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Question regarding Graf Skates

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Old
04-28-2010, 10:15 AM
  #26
Jarick
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Exactly...fit is absolutely the number one most important aspect of a skate. That's why Graf fans are so dedicated to that skate.

Someday I'd like to try putting LS2's on my G35's...to neutralize the pitch a bit and to get a bit of that springy feel back. But I actually don't mind the Graf holders or steel, they aren't too bad.

The difference between the 7-series and G-series are basically:

- different boot material on the sides to make it a bit stiffer and lighter
- different holders (NT5000 versus NT3000) which are supposed to be better quality
- includes SIDAS heat moldable footbeds ($90 separately)

They also seemed to have a more comfortable liner when I tried them on. Plus the 7-series were all collapsed and deformed out of the box compared to the G's...maybe because of the more flexible boot?

Anyways, the skates don't have the modern technology (super lightweight boot, flexible tendon guard, completely heat moldable), but they do have some really great features (variety of foot fits, stiff forward pitch tendon guard, lower cut boot, traditional eyelets). My old Vapors were casts on my upper ankle and I had to skip the top two eyelets to be able to get any forward flex and roll my ankles. The Grafs got me bending my knees more.

I do wish they were lighter...sometimes they are pretty heavy feeling. And I'd like them to be a bit more neutral pitched as I play defense. But I'll address that later down the road and am happy to have a really nice skate that fits so well.

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04-28-2010, 12:17 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canesrun View Post
Joni Pitkanen also uses Grafs wih Cobra holder.
yea thats right, i remember seeing them and seidenberg uses the tblades but i know he doesnt play on the canes anymore though

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04-28-2010, 01:08 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
Most shops aren't very big, if you're in a large city and have a shop bigger than a two car garage you are considered lucky. Typically, that means if they carry Graf, they have to drop Easton and/or CCM/Reebok. Anyone that is smart doesn't drop the industry leader in skate innovation, Bauer.
If you're in Canada or certain parts of the US you have a better likelihood of having a larger shop with a large selection. We aren't talking about stores like Peranis, HM, HG, Great Skate, etc... Most shops are tiny in comparison and they certainly have to drop brands to bring in other brands.
Well obviously, the retailer will stock whatever they think they can sell. I still dont understand why you raised this as a rebuff to someone saying that some stores in California apparently stock a lot of Graf. Presumably they do it because they like the product/company and believe they can sell it. Same as stores that stock any other brand.

A friend of mine took over a smallish LHS here last year and has added Graf to the lineup as none of the local big box sports stores carry them. He hasn't had any issues with them as far as I am aware and plans to add to the line for next season. He still carries the Bauers, RBK, CCM and Easton's also.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
[Also, saying that Graf is in a niche for a player that is looking for performance is just BS. Graf has done nothing but put a composite outsole on their skates that are based on a 20 year old design. Bauer and Easton have been doing tons of work in composite skates that are lightweight and are meant to perform(By creating stiffer skates meant to flex and improve power transfer). CCM finally stepped into the game with the U+.
OK look you are clearly a rabid Bauer fan so I doubt I'll get anything but hostility from you. I stated that Graf are "a niche player that targets the mid to high end player for whom fit, performance and quality are key". That is not "BS" that is a fact. I can't speak about Florida or anywhere else but here in Ontario (origin of more elite hockey players than anywhere else on the planet) there are hundreds of elite level players who swear by Grafs and for good reason.

I would estimate that of all the many AAA and AA kids I see playing and practising every week, Bauer are probably the most popular closely followed by Graf and then RBK/CCM. Considering Graf is a relatively small company employing little marketing budget and no paid player endorsements that speaks volumes. Shaving a couple of grams off a skate won't help much if it doesn't fit perfectly.

Of course with Pro players the game changes, since most are offered significant financial incentives for gear selection and the skates are all custom made for the player anyway.

If you dont like them, that's fine, but slamming the product/company is not required. Bauer makes some awesome skates, but they follow a very different business model than Graf. Both can be great options IMO.

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04-28-2010, 01:47 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Heat McManus View Post
Most of the pros will have Tuuks put on their Grafs. The steel is better and it helps neutralize the pitch.
Actually, there are quite a few guys still using the Cobra holders. It seems lately, I see more with the Cobras on them than I do without.

