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Patrick Thoresen - back to Philadelphia?

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Old
04-24-2010, 04:59 PM
  #26
Lab Monkey
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id love to see him back, hell imagine him and Lappy blocking shots together, lol

in all seriousness though, I cant see where he would fit in unless the club drops Asham or Powe

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04-24-2010, 05:00 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Thoresen is not a bad finisher. He's not elite, but he's not bad.
Certainly made goalies chest protectors work hard, that's for sure.

In the past you've mentioned that you loved Thor, and as we've seen with you and player evaluation objectivity goes out the window when you like a player and/or he happens to play for the Flyers. In 106 NHL games as a 23 and 24 y/o, Thor managed 6 goals (paired with 18 assists). That's pretty brutal, and it isn't like he was 20 or something, he was in the beginning of his prime as far as offensive abilities go in this league.

But, sure, some of it was him being snakebit, a 5.4 shooting % is non-sustainable on the bad front (of course, that's also part of why he's been playing in the KHL as opposed to the NHL).

He put up respectable points in the AHL, Q, and in Europe...but he's really a whatever bottom 6 guy in the NHL.

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04-24-2010, 05:00 PM
  #28
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I liked what I saw from him, he's got heart. I would be thrilled if we signed him and he somehow attained ~40-50pts, but I think thats unlikely.

Also, I don't think he could be had cheaply. Relative term, but it sounds like he's a bit stubborn when it comes to negotiations, likely wants to cash in. (Don't blame him)

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04-24-2010, 05:01 PM
  #29
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meh, players like him are a dime a dozen

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04-24-2010, 05:03 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Certainly made goalies chest protectors work hard, that's for sure.

In the past you've mentioned that you loved Thor, and as we've seen with you and player evaluation objectivity goes out the window when you like a player and/or he happens to play for the Flyers. In 106 NHL games as a 23 and 24 y/o, Thor managed 6 goals (paired with 18 assists). That's pretty brutal, and it isn't like he was 20 or something, he was in the beginning of his prime as far as offensive abilities go in this league.

But, sure, some of it was him being snakebit, a 5.4 shooting % is non-sustainable on the bad front (of course, that's also part of why he's been playing in the KHL as opposed to the NHL).

He put up respectable points in the AHL, Q, and in Europe...but he's really a whatever bottom 6 guy in the NHL.
Yes, none of my points are valid because I'm a homer. Gotcha.

Never said he was going to be more than a bottom 6 guy. I never said he was going to put up more than 30 points. I never said that he has finishing issues.

"They hear what they want to hear."

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:03 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by RJ8812 View Post
meh, players like him are a dime a dozen
He's not a goalie

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:05 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Calling the Devils the Capitals when they are completely different doesn't work right?

I smell hypocrisy every time you come out of the woodwork.
Do you realize how dumb the above is when you then agree with me below?

The problem you had in comparing the Devils to the Capitals wasn't that making comparisons is bad on merit, it's that comparing the Devils and Capitals is just flat stupid. Something pretty much everyone in that thread called you out on.

So, no, there's no hypocrisy there whatsoever. Unless we need to define what hypocrisy means.

Quote:
That said, Thor and Powe are similar. They both have speed, puck-sharking, a little bit of physicality, good board-work, and are decent defensively. However, Powe would never put up Thor-esque numbers overseas. Thoresen is a bigger offensive threat. Powe is built to be a banger and crasher though. He's stronger and more bottom heavy than Thor.

Also note: I've wanted Powe to play in Asham's spot all season.
Powe may not put up the numbers Thor does overseas...but we're not talking about them playing overseas, we're talking about 'em playing in the NHL. So what Powe might theoretically due overseas on big rinks, in less physical leagues is completely irrelevant.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:07 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yes, none of my points are valid because I'm a homer. Gotcha.

Never said he was going to be more than a bottom 6 guy. I never said he was going to put up more than 30 points. I never said that he has finishing issues.

"They hear what they want to hear."
No, you've just said he was some improvement over guys that are producing at the same exact rate. That he's a better option than someone like Powe.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:08 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Powe may not put up the numbers Thor does overseas...but we're not talking about them playing overseas, we're talking about 'em playing in the NHL. So what Powe might theoretically due overseas on big rinks, in less physical leagues is completely irrelevant.
We're having a "discussion" on Thoresen's offensive capabilities.

