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WCQF | Game 5 | Detroit Red Wings @ Phoenix Coyotes | 10:00 PM EDT | VERSUS - FS-D |

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04-25-2010, 11:49 AM
  #401
Roy S
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Edit: On a serious note, why does Lebda get so little appreciation? His regular season stats were in the middle for D. Lilja was a -2 after playing 20G. Lebda was a -2 after 63 GP. Ericsson was a team worst -15 after 62 GP; and Stu finished at -12 after 82 GP and the second higher Total IT on the season (2380 min vs Lids 2400). I pulled up all sorts of stats-- giveaways, takeaways, blocked shots, hits.... Stu leads in the Hits, Blocked Shots..... E is ahead of Lebda in hits (which should be expected, but Lebda is avg on the team); Lebda has fewer giveaways, but in the other categories they're pretty even. So E is on the ice for a hell of a lot more goals, and had 2x the hits that Lebda did, but otherwise did nothing to separate himself and gave the puck away a lot more. (He is in good company in that last category, with the likes of Lids, Dats, Z, etc., but those guys play a lot more and should have the puck a lot more all over the ice. E's giveaways are probably in the defensive zone, but I can't tease that apart further.)
Lebda is fine as a back end guy. But, (and you should like this) from observation, one can see that Big E has a higher upside and more natural talent to work with than Lebda. He has a higher ceiling and could fill in on the PP and PK as needed and I don't think he's been as bad in this series as some are making him out to be.

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Old
04-25-2010, 11:49 AM
  #402
Ricelund
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Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post


Wahh wahh. I'm so sick of the Coyotes whining -- "We're underdogs, no one cares about us, everyone thought we'd suck, no one gives us a chance against the Wings."

Grow up.

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04-25-2010, 12:33 PM
  #403
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Lebda is fine as a back end guy. But, (and you should like this) from observation, one can see that Big E has a higher upside and more natural talent to work with than Lebda. He has a higher ceiling and could fill in on the PP and PK as needed and I don't think he's been as bad in this series as some are making him out to be.
I'm a huge fan of Lidstrom. I think that hockey brains are more important than hockey brawn. He's just so damned smart that he's always a step or two ahead of the play, always in position. He's not big and he's not physical but his smarts are what makes him dominant.

I'm not a huge Kronwall fan. He's fast, he hits, and he's mobile. But he's a dumbass. He's out of position, he takes risks, and has too many brainfarts.

I see the Lebda/Ericsson debate in a similar light, just a few steps behind in terms of skill. Ericsson is big and mobile but a dumbass. Lebda is mobile but not big and doesn't hit as much but has better instincts and hockey sense - always makes safe plays, does a good job of staying in position, etc.

So if Ericsson can pull his head out of his ass, yes, he will be much better than Lebda. But his size alone doesn't make him better.

Give me smarts over muscle... but ideally, give me both.

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04-25-2010, 12:49 PM
  #404
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imo it would be stupid to give up on Ericsson already. Yes, compared to his 2009 playoff performance he has performed very poorly to what we were expecting, but at the same time, most of us put huge expectations on him as a rookie dman thinking he could already serve as a 3-4 dman if we needed him to be.

Unfortunately this year he showed that he is not close to being a 3-4 dman on our team, but as a 5-6 dman who has had his ups and downs as a rookie, which almost every rookie 5-6 dman has, it would be dumb to think that he can't get a little better and more consistent.

People will rip me for this, but when I look at him in comparison to our other dmen currently on the team not named Lidstrom, Ericsson is the only one who looks like he has a max ceiling of actually being a number 1 dman. Of course the chances of him hitting that ceiling are extremely slim, but in terms of maximum potential I believe he has it. He has the size you want in a number 1 dman, he is not slow (the reason he appears slow at times and gets beat is because he needs to learn to not get flat footed and keep his feet consistently moving because his acceleration is not the greatest). He has a good outlet pass but he often hesitates to make the quick pass to buy more time for himself and then he loses the puck. He also can chase the forward a bit too much and get caught out of position.

After 1 full season in the NHL it would be stupid to think that he can't work on improving these aspects of his game and that the wings coaching staff and management won't also help him to improve on these limitations of his. Like I said he is very unlikely to ever hit his maximum potential, but as the last player taken in the draft if he can just improve a little bit he should be able to become a solid 5-6 dman for our team, which is nothing to moan about. It will be key for him to work hard this offseason on his inconsistencies and show that he has it in him to be a solid contributor to our team. If he shows next season that he can't improve on those inconsistencies in his game, then maybe we start worrying about it.

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04-25-2010, 01:07 PM
  #405
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Lebda is fine as a back end guy. But, (and you should like this) from observation, one can see that Big E has a higher upside and more natural talent to work with than Lebda. He has a higher ceiling and could fill in on the PP and PK as needed and I don't think he's been as bad in this series as some are making him out to be.
Ericsson had the higher upside going into this season. He then had one of the worst seasons from a Wings D in a long time.