In addition to those already mentioned, Pavelski still uses Cobras, Dan Hamhuis of the Preds is still in Cobras, as is Darcy Tucker.

I know Ryan Clowe and Kyle Cominsky and Paul Stastny have switched to TUUKs.

I'm sure there are more in both groups I'm not aware of too. But it seems that its pretty even at this point.

I had no issues with the Cobras and I kinda liked the forward lean. I'm now trying to get my new TOs to feel more Graf like as they really helped me to bend my knees, get my weight over the balls of my feet and actually helped my skating I think.

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04-28-2010, 02:36 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by The ORB View Post
OK look you are clearly a rabid Bauer fan so I doubt I'll get anything but hostility from you. I stated that Graf are "a niche player that targets the mid to high end player for whom fit, performance and quality are key". That is not "BS" that is a fact. I can't speak about Florida or anywhere else but here in Ontario (origin of more elite hockey players than anywhere else on the planet) there are hundreds of elite level players who swear by Grafs and for good reason.

I would estimate that of all the many AAA and AA kids I see playing and practising every week, Bauer are probably the most popular closely followed by Graf and then RBK/CCM. Considering Graf is a relatively small company employing little marketing budget and no paid player endorsements that speaks volumes. Shaving a couple of grams off a skate won't help much if it doesn't fit perfectly.

Of course with Pro players the game changes, since most are offered significant financial incentives for gear selection and the skates are all custom made for the player anyway.

If you dont like them, that's fine, but slamming the product/company is not required. Bauer makes some awesome skates, but they follow a very different business model than Graf. Both can be great options IMO.
I'm "clearly" a rabid Bauer fan why? Because I said they were the industry leader in skate innovation? They are! Easton was the first mainstream with a composite boot but Bauer took it to a different level with the one90. The one90 was a fully heat moldable skate meant to eliminate negative space to give the best fit possible. The skates were lower cut and had a flexible tendon guard to help with the toe "flick" something no one else was doing. Then they stepped it up with the one95, making it fit more people and improving the materials and changing the holders(from a bust of a holder). All the while Easton is trying to fix durability issues and going no where. CCM is working on bringing out the U+ which was a disaster. Reebok did nothing. Graf effectively put a carbon fibre hood on a a 1990 Mazda Miata and is charging comparative high-end prices. Then the totalOne comes out, reflex inserts in the tongue, lower cut boot, rearranged eyelets, fusion steel(to reduce weight), different liner and improved internal materials. All improvements that no other skate company have been able to keep up with. Right now everyone is stuck at the one90 level, at best, the only company that was ahead of Bauer was Kor. Kor is no longer around... So that leaves one leader, Bauer.

BUT, that's not the point. I never knocked on Graf about technology until you made the comment about performance. The main issue with Graf isn't the lack of technology, it's the customer service and horrible quality control. I've already had one dealer already send me a message thanking me for saying what he couldn't publically say.

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04-28-2010, 02:46 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
I'm "clearly" a rabid Bauer fan why? Because I said they were the industry leader in skate innovation? They are! Easton was the first mainstream with a composite boot but Bauer took it to a different level with the one90. The one90 was a fully heat moldable skate meant to eliminate negative space to give the best fit possible. The skates were lower cut and had a flexible tendon guard to help with the toe "flick" something no one else was doing. Then they stepped it up with the one95, making it fit more people and improving the materials and changing the holders(from a bust of a holder). All the while Easton is trying to fix durability issues and going no where. CCM is working on bringing out the U+ which was a disaster. Reebok did nothing. Graf effectively put a carbon fibre hood on a a 1990 Mazda Miata and is charging comparative high-end prices. Then the totalOne comes out, reflex inserts in the tongue, lower cut boot, rearranged eyelets, fusion steel(to reduce weight), different liner and improved internal materials. All improvements that no other skate company have been able to keep up with. Right now everyone is stuck at the one90 level, at best, the only company that was ahead of Bauer was Kor. Kor is no longer around... So that leaves one leader, Bauer.

