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So...you still wanna fire Homer?

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Old
04-27-2010, 12:38 PM
  #101
Jester
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
When has he said that? I think Emery's injury was a disaster. You could make the case that Emery's results shouldn't be evaluated with out considering his injury, but I'm not buying that.

The effect of the "disaster" that was Ray Emery's season on my evaluation of Holmgren's performance is mitigated by the freak nature of his injury. Had Emery's season gone awry for foreseeable reasons, then it would be different.
At the STH meeting.

Independent on whatever brought about the necrosis, he'd already missed significant time with the abdominal thing, which was a major contributing factor to the team falling apart in late November/December, and why we're a 7 seed.

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04-27-2010, 06:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
At the STH meeting.

Independent on whatever brought about the necrosis, he'd already missed significant time with the abdominal thing, which was a major contributing factor to the team falling apart in late November/December, and why we're a 7 seed.
Right, which did suck. I just don't see how it reflects poorly on a GM that one of his athletes gets injured. The nature of the disaster is somewhat mitigating in terms of it's effect on how I view Holmgren's performance.

Whether or not you liked Bouch as the back up plan is a worthwhile discussion, and a fair criticism, but you didn't have an issue with him backing Ray up, right?

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04-27-2010, 10:16 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Right, which did suck. I just don't see how it reflects poorly on a GM that one of his athletes gets injured. The nature of the disaster is somewhat mitigating in terms of it's effect on how I view Holmgren's performance.

Whether or not you liked Bouch as the back up plan is a worthwhile discussion, and a fair criticism, but you didn't have an issue with him backing Ray up, right?
I had a problem with Boucher backing up Ray Emery, I do not have a problem with Boucher as a "backup." Ray Emery hadn't shouldered the load that he would have to shoulder in order to be a starting goalie in the NHL the previous two seasons... given the assets we gave up last summer to get Pronger, and make this a "go for it" season, I thought it was poor planning to tie your fate to a goalie of questionable staying power for the NHL grind.

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04-27-2010, 10:50 PM
  #104
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There are three keys to being a good GM in today's NHL.

1) Talent Evaluation

2) Cap Management

3) Asset Management

Homer gets a failing grade on two of these keys, and one quick glance at his resume should be sufficient enough for all to figure out what those two keys are.

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04-28-2010, 07:33 AM
  #105
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In before "Homer should've seen Lappy's injury coming and not to sign him"

Not that I'd like him to continue as GM but people repeating Homer should have seen Emery's injury coming is just silly.

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Old
04-28-2010, 08:16 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
WHEN MANY OF THE MAJOR HOCKEY PUBLICATIONS PREDICT THE FLYERS TO WIN THE CUP IN THE PRESEASON YOU CAN'T BE MAD AT THE GM OF THE FLYERS WHEN THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN.
It's not just the publications. There are folks RIGHT HERE ON THIS THREAD who said the Flyers had the best roster in the East when this season began. Best forward corps, best defense - that's what they said.

Now they want to fire Holmgren for putting that team together. Odd.

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04-28-2010, 10:38 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by TheKingPin View Post
To the OP:

Ive stopped commenting on these threads because of the overall negativity here. There are some posters that are realistic, there are some that are more fair weather and you can see it game to game as far as their feelings towards the team, then there are a few that are ALWAYS down. We win 7-1 and they are talking about the lost faceoffs or the amounts of penalties we took. I see a lot of the third type on this thread.

WHEN MANY OF THE MAJOR HOCKEY PUBLICATIONS PREDICT THE FLYERS TO WIN THE CUP IN THE PRESEASON YOU CAN'T BE MAD AT THE GM OF THE FLYERS WHEN THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN.

All the Gm can be asked to do is make a good team on paper...half of you should be mad at Hartnell and Briere sucking, JVR and Giroux not stepping up, Carter, Gagne, Emery, Lieghton and Backlund getting injured. Any team putting out two complete 5 man line combos that we can and then still have a the rest of a line up we do should win.
Who cares what the publications have to say? Really. I'm sure someone picked the Flames in those publications, so are Flames fans supposed to not be mad they missed the playoffs?

Games aren't played on paper, so it's pointless to suggest that putting the best team on paper absolves him of any fault. He's wasted our cap space, most prospect, a lot of draft picks which put us in a position to not be able to legitimately improve the team during the season. And when he sold out for Pronger, that took ALL EXCUSES off the table for not doing it.

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04-30-2010, 10:56 AM
  #108
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[Mod Edit] He took a team that was last one season and in the playoffs the next. He can't be blamed because the players dont play the way they suppose to. And here we are in the semis


Last edited by Opus: 04-30-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: removed the flame-bait
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04-30-2010, 10:59 AM
  #109
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He took a team that was last one season and in the playoffs the next. He can't be blamed because the players dont play the way they suppose to. And here we are in the semis
You do realize that Homer got that team from worst to playoffs by spending a crap load of money on free agents, and it was a team that already had two young top prospects on it in Carter and Richards, right?

It wasn't exactly rocket science.