I think Thoresen being a more skilled offensive weapon may be relevant to the conversation.

Excuse me for thinking that offensive capabilities came into play at all during a conversation about offensive capabilities.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:15 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
We're having a "discussion" on Thoresen's offensive capabilities.

I think Thoresen being a more skilled offensive weapon may be relevant to the conversation.

Excuse me for thinking that offensive capabilities came into play at all during a conversation about offensive capabilities.
Offensive capabilities in the KHL... are not the same thing as offensive capabilities in the NHL. So making flat comparisons Powe's offense in the KHL to Thor's offense in the KHL...waste of time.

What's Thor's offensive capability in the NHL? In his previous stint with the Oilers and us, it didn't look too good. He struggled with the goaltending at this level, and didn't have the best shot in the world.

Case in point, Morozov is a decent, but not spectacular offensive player in the NHL... goes to the KHL and he's absolutely lighting it up.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:21 PM
  #36
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I cant believe people on here already want to ditch Asham.

He is one of the few guys on this team I really like along with Lappy, Betts, Carcillo, Giroux, JVR, Briere.

He is a great physical player, can check well, plays solid defense, fights, and is very underrated when it comes to his offensive abilities.

I like Thoresen, but only if we give up Cote.

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04-24-2010, 05:26 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Offensive capabilities in the KHL... are not the same thing as offensive capabilities in the NHL. So making flat comparisons Powe's offense in the KHL to Thor's offense in the KHL...waste of time.

What's Thor's offensive capability in the NHL? In his previous stint with the Oilers and us, it didn't look too good. He struggled with the goaltending at this level, and didn't have the best shot in the world.

Case in point, Morozov is a decent, but not spectacular offensive player in the NHL... goes to the KHL and he's absolutely lighting it up.
Better skating, better shooting, better puck-handling, better vision, better passing, better deking, better puck pursuit...

None of that is relevant in any way towards Thoresen's offensive capabilities?

I don't care how many points he had as a 22-year-old on the third line of a struggling Edmonton Oilers offense that finished DEAD LAST in scoring that season with 2.34 GF/G.

The question is will Thoresen be a more dynamic offensive weapon than Asham or Powe in our top 9?

He will. There is no question in my mind.

Will Thoresen be a more dynamic all-around weapon than Asham or Powe?

That's debatable due to Asham's important physicality. I think he will.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:27 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PycckuuRocket10 View Post
I cant believe people on here already want to ditch Asham.

He is one of the few guys on this team I really like along with Lappy, Betts, Carcillo, Giroux, JVR, Briere.

He is a great physical player, can check well, plays solid defense, fights, and is very underrated when it comes to his offensive abilities.

I like Thoresen, but only if we give up Cote.
I don't know that anyone other than Shafer wants Thoreson over Asham. Most people just say they wouldn't mind him if we lose Asham...there's a difference between wanting him as a replacement if Asham leaves, and wanting him to replace Asham altogether.

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04-24-2010, 05:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm assuming you missed his 1st stint here?

I really like Thor, wouldn't mind him coming back as a 4th liner, but the guy has rock hands.

EDIT: For the record, Marcel Hossa and Pavel Brendl were the top 2 goalscorers in the KHL this past year, so please don't use his KHL stats as the basis for him becoming a good offensive player.

Actually. Thor is pretty decent. But, he didn't have any offensive confidence when he played here the last time. First playing on crappy Edmonton who lost like 22 of 23 games. Then he played a mainly 4th line, some third line ? Here.

That doesn't give a lot of goals. But I think he has gotten better and got confidence.

If you look at his totals after leaving NHL:

Lugano 48GP - 22+41 for 63 points + 8GP : 7+1 in the playoffs
Salavat Yulaev 56GP - 24+33 for 57 points + 10GP : 5+5 in the playoffs
Olympics: 4GP : 0+5 for 5 points.

I think he can be a solid 2nd/3rd liner for you. He and MZA+Vikingstad just ripped apart Switzerland and Slovakia in the Olympics. Streit and Chara. To bad we didn't have the D or goaltending to get through. Even though Grotnes actually did good over several games for a change.

He battles hard, and I remember he had a beast penalty kill vs. Canada in the Olympics.