BUT, that's not the point. I never knocked on Graf about technology until you made the comment about performance. The main issue with Graf isn't the lack of technology, it's the customer service and horrible quality control. I've already had one dealer already send me a message thanking me for saying what he couldn't publically say.
yea grafs customer service is awful. my brother had a pair of graf 7 series like 8 years ago and something broke on them right away, i think the holder or something, so the place where we bought them (the hockey shop in binghamton ny) had a huge problem trying to get graf to replace them and it took a long time, all the while my brother stuck with his old skates after spending 700 on their skates all because they wouldnt replace them without a fight

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04-28-2010, 03:32 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
I'm "clearly" a rabid Bauer fan why? Because I said they were the industry leader in skate innovation? They are! Easton was the first mainstream with a composite boot but Bauer took it to a different level with the one90. The one90 was a fully heat moldable skate meant to eliminate negative space to give the best fit possible. The skates were lower cut and had a flexible tendon guard to help with the toe "flick" something no one else was doing. Then they stepped it up with the one95, making it fit more people and improving the materials and changing the holders(from a bust of a holder). All the while Easton is trying to fix durability issues and going no where. CCM is working on bringing out the U+ which was a disaster. Reebok did nothing. Graf effectively put a carbon fibre hood on a a 1990 Mazda Miata and is charging comparative high-end prices. Then the totalOne comes out, reflex inserts in the tongue, lower cut boot, rearranged eyelets, fusion steel(to reduce weight), different liner and improved internal materials. All improvements that no other skate company have been able to keep up with. Right now everyone is stuck at the one90 level, at best, the only company that was ahead of Bauer was Kor. Kor is no longer around... So that leaves one leader, Bauer.

BUT, that's not the point. I never knocked on Graf about technology until you made the comment about performance. The main issue with Graf isn't the lack of technology, it's the customer service and horrible quality control. I've already had one dealer already send me a message thanking me for saying what he couldn't publically say.

Thanks for the Bauer infomercial again. This one was even better. Reflex inserts and fusion steel you say....awesome...just awesome. I am sure they will transform anyone's game, whether the skate fits perfectly or not. As for the Lower cut boot, looks like they are taking some notes from Graf?!

For what its worth I have had quality issues with Bauer products but never had a problem with Graf. Doesn't mean I start slamming Bauer on public forums. I think a lot of their products are great, but like any manufacturing company they have their fair share of quality problems. I have bought lots of Bauer equipment for myself and moreso my kids over the last few years. Most of it has been great, but there have been some duds along the way also.
In fairness I do know of one guy whose Grafs broke at the base, although he had the skates for over two years and skates pretty hard on them every week. I have heard of Graf quality problems indirectly, but from any of the people that I know who use them, apart from that one guy.

Don't worry though, I'll be sure to point out to all the AAA and Junior players, coaches, skating instructors and pros around here that use Grafs that they are using an out dated skate from a "bottom feeding joke" of a supplier.

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04-28-2010, 04:04 PM
  #33
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Always love the "I'm from Canada, I know more about hockey then you" bit.

Defend Graf all you want, but please don't insult our intelligence and compare them to Bauer. When 70% of professional hockey players are wearing Bauer, it's obvious who the leader is.

You'd think when the only thing you make is skates you'd do it better than anyone else, too bad they don't.

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04-28-2010, 04:09 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by stick9 View Post
Always love the "I'm from Canada, I know more about hockey then you" bit.

Defend Graf all you want, but please don't insult our intelligence and compare them to Bauer. When 70% of professional hockey players are wearing Bauer, it's obvious who the leader is.

You'd think when the only thing you make is skates you'd do it better than anyone else, too bad they don't.
Erm you are aware that Bauer are a Canadian company and that Graf (a Swiss company) also make gloves, pants, sticks etc? Other than those minor details though you made an excellent post.

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04-28-2010, 04:23 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by The ORB View Post
A friend of mine took over a smallish LHS here last year and has added Graf to the lineup as none of the local big box sports stores carry them. He hasn't had any issues with them as far as I am aware and plans to add to the line for next season. He still carries the Bauers, RBK, CCM and Easton's also.
I'm assuming your friends' store is in Canada? This means their shipping is far more streamlined. Graf shipping to the US is much trickier.

And you've quoted "bottom feeding joke" yet you're the only one that's used that term. The bottom line is you can't sell the greatest skate in the world at the greatest price if the company has problems delivering it to you.

As for the advances in Bauer's technology, they're making them for pros. If wearing a skate with a 27% lighter blade means you get to the puck 0.23 seconds faster than your opponent then it is making a difference in the game.

Graf still makes a good product, but they've done nothing to push the envelope like other companies have. Which I would say they're perfectly fine with except that they came out with the G series.