Moreover, rebuilding is something that I would expect Holmgren to be good at, as he's got a very good eye for talent. He's just awful at managing the salary cap, and asset management. Those latter two things are pretty important to being a GM in the NHL these days.


Last edited by Opus: 04-30-2010 at 11:19 AM. Reason: fixed quoted post
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04-30-2010, 11:36 AM
  #110
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If Holmgren is going to stay GM we need to bring in someone Joe Banner like to assist him. I think that he is a very good talent evaluator, and is willing to do whatever it takes to put a winning team together, but he has screwed up so many things in trying to do so. He needs someone to offset his gunslinger mentality.

We probably have people in place that are supposed to be cap experts, and either they aren't very good or they need more say in the decision making process.

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04-30-2010, 11:51 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
If Holmgren is going to stay GM we need to bring in someone Joe Banner like to assist him. I think that he is a very good talent evaluator, and is willing to do whatever it takes to put a winning team together, but he has screwed up so many things in trying to do so. He needs someone to offset his gunslinger mentality.

We probably have people in place that are supposed to be cap experts, and either they aren't very good or they need more say in the decision making process.
Ugh... as long as the Joe Bannerish person keeps their mouth shut and let's Holmgren do the talking to the fans, fine. But it's bad enough that we have to be lectured by Banner year after year about "how great the Eagles are" and "how far under the cap they are."

One thing about the Flyers organization, they don't talk down to the fans like the Eagles do.

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04-30-2010, 08:39 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Protest the Hero View Post
If Holmgren is going to stay GM we need to bring in someone Joe Banner like to assist him. I think that he is a very good talent evaluator, and is willing to do whatever it takes to put a winning team together, but he has screwed up so many things in trying to do so. He needs someone to offset his gunslinger mentality.

We probably have people in place that are supposed to be cap experts, and either they aren't very good or they need more say in the decision making process.
can someone please explain to me why holmgren has this reputation as a very good talent evaluator? after reviewing the last 10 yrs of the draft and all his trades, i do not see it. we are bottom 3 in the organizational rankings. does anybody remember
klotz as a third round pick

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04-30-2010, 08:56 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
can someone please explain to me why holmgren has this reputation as a very good talent evaluator? after reviewing the last 10 yrs of the draft and all his trades, i do not see it. we are bottom 3 in the organizational rankings. does anybody remember
klotz as a third round pick
We are bottom three on hfboards. Half our prospects have graduated, while the other ones look like they can turn into 3rd/4th line guys. Any guys that are 3rd-7th round and have a chance to play in the NHL is a positive.

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05-01-2010, 12:30 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
can someone please explain to me why holmgren has this reputation as a very good talent evaluator? after reviewing the last 10 yrs of the draft and all his trades, i do not see it. we are bottom 3 in the organizational rankings. does anybody remember
klotz as a third round pick
Hey, I rip on Homer's ability to manage assets and the salary cap, because, well, he makes it so easy to do. He has no clue in those areas. None.

That said, he's been involved heavily for a long time in the Flyers organization, as far as scouting and drafting. I think you'll find that Philly has been one of the better franchises, as far as overall draft record goes. Homer is a big part of that, and deserves credit.

If you're gonna rip on Homer for his shortcomings (and I most certainly do), then in all fairness, you have to praise his good traits as well.

The man knows good hockey players, and he has a pretty good idea how to build a roster that can win. If he had any clue about how to manage the salary cap and his assets, he'd be a pretty damn good GM, to be honest with ya.

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05-01-2010, 11:16 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
can someone please explain to me why holmgren has this reputation as a very good talent evaluator? after reviewing the last 10 yrs of the draft and all his trades, i do not see it. we are bottom 3 in the organizational rankings. does anybody remember
klotz as a third round pick
Sbisa

JVR
Marshall
Kalinski
Maroon

Giroux
Nodl
Bodrov
Mastumoto
Lehtivuori

Downie
Bartulis

probably a bomb year

Carter
Richards
Fraser
Picard
Potulny

Pitkanen

Sharp
Seidenberg

Justin Williams
Cechmanek

That's a pretty good draft record.

Now, trades are asset management... and asset management is a massive failure by Holmgren.

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05-01-2010, 11:39 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
The man knows good hockey players, and he has a pretty good idea how to build a roster that can win. .
Ehhhh.....not so sure I buy that argument, but I agree with everything else you're saying. He certainly has scored us some absolute gems in the late first and later rounds.

But as for a team that can win, we'll see how the rest of this spring rolls on. But he has yet to put together a team that has comfortably made it into the playoffs, let alone actually won anything. He's adding more and more pieces, sure, but his shortcomings in cap and asset management may ultimately doom this roster to being so close, but so far....

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05-01-2010, 11:45 AM
  #117
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Ehhhh.....not so sure I buy that argument, but I agree with everything else you're saying. He certainly has scored us some absolute gems in the late first and later rounds.

But as for a team that can win, we'll see how the rest of this spring rolls on. But he has yet to put together a team that has comfortably made it into the playoffs, let alone actually won anything. He's adding more and more pieces, sure, but his shortcomings in cap and asset management may ultimately doom this roster to being so close, but so far....
He always seems to create a team with a glaring weakness that he doesn't address. Couple years ago it was defense (leading to the Carle trade), this year we had no real third line structure and goaltending was an issue.