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04-24-2010, 05:29 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Actually. Thor is pretty decent. But, he didn't have any offensive confidence when he played here the last time. First playing on crappy Edmonton who lost like 22 of 23 games. Then he played a mainly 4th line, some third line ? Here.

That doesn't give a lot of goals. But I think he has gotten better and got confidence.

If you look at his totals after leaving NHL:

Lugano 48GP - 22+41 for 63 points + 8GP : 7+1 in the playoffs
Salavat Yulaev 56GP - 24+33 for 57 points + 10GP : 5+5 in the playoffs
Olympics: 4GP : 0+5 for 5 points.

I think he can be a solid 2nd/3rd liner for you. He and MZA+Vikingstad just ripped apart Switzerland and Slovakia in the Olympics. Streit and Chara. To bad we didn't have the D or goaltending to get through. Even though Grotnes actually did good over several games for a change.
Don't worry about arguing in Thor's defense. They all know it's true, but they won't admit it because they want to prove me wrong. It's like a game to them so I humor them.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:30 PM
  #41
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Thor is a mystery in the offensive end. Ill take Asham who will contribute, for sure, 20+ points.

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04-24-2010, 05:31 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Actually. Thor is pretty decent. But, he didn't have any offensive confidence when he played here the last time. First playing on crappy Edmonton who lost like 22 of 23 games. Then he played a mainly 4th line, some third line ? Here.

That doesn't give a lot of goals. But I think he has gotten better and got confidence.

If you look at his totals after leaving NHL:

Lugano 48GP - 22+41 for 63 points + 8GP : 7+1 in the playoffs
Salavat Yulaev 56GP - 24+33 for 57 points + 10GP : 5+5 in the playoffs
Olympics: 4GP : 0+5 for 5 points.

I think he can be a solid 2nd/3rd liner for you. He and MZA+Vikingstad just ripped apart Switzerland and Slovakia in the Olympics. Streit and Chara. To bad we didn't have the D or goaltending to get through. Even though Grotnes actually did good over several games for a change.

He battles hard, and I remember he had a beast penalty kill vs. Canada in the Olympics.
He actually played on a line with Richards.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:31 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Better skating, better shooting, better puck-handling, better vision, better passing, better deking, better puck pursuit...

None of that is relevant in any way towards Thoresen's offensive capabilities?

I don't care how many points he had as a 22-year-old on the third line of a struggling Edmonton Oilers offense that finished DEAD LAST in scoring that season with 2.34 GF/G.

The question is will Thoresen be a more dynamic offensive weapon than Asham or Powe in our top 9?

He will. There is no question in my mind.

Will Thoresen be a more dynamic all-around weapon than Asham or Powe?

That's debatable due to Asham's important physicality. I think he will.
He didn't exactly light it up on our bottom 6, either...and guess where he's gonna be?

This hypothetical argument is just stupid...also, I'm not entirely sure I buy that Thor is a better skater than Powe. Powe is fast as hell, he just has brick hands. Thor has some dangles that he can use to beat second-rate KHL goalies, sure, but we didn't see any of that here in the NHL before. He's going to have a lot less time and space to try to make the types of plays he's been making overseas, and the goalies here are a lot better, too.

Your man-love for Thoreson is appreciable, but I think you're really overestimating his talent with your projections. In terms of offensive output, I think he'll be more or less equal (maybe barely better) to Asham or Powe, and will contribute less in terms of physicality and wearing down the defense on the forecheck.

Given the way our forecheck works, I'd want someone who can hit hard on our bottom 6 over some Euro who might be able to dangle once every 10 games that he actually gets the time and space to do it.

That said, yes, I'd love to have him back, but not at the expense of an Asham or Powe on the roster. We already have Leino.

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04-24-2010, 05:34 PM
  #44
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Thor!

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04-24-2010, 05:34 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Don't worry about arguing in Thor's defense. They all know it's true, but they won't admit it because they want to prove me wrong. It's like a game to them so I humor them.
No self-flattery here.

I mean, no offense at all, but do you realize how much of a joke you are to every objective poster on this board?

I'm not trying to insult you personally, but seriously, get some perspective.

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04-24-2010, 05:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
No self-flattery here.

I mean, no offense at all, but do you realize how much of a joke you are to every objective poster on this board?