And claiming that Bauer has the largest share of the market doesn't mean somebody is a "rabid Bauer fan" or that they're bashing Graf it means they know the market.

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04-28-2010, 04:40 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Heat McManus View Post
I'm assuming your friends' store is in Canada? This means their shipping is far more streamlined. Graf shipping to the US is much trickier.

And you've quoted "bottom feeding joke" yet you're the only one that's used that term. The bottom line is you can't sell the greatest skate in the world at the greatest price if the company has problems delivering it to you.

As for the advances in Bauer's technology, they're making them for pros. If wearing a skate with a 27% lighter blade means you get to the puck 0.23 seconds faster than your opponent then it is making a difference in the game.

Graf still makes a good product, but they've done nothing to push the envelope like other companies have. Which I would say they're perfectly fine with except that they came out with the G series.

And claiming that Bauer has the largest share of the market doesn't mean somebody is a "rabid Bauer fan" or that they're bashing Graf it means they know the market.
On your first point yes his store is here in the GTA and you may be correct. Maybe they do have issue with US distribution, I can only comment on what I know first hand.

As for your second point. TBLfan called Graf a bottomfeeder and then stated that Graf Canada is a joke. His words not mine! He took the opportunity to turn a Graf thread into a Bauer infomercial with a healthy slice of Graf bashing.

I think a lot of the advances Bauer are making are great and doubtless filter through the industry, but some of it is a little overblown with marketing hype and still doesn't address the issues that Bauers don't fit everyone very well.

It's certainly not Bauer bashing, its not Canada chest thumping (dont know how our buddy stick9 conjured that one up) its just an appreciation of Graf making a great product. Nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
graf is a bottomfeeder and Bauer absolutely dominates.

Look online for horror stories on Graf customer service, mismounted holders, missing insoles, different sized skates, wrong toe caps, etc... Graf Canada is a joke.

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04-28-2010, 05:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by The ORB View Post
As for your second point. TBLfan called Graf a bottomfeeder and then stated that Graf Canada is a joke. His words not mine! He took the opportunity to turn a Graf thread into a Bauer infomercial with a healthy slice of Graf bashing.

I think a lot of the advances Bauer are making are great and doubtless filter through the industry, but some of it is a little overblown with marketing hype and still doesn't address the issues that Bauers don't fit everyone very well.

It's certainly not Bauer bashing, its not Canada chest thumping (dont know how our buddy stick9 conjured that one up) its just an appreciation of Graf making a great product. Nothing more.
My bad, I ran a search using a space between "bottom" and "feeder". While not the nicest term, it's still accurate. Their numbers are on the bottom at both the retail and pro level. However, this doesn't necessarily mean they're not comfortable where they are. They don't spend nearly as much on r&d and marketing therefore they're not going to need to make up as much at the retail level.

All-in-all I thin both companies are meeting their expectations. Bauer wants to be #1 in the market while being the catalyst in innovation catering to the vast majority of players and Graf looks like it wants to offer a wide range of fitting available in both traditional and somewhat modern constructions. Yes, they make other products, but they're not their main focus.

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04-28-2010, 05:22 PM
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Erm you are aware that Bauer are a Canadian company and that Graf (a Swiss company) also make gloves, pants, sticks etc? Other than those minor details though you made an excellent post.
It's Graf Canada these days. Swiss made Graf's are a better quality product, which you can't get over here in NA.

Anyway, I wasn't speaking about the locations of the two companies. I was commenting on this tidbit - I can't speak about Florida or anywhere else but here in Ontario (origin of more elite hockey players than anywhere else on the planet).

I know they make those other products, they just aren't relative to the discussion or in the marketplace for that matter.

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04-28-2010, 05:32 PM
  #39
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I know they make those other products, they just aren't relative to the discussion or in the marketplace for that matter.
Really? Not what you said before...your words a few posts up:

Quote:
You'd think when the only thing you make is skates you'd do it better than anyone else, too bad they don't.

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04-28-2010, 06:16 PM
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Really? Not what you said before...your words a few posts up:
I think he has a nasty case of amnesia.

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04-28-2010, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by The ORB View Post
On your first point yes his store is here in the GTA and you may be correct. Maybe they do have issue with US distribution, I can only comment on what I know first hand.

