it's that bad, leave.

Quote:
There is no real analysis or back and forth here.
Well, disagree completely... but also appreciate it when you don't believe any critical analysis is legitimate analysis. Just crying. That's the problem with being a massive homer.

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04-24-2010, 01:38 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If it's that bad, leave.
I will right after this post. I won't post in here anymore.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, disagree completely... but also appreciate it when you don't believe any critical analysis is legitimate analysis. Just crying. That's the problem with being a massive homer.
My full analysis will come in the offseason after the playoffs if you want it so bad. I'm pretty busy from now on through the draft and free agency.

You just gave us the same two things that always get cited and skipped out on everything else. Continuously you cite the same couple bad things and miss out on every good thing he has done.

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04-24-2010, 01:39 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, Holmgren has proven to be egregiously stupid. How about last year when he butchered our salary cap situation and gutted all of the depth on the team in the spring, so that our only deadline acquisition was to give up a 2nd and Upshall for Carcillo in a salary dump that failed to work (remember, we had an ATO defenseman on the ice for the goal that cost us home ice in the first round)?



Hey, you're a kind of professional hockey writer covering the Flyers... why don't you do that? That sounds like an article...this is a message board for discussion, not researched articles.

One I would LOVE to hear you justify is the trade for Steve Eminger and the resulting trades that followed.

To Flyers: Steve Eminger (RFA AT THE TIME!!!!) and 3rd (Jacob Deserres)
To Caps: 1st (John Carlson)

To Tampa (not even 4 months later): Steve Eminger, Steve Downie, + 4th
To Flyers: Matt Carle (definite cap problem because he was fit on LTIR space), SJ's 3rd (Simon Bertilsson)

To recap, Homer traded in a period of 4 months:

1st (John Carlson), Steve Downie (now a 20 goal scorer), 4th

for

Matt Carle, Simon Bertilsson, and Jacob Deserres

A series of deals that directly led to serious cap problems and ended up costing us depth at forward and D, and Carcillo wasn't remotely close to being the player then that he's developed into this season...

This is just one example. We can get into the Lupul contract situation at another time, if you'd like.



If it's that bad, leave.



Well, disagree completely... but also appreciate it when you don't believe any critical analysis is legitimate analysis. Just crying. That's the problem with being a massive homer.
I have to say that those trades involving Eminger were tough to swallow. Im really not sure how Eminger was worth a 1st +. And Id love to have Carlson back there instead of Parent right now...

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04-24-2010, 01:39 PM
  #69
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I want Holmer out of here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, Holmgren has proven to be egregiously stupid. How about last year when he butchered our salary cap situation and gutted all of the depth on the team in the spring, so that our only deadline acquisition was to give up a 2nd and Upshall for Carcillo in a salary dump that failed to work (remember, we had an ATO defenseman on the ice for the goal that cost us home ice in the first round)?



Hey, you're a kind of professional hockey writer covering the Flyers... why don't you do that? That sounds like an article...this is a message board for discussion, not researched articles.

One I would LOVE to hear you justify is the trade for Steve Eminger and the resulting trades that followed.

To Flyers: Steve Eminger (RFA AT THE TIME!!!!) and 3rd (Jacob Deserres)
To Caps: 1st (John Carlson)

To Tampa (not even 4 months later): Steve Eminger, Steve Downie, + 4th
To Flyers: Matt Carle (definite cap problem because he was fit on LTIR space), SJ's 3rd (Simon Bertilsson)

To recap, Homer traded in a period of 4 months:

1st (John Carlson), Steve Downie (now a 20 goal scorer), 4th

for

Matt Carle, Simon Bertilsson, and Jacob Deserres

A series of deals that directly led to serious cap problems and ended up costing us depth at forward and D, and Carcillo wasn't remotely close to being the player then that he's developed into this season...

This is just one example. We can get into the Lupul contract situation at another time, if you'd like.



If it's that bad, leave.



Well, disagree completely... but also appreciate it when you don't believe any critical analysis is legitimate analysis. Just crying. That's the problem with being a massive homer.
This is tremendous

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04-24-2010, 01:45 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I will right after this post. I won't post in here anymore.
Shame, was hoping to hear your take on why Holmgren is a genius for giving up our 1st for Eminger.

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My full analysis will come in the offseason after the playoffs if you want it so bad. I'm pretty busy from now on through the draft and free agency.
Look forward to it.

Quote:
You just gave us the same two things that always get cited and skipped out on everything else. Continuously you cite the same couple bad things and miss out on every good thing he has done.
This is just (again with you) a boldfaced lie to make it out like Holmgren is some persecuted figure without any appreciation. If what you just said was true, at all, I wouldn't be a consistent defender of his abilities as a scout and eye for talent.