I'm not trying to insult you personally, but seriously, get some perspective.
You guys are not objective. You like to act like you are, but really you just like arguing with other posters.

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04-24-2010, 05:37 PM
  #47
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I like Thor. Having said that, I would be surprised if he could match Asham's 10 goals. If Thor comes back, expecting anything more than he was is a stretch.

I live outside Lugano and Randy Robitaille had similar numbers this year as Thor had last and sure do not think Randy has had a late career offensive awakening.

Maybe, Thor has offensive upside just as Kaspar might have had, Eric Chouinard etc., but I would not bet the bank on it.

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04-24-2010, 05:37 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You guys are not objective. You like to act like you are, but really you just like arguing with other posters.
Not really, I mean, I disagree with somebody like Jester on guys like Hartnell and we fight about it, but I bet I agree with most people on here about 85% of the time.

You, I agree with about 10% of the time, if that much.

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Old
04-24-2010, 05:38 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Better skating, better shooting, better puck-handling, better vision, better passing, better deking, better puck pursuit...

None of that is relevant in any way towards Thoresen's offensive capabilities?
Sure it is...how does that translate to less ice, better goalies, better defenders, and a significantly more physical game?

Powe succeeds in the NHL because he's a smart player and keeps his game extremely simple. The thing I like the most about him is that he's one of the few bottom 6 guys with a little bit of skill that never seems to try to do too much and get himself into trouble...just does his job. It works in the NHL. When Thor was in the NHL he was an offensive void, and didn't bring anything remotely close to the physical game we see from guys like those. Asham and Powe are great in Lavy's system because they are the guys that get in on that aggressive forecheck you love and hit guys.

Quote:
I don't care how many points he had as a 22-year-old on the third line of a struggling Edmonton Oilers offense that finished DEAD LAST in scoring that season with 2.34 GF/G.
Well, he was 23 when he was over there...but that's moot. I'm not sure why you wouldn't care about how he fared while in the NHL though...you know, evidence of his play in this league. Throwing that out there is like throwing out the murder weapon in a murder case.

Quote:
The question is will Thoresen be a more dynamic offensive weapon than Asham or Powe in our top 9?

He will. There is no question in my mind.
Interesting theory.

In 106 games, Thor has 0.06 goals per game.

Powe: 0.12 through 123 games.
Asham: 0.13 through 648 games.

Asham has been a consistent 20-30 point guy throughout his career, which is probably what you may expect from Thor. I would suspect he could outscore Powe in point totals just because Powe isn't big on the assist thing, more of a put it on net and see what happens type (though, he has put up a few more points when above the 4th line).

Quote:
Will Thoresen be a more dynamic all-around weapon than Asham or Powe?

That's debatable due to Asham's important physicality. I think he will.
Or he's just a tweener offensively that can get it done below the NHL, but struggles offensively at the faster speed and shorter windows of the NHL...which is kind of what he looked like when he was here.

Look, I wouldn't be against bringing him back if we're going to move on from Asham. Though, Asham's cheap and dependable...which I like. However, I'm pretty skeptical of any claims of real improvement based on what we saw of him previously.

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04-24-2010, 05:43 PM
  #50
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Thoresen - 106 games, 6 goals, 24 points + 2 playoff points. 1223 minutes on ice + 131 in playoffs, 120 games played in two season. 94 minutes of SH time.

Powe - 123 games, 15 goals, 11 assists, 26 points + 3 playoff points. 1394 minutes on ice + 141 in playoffs, 134 games played in two seasons. 150 minutes of SH time.

Thoresen: 26 points/120 games = .2166 ppg. Avg TOI:1354 minutes/120 games = 11.283 minutes/game.

Powe: 29 points/134 games = . 2164 ppg. Avg TOI: 1535 minutes/134 games= 11.455 minutes/game.

Powe plays more shorthanded time (by a wide margin, though this may be a function of the rosters Thoresen played on in both Edm and Phi). They both avergae nearly the same amount of points per game.

Does it come down to a question of who would fair better in Lavi's system? I'm readily acknowledging a clearl bias in favor of Powe. Does it come down to who would fill a need not currently filled on the Flyers? It would be open to debate.

Hooray for CBS sports.

Regards,
Rick

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