As for your second point. TBLfan called Graf a bottomfeeder and then stated that Graf Canada is a joke. His words not mine! He took the opportunity to turn a Graf thread into a Bauer infomercial with a healthy slice of Graf bashing.

I think a lot of the advances Bauer are making are great and doubtless filter through the industry, but some of it is a little overblown with marketing hype and still doesn't address the issues that Bauers don't fit everyone very well.

It's certainly not Bauer bashing, its not Canada chest thumping (dont know how our buddy stick9 conjured that one up) its just an appreciation of Graf making a great product. Nothing more.
No one ever stated that Bauers fit everyone, although they have had four different fits in their skate line up until now, in which they have three.

Go look at my responses, the first one stated that Grafs were originally designed to be used with the Tuuk holder. No promotion of Bauer here.

The second post stated the valid points that Graf has a rather extensive line of "high-end" product that can handcuff some retailers and their limited ability to carry stock. I also mentioned that Graf is a bottomfeeder, which it is. Graf has an extremely low marketshare in North America at the retail and pro level, which is also true. I lastly mentioned that even some refs, which have been known in the past to wear Graf are switching to different brands. Again, no promotion of Bauer here.

Third post, I mentioned that Bauer was the industry leader in innovation as a point to say that any retailer would be foolish to drop the most popular, most innovative skate line on the market. I also discounted that Grafs are a "performance skate," because they aren't. Upon making that statement I mentioned Easton, Bauer as well as CCM's technological advances. Total Bauer lovefest here.

Then my fourth post I state some of the innovations you seem to refuse exist, including innovations from Easton, CCM and stating that Kor was on the same level as Bauer. I also mentioned that there was nothing wrong with a Graf-type of product, the issue is in their QC and CS.

Where is this Bauer infomercial? I've stated product advances from every prominent company, including Graf's single advancement, their composite outsole.

You then mock the fusion steel and reflex inserts, while ignoring the material advancements mentioned. Just to make clear what you're mocking; Fusion steel reduces weight, which will help performance while maintaining strength. Every company, including Graf, has tried to get the weight of steel down while retaining strength. CCM did it with the rocket runner but there was an issue with sharpening. Bauer finally was able to fuse aluminum and steel to keep strength, reduce weight and kept it retro-fittable. The reflex inserts allow you to adjust the stiffness of the forward flex, whether you like it or not, this is a great idea. Adjusting flex for weight, strength and form sure worked well for composite hockey sticks. The lower cut boot was Bauer answering what people wanted in a skate. First people wanted more lateral support so they made the boot taller. The skates were later made to be stiffer so that the boot would flex and recoil, the problem was the boot was now taller and many were having issues flexing the boot. There was an issue with the taller cut boot being stiffer, so comes the return of the shorter cut boot.

As far as "slamming Graf." If a company is known to screw over customers by not honoring their warranties on defective products they deserve to be "slammed" when someone asks about information about the company. Bauer has had some QC issues with mismounting of holders, the difference is Bauer will replace them immediately. Easton was just as good with their skates and the glue issue, it seemed like everyone that owned Easton S15s got a warranty replacement or two from Easton. CCM did the same thing with the original U+ line.

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04-28-2010, 09:12 PM
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Cant comment on Graf's CS, but I can comment on Bauer which treated me better than I could have wanted, with me now wearing TOs in replacement of some warrantied One95s.

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04-28-2010, 10:11 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by The ORB View Post

I think he has a nasty case of amnesia.
Pff, gimmie a break. Graf is known for their skates, that's their thing and has been for a long long time. If you need to bring their sticks and protective into the conversation, you're grasping at straws.

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04-28-2010, 11:19 PM
  #44
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I am weighing in here...

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Originally Posted by TBLfan View Post
I also mentioned that Graf is a bottomfeeder, which it is.
Please explain this derogatory term. Are you claiming that they sell only to the bottom of the marketplace? What are you trying to say?

Quote:
Graf has an extremely low marketshare in North America at the retail and pro level, which is also true.
As I mentioned above, so what? Apple Computer, Rolls Royce and Mercedes have low market share - perhaps like Graf they do not seek to be the highest volume seller, aka a Volkswagon? Are these brands "bottomfeeders" as well?

Quote:
I lastly mentioned that even some refs, which have been known in the past to wear Graf are switching to different brands. Again, no promotion of Bauer here.
This statement was made without evidence.