I personally think, also from observation, that the team has battened the hatches down a bit knowing the forwards MUST help the goalie when E and Lilja are on the ice. It also helps that Howard is having a pretty good year (as compared to last year's reg season stats for goaltending).

I am not giving up on E yet. What I see developing however is a player who has some skating issues as far as what it takes to be a defender (speed behind the net, turning, backward skating; positioning (he plays like a forward-- going out too far to playing the man, not playing positionally); and decision making. He gets flustered and/or makes poor decisions in what to do with the puck. I think the last thing may be the easiest to work on... Is he kinda dumb or just very inexperienced, especially with the NHL being that much faster? He also isn't very physical, which is supposed to be one of the assets of having guy that is that big. He's physical in the sense that he will get into the wrestling for the puck on the boards issues, but he's not a guy who has learned that his size can really help him loosen up pucks more quickly or to intimidate players if he learns to check them. Thus, he is working far more than is required by battling on the boards like smaller guys have to, not realizing he has a natural advantage.

He seems like a real sweetheart though, and I'd love to see him do well. I'm just calling it as I see it, that at this point he's been a pretty big liability, which has put undue pressure on the players around him. What I do think is unfair is that Lebda has actually been a fairly good defenseman for his price and position, but seems to be unduly reviled and punished when in fact he's been very consistent. I'll be sad to see him leave the DRW.

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04-25-2010, 01:12 PM
  #406
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imo it would be stupid to give up on Ericsson already. Yes, compared to his 2009 playoff performance he has performed very poorly to what we were expecting, but at the same time, most of us put huge expectations on him as a rookie dman thinking he could already serve as a 3-4 dman if we needed him to be.

Unfortunately this year he showed that he is not close to being a 3-4 dman on our team, but as a 5-6 dman who has had his ups and downs as a rookie, which almost every rookie 5-6 dman has, it would be dumb to think that he can't get a little better and more consistent.

People will rip me for this, but when I look at him in comparison to our other dmen currently on the team not named Lidstrom, Ericsson is the only one who looks like he has a max ceiling of actually being a number 1 dman. Of course the chances of him hitting that ceiling are extremely slim, but in terms of maximum potential I believe he has it. He has the size you want in a number 1 dman, he is not slow (the reason he appears slow at times and gets beat is because he needs to learn to not get flat footed and keep his feet consistently moving because his acceleration is not the greatest). He has a good outlet pass but he often hesitates to make the quick pass to buy more time for himself and then he loses the puck. He also can chase the forward a bit too much and get caught out of position.

After 1 full season in the NHL it would be stupid to think that he can't work on improving these aspects of his game and that the wings coaching staff and management won't also help him to improve on these limitations of his. Like I said he is very unlikely to ever hit his maximum potential, but as the last player taken in the draft if he can just improve a little bit he should be able to become a solid 5-6 dman for our team, which is nothing to moan about. It will be key for him to work hard this offseason on his inconsistencies and show that he has it in him to be a solid contributor to our team. If he shows next season that he can't improve on those inconsistencies in his game, then maybe we start worrying about it.

There's just no way his ceiling is anywhere close to a #1D, imo. I say this due to his draft position too. It may be possible that with all the scouts in the world, that guys who can be NHL players are missed. I have a very hard time seeing how a heavily scouted region like Sweden would have a potential future NHL #1 D go unnoticed. Those players have the fundamentals you mention down by the time they come to the NHL. What remains is to see if they can adjust to the speed-- mentally and physically. They already know what they should be doing, but have to work out the kinks. Per my post above, I listed where I think he's weak, which are difficult things to overcome, let alone to project to a #1 D.

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04-25-2010, 01:25 PM
  #407
Jussha
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There's just no way his ceiling is anywhere close to a #1D, imo. I say this due to his draft position too. It may be possible that with all the scouts in the world, that guys who can be NHL players are missed. I have a very hard time seeing how a heavily scouted region like Sweden would have a potential future NHL #1 D go unnoticed. Those players have the fundamentals you mention down by the time they come to the NHL. What remains is to see if they can adjust to the speed-- mentally and physically. They already know what they should be doing, but have to work out the kinks. Per my post above, I listed where I think he's weak, which are difficult things to overcome, let alone to project to a #1 D.
Like I said I don't think he will ever be that nor am I expecting him too, but when I look at the components individually, I think he is superior to our other dmen not named Lidstrom.

His shot is better and harder
His outlet pass is just as good as Kronwall's or Stuarts
His size is better and he can play like a man at times
His top speed is good but his acceleration is ******

For me what limits him from being good is he seems kind of dumb. I'm not sure if its lack of confidence, lack of natural instinct, or if he is actually just dumb lol, but I'm happy to wait til next season to make more of a decision on him.

When I say a number 1 dman I don't mean a number 1 dman on all 30 teams in this NHL. What I meant is that when Lidstrom and Rafalski retire or are gone, versus who we have on our team right now, barring a sign or a trade, I think his ceiling is higher than everyother dman on our team that he would be the number 1 dman if he reached his ceiling.

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