Some of this is because we're so tight to the cap...but, yeah.

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05-01-2010, 12:15 PM
  #118
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Hey, I rip on Homer's ability to manage assets and the salary cap, because, well, he makes it so easy to do. He has no clue in those areas. None.

That said, he's been involved heavily for a long time in the Flyers organization, as far as scouting and drafting. I think you'll find that Philly has been one of the better franchises, as far as overall draft record goes. Homer is a big part of that, and deserves credit.

If you're gonna rip on Homer for his shortcomings (and I most certainly do), then in all fairness, you have to praise his good traits as well.

The man knows good hockey players, and he has a pretty good idea how to build a roster that can win. If he had any clue about how to manage the salary cap and his assets, he'd be a pretty damn good GM, to be honest with ya.
So, in essence, you're saying that Holmgren would be great in the non-salary cap era and didn't have to make trades. Like, baseball let's say. The Blue Jays should've hired him

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05-01-2010, 05:28 PM
  #119
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Ehhhh.....not so sure I buy that argument, but I agree with everything else you're saying. He certainly has scored us some absolute gems in the late first and later rounds.

But as for a team that can win, we'll see how the rest of this spring rolls on. But he has yet to put together a team that has comfortably made it into the playoffs, let alone actually won anything. He's adding more and more pieces, sure, but his shortcomings in cap and asset management may ultimately doom this roster to being so close, but so far....
Well see, I think he's tied his own hands, as far as being able to bring in the final pieces to win a Cup (this team isn't complete, and needs some real good luck to win it all). I think he knows the kind of players he wants, and where he needs them in the lineup, but its hard to get those players when you've ****ed up our cap situation and pissed away all of our assets that we could realistically trade.

I have no problem with Homer, as far as his personnel decisions. For the most part, he's done a pretty good job there. I'm not defending his overall performance as a GM, but I think he's better than most at judging talent and fit. If he was half as good at managing the cap and his assets, this franchise would be in spectacular shape.

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05-01-2010, 05:31 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
So, in essence, you're saying that Holmgren would be great in the non-salary cap era and didn't have to make trades. Like, baseball let's say. The Blue Jays should've hired him
Ha! Come to think of it, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying

I honestly believe he'd build a Cup contender if he didn't have to worry about the cap, which would also mean young, cheap assets are less important in the grand scheme of things. I think he'd have a better shot at it, anyway.

But alas, there is a salary cap, and I'm not sure he's the guy to give this franchise another parade. In fact, I'm pretty sure he's NOT that guy.

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05-01-2010, 06:08 PM
  #121
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So...you still wanna fire Homer?

Not if he signs this guy . . . .


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05-03-2010, 03:36 AM
  #122
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The worst part about Homer taking over as GM -- aside from his atrocious cap management, of course -- is the fact that our scouting department has experienced a noticeable plunge in quality. It's odd, because we had some really good drafts when he was Director of Player Personnel/Assistant GM (I guess he just isn't as intricately involved in scouting anymore because of all the other duties required of a GM). Our last three drafts, since Homer became GM, haven't really been that impressive. I mean, which of the players that he has drafted, aside from JVR, at the moment actually look like they might have a real shot at being significant contributors in the NHL? Maroon? What's the deal with Ericsson? I'm still smarting over the Garrett Klotz selection in the third round of 2007. I'd love to know exactly what was going on in Homer's brain when he made that pick (it should tell you something that Klotz wasn't even entertaining the thought of being selected when he got the call).

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05-03-2010, 10:45 AM
  #123
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The worst part about Homer taking over as GM -- aside from his atrocious cap management, of course -- is the fact that our scouting department has experienced a noticeable plunge in quality. It's odd, because we had some really good drafts when he was Director of Player Personnel/Assistant GM (I guess he just isn't as intricately involved in scouting anymore because of all the other duties required of a GM). Our last three drafts, since Homer became GM, haven't really been that impressive. I mean, which of the players that he has drafted, aside from JVR, at the moment actually look like they might have a real shot at being significant contributors in the NHL? Maroon? What's the deal with Ericsson? I'm still smarting over the Garrett Klotz selection in the third round of 2007. I'd love to know exactly what was going on in Homer's brain when he made that pick (it should tell you something that Klotz wasn't even entertaining the thought of being selected when he got the call).
Sbisa...

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05-03-2010, 11:53 AM
  #124
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Sbisa...
what about him? what exactly has he done so far? Granted he is still considered a high end prospect. I do not think he is going to be this stud dman most belive he will become. Not even clsoe to that.

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05-03-2010, 12:11 PM
  #125
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what about him? what exactly has he done so far? Granted he is still considered a high end prospect. I do not think he is going to be this stud dman most belive he will become. Not even clsoe to that.
Maybe, maybe not. But he looks like he clearly has the talent to play on a 2nd pairing in the not too distant future. Didn't look out of place at all in the Olympics, too.

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