Quote:
Third post, I mentioned that Bauer was the industry leader in innovation as a point to say that any retailer would be foolish to drop the most popular, most innovative skate line on the market.
As the other poster said, this statement makes you sound like Bauer employee, its "marketing speak", and without evidence, is just hot air...

Quote:
I also discounted that Grafs are a "performance skate," because they aren't.
Is that true because YOU said so? Maybe you ARE trying to negatively impact their sales

How you can make this claim, given that many pros wear their skates, and the level of respect the firm has from many people who have worn them for years - and can afford any skate out there - is just absurd.

Quote:
Then my fourth post I state some of the innovations you seem to refuse exist, including innovations from Easton, CCM and stating that Kor was on the same level as Bauer. I also mentioned that there was nothing wrong with a Graf-type of product, the issue is in their QC and CS.
Which even a cursory web search will show has been cleared up several years ago. Unlike some companies who will try to obfuscate their errors, Graf owned up to having some CS issues - and fixed them.

The most respected ice hockey equipment store here in Manhattan, Westside Skate - sells Grafs, not Bauer, Reebok, etc. With 8 million people here, and thousands of ice hockey players, I'd imagine that if they couldn't do well selling them, and needed to carry other brands due to demand, then they'd carry them. But they don't.

Quote:
As far as "slamming Graf." If a company is known to screw over customers by not honoring their warranties on defective products they deserve to be "slammed" when someone asks about information about the company.
This is a libelous statement, and I would suggest you do not make such statements in the future, you are jeopardizing the board which can be sued for retaining posts like this...

Normally, I avoid silly arguments like this on the forum, as I'm here to enjoy a friendly conversation, and learn from the people here - most of whom know much more than me. But your heavy-handed comments required a response, and I think some of your Bauer comments sounded like promotional pap.

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04-29-2010, 12:47 AM
  #45
Gunnar Stahl 30
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Originally Posted by nystromshairstylist View Post
I am weighing in here...
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This statement was made without evidence.
visual evidence would probably be the biggest thing.ive noticed taht as well. I THINK that most refs used graf skates because they were black but now alot of refs are wearing one95s, totalones, rbks and so on, some still have grafs though

Quote:
As the other poster said, this statement makes you sound like Bauer employee, its "marketing speak", and without evidence, is just hot air...
if you want evidence take a look around the nhl. look at how many nhl players wear bauer. compare it to the ones that wear graf. this isnt a marketing thing on teh part of bauer, these pros will wear what they want, as you admit later in your post, and most want bauer and the least worn skate is probably graf. there must be a reason behind it

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Is that true because YOU said so? Maybe you ARE trying to negatively impact their sales

How you can make this claim, given that many pros wear their skates, and the level of respect the firm has from many people who have worn them for years - and can afford any skate out there - is just absurd.
they arent a performance skate the same way wooden sticks arent a performance sticks. and on the same token some pros use wooden sticks, and shoot just fine with them, its just a matter of whats comfortable to them, but the technology is miles ahead at bauer


Quote:
Which even a cursory web search will show has been cleared up several years ago. Unlike some companies who will try to obfuscate their errors, Graf owned up to having some CS issues - and fixed them.

The most respected ice hockey equipment store here in Manhattan, Westside Skate - sells Grafs, not Bauer, Reebok, etc. With 8 million people here, and thousands of ice hockey players, I'd imagine that if they couldn't do well selling them, and needed to carry other brands due to demand, then they'd carry them. But they don't.
that doesnt negate the fact the most pros wear bauer. imagine if they sold other skates than just graf. if they are doing that well just selling graf(well first of all there are alot of people not wearing the skate they want and were probably pressured into buying a skate that might not fit best) imagine how well they would do if they carried the more popular skate brands like bauer, easton, rbk and ccm

Quote:
This is a libelous statement, and I would suggest you do not make such statements in the future, you are jeopardizing the board which can be sued for retaining posts like this...
there has been alot more pointed posts than TBLfan

and his statement is true, my brotehr experienced it first hand when his grafs broke right after he got them and many others have too

Quote:
Normally, I avoid silly arguments like this on the forum, as I'm here to enjoy a friendly conversation, and learn from the people here - most of whom know much more than me. But your heavy-handed comments required a response, and I think some of your Bauer comments sounded like promotional pap.
most importantly, TBLfan and Heat McManus are 2 of the most knowledgeable posters on the forums when it comes to equipment. these are two of the posters that when i see they posted something in here i make sure i read it

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04-29-2010, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by nystromshairstylist View Post
The most respected ice hockey equipment store here in Manhattan, Westside Skate - sells Grafs, not Bauer, Reebok, etc. With 8 million people here, and thousands of ice hockey players, I'd imagine that if they couldn't do well selling them, and needed to carry other brands due to demand, then they'd carry them. But they don't.
There's a bit more to it than that, but ok. I have the utmost respect for Dave and his work, but it's not as cut and dry as that.