Where I have consistently blasted Holmgren is in his asset management (which is terrible) and imbecilic management of the salary cap.

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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
I have to say that those trades involving Eminger were tough to swallow. Im really not sure how Eminger was worth a 1st +. And Id love to have Carlson back there instead of Parent right now...
That trade was just brutal at the time...and that was before he compounded it by giving up Downie to get Carle and his cap hit.

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04-24-2010, 01:47 PM
  #71
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This is tremendous
It's a one-sided argument about one side. Of course it's tremendous.

Okay gone.

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04-24-2010, 01:51 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's a one-sided argument about one side. Of course it's tremendous.

Okay gone.
So...present the other side. If there's another side that makes that deal out to be great, then go for it.

Holmgren hasn't been a GM for that long. He had the season of suck, where he got Coburn and unloaded Forsberg (both good deals), which enabled him to take advantage of his scouting and talent analysis skills (honed over years as a scout/Asst. GM).

First full season: went to the ECF after spending lots of money the previous offseason.

Second full season: was last season...which was just a BRUTAL season as far as his GM skills.

Third full season: Randy Jones debacle at the very outset, and a goalie problem throughout.

He's had a single full season as a GM where he hasn't made any a***hole decisions when given the keys from the offseason onward.

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04-24-2010, 01:51 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
It's a one-sided argument about one side. Of course it's tremendous.

Okay gone.
Generally when people argue, they argue towards one side. Otherwise it would be an agreement.

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04-24-2010, 01:52 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Hey, you're a kind of professional hockey writer covering the Flyers... why don't you do that? That sounds like an article...this is a message board for discussion, not researched articles.

One I would LOVE to hear you justify is the trade for Steve Eminger and the resulting trades that followed.

To Flyers: Steve Eminger (RFA AT THE TIME!!!!) and 3rd (Jacob Deserres)
To Caps: 1st (John Carlson)


To Tampa (not even 4 months later): Steve Eminger, Steve Downie, + 4th
To Flyers: Matt Carle (definite cap problem because he was fit on LTIR space), SJ's 3rd (Simon Bertilsson)

To recap, Homer traded in a period of 4 months:

1st (John Carlson), Steve Downie (now a 20 goal scorer), 4th

for

Matt Carle, Simon Bertilsson, and Jacob Deserres

A series of deals that directly led to serious cap problems and ended up costing us depth at forward and D, and Carcillo wasn't remotely close to being the player then that he's developed into this season...

This is just one example. We can get into the Lupul contract situation at another time, if you'd like.
I'll lambast this trade until the day I die, and especially over the course of the next 10-15 years as Carlson develops into a top-pairing defenseman. It's made even worse by the fact that I wanted the Flyers to take him at #27 (cue FlyHigh's diatribe about not possibly being able to know that Carlson would turn out the way he is). But, no, let's trade for an underachieving BUST of a defenseman, only to realize a month into the season why Washington couldn't wait to unload his sorry ass. Acquiring Eminger in the first place ended up costing us Carlson AND Downie (yes, I know we got Matt Carle as a result, too... whoopdie freakin' doo) -- a failure of such epic proportions that I actually believe it's a fireable offense. I wonder if McPhee could stifle his laughter on the phone when consummating the deal with Homer. Seriously, I rarely get this angry over anything, but I feel I am more than justified here.

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04-24-2010, 01:56 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I'll lambast this trade until the day I die, and especially over the course of the next 10-15 years as Carlson develops into a top-pairing defenseman. It's made even worse by the fact that I wanted the Flyers to take him at #27 (cue FlyHigh's diatribe about not possibly being able to know that Carlson would turn out the way he is). But, no, let's trade for an underachieving BUST of a defenseman, only to realize a month into the season why Washington couldn't wait to unload his sorry ass. Acquiring Eminger in the first place ended up costing us Carlson AND Downie (yes, I know we got Matt Carle as a result, too... whoopdie freakin' doo) -- a failure of such epic proportions that I actually believe it's a fireable offense. I wonder if McPhee could stifle his laughter on the phone when consummating the deal with Homer. Seriously, I rarely get this angry over anything, but I feel I am more than justified here.
The fact that Eminger was a RFA makes it even more criminal. And, sure, we may not have selected Carlson with that pick and whatever else... but, seriously, WTF was he thinking?

And without even getting into what happened with the next trade, they almost immediately decided that they'd effed up. The very fact that we followed up that trade with another is evidence of how much of an abject **** up that deal was.

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