I'll confirm tomorrow, but I'm almost 100% positive that they get a good deal of calls for Bauer skates. They are a small store, REALLY small. I don't know how they'd be able to carry all the Graf models they want, other types of equipment AND full lines of Vapor and Supremes.

You're also contradicting yourself by saying that commercial success means nothing but that Graf must be good because WSS does well carrying only Graf. A store could do very well JUST carrying Bauer, but it doesn't mean Bauer is the best product.

I've known TBL for a few years and he's anything but a Bauer shill or a Graf assassin. If you check other boards like ModSquadHockey you'll hear what he's saying echoed a good deal.




- EDIT

as far as refs go, refs traditionally wore all black skates. Despite popular belief it was never mandatory, just preferred. For a long time, Graf was the closest thing to a black skate available so many refs chose to go with Graf. Since Bauer has come out with the One95 a lot of refs have been wearing Bauer. Just go to NHL.com and look through game photos. Lots of One95s.


Last edited by Heat McManus: 04-29-2010 at 12:58 AM.
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04-29-2010, 09:46 AM
  #47
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This is a libelous statement, and I would suggest you do not make such statements in the future, you are jeopardizing the board which can be sued for retaining posts like this...

Normally, I avoid silly arguments like this on the forum, as I'm here to enjoy a friendly conversation, and learn from the people here - most of whom know much more than me. But your heavy-handed comments required a response, and I think some of your Bauer comments sounded like promotional pap.
nystromshairstylist - I'm calling you out on this one. Anyone who's been around long enough knows, TBLfan knows what he's talking about. Probably more so than anyone else here....with a few exceptions who I can count on one hand.

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04-29-2010, 10:13 AM
  #48
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I run a hockey shop that used to carry Graf.

In my experience, Graf is the worst company I have ever dealt with in any facet of retail.

1. They can't get booking orders out on time. (we canceled ours when it was like 8 months late)

2. They are terrible with repairs and honoring warranties. I have like 10 examples of this, and I get pissed even thinking about it.

If you buy Graf, just hope you don't need warranty service, and make sure those holders are mounted properly.

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04-29-2010, 12:22 PM
  #49
The ORB
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Originally Posted by DevsFan84 View Post
I run a hockey shop that used to carry Graf.

In my experience, Graf is the worst company I have ever dealt with in any facet of retail.

1. They can't get booking orders out on time. (we canceled ours when it was like 8 months late)

2. They are terrible with repairs and honoring warranties. I have like 10 examples of this, and I get pissed even thinking about it.

If you buy Graf, just hope you don't need warranty service, and make sure those holders are mounted properly.

I have bought Graf and have never needed the warranty service. Awesome skates in my experience and in that of those whose opinions I respect.

I can only assume these Graf issues were either a predominantly US issue or an issue that was rectified some years ago, because around here at least they are highly regarded by people who really know their hockey.

Anecdotally, the only gear that has truly failed me this year has been a pair of Bauer pants that my daughter used for less than 3 months of rep hockey and they fell apart. Utter garbage. Bauer were not interested in refunding or replacing them since I didn't keep my original receipt, thankfully since I'm a good customer and they were a little embarrassed by Bauers response the store gave me a 50% discount on a replacement pair of Tacklas which have been awesome so far. Then again she loves her Vapor gloves, One95 stick and quite likes her Bauer helmet too. Go figure.

Anyway I'll leave the discussion there as I don't want to get further sucked into a juvenile HF boards brand wars, just not happy seeing blatant brand bashing going unchecked on a public forum.

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04-29-2010, 12:31 PM
  #50
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If I heard Graf was going out of business I would immediately go buy 2 new pairs to keep for when my skates were done. My grandfather skated til' he was 75 and I plan to do tge same. 2 extra pairs would last me the rest of my life no doubt. I am 29. Nuff' said.

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