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How would you rate our scouting??

View Poll Results: Grade The Kings Scouting Staff
A 33 46.48%
B 34 47.89%
C 4 5.63%
D 0 0%
F 0 0%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-04-2010, 09:10 AM
  #26
Chruceg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZZIE King View Post
If you're going PRO scouting...I'd give that a D EASY...
Where is this coming from? Are you saying their ability to find weaknesses in the other team to exploit is lacking? Are you saying that their ability to identify quality players to go get in a trade is lacking? What level of pro scouting are you talking about? Across the board through the minors or just the NHL?

I have arguments against all of them but I'll let you choose first.

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05-04-2010, 09:36 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Where is this coming from? Are you saying their ability to find weaknesses in the other team to exploit is lacking? Are you saying that their ability to identify quality players to go get in a trade is lacking? What level of pro scouting are you talking about? Across the board through the minors or just the NHL?

I have arguments against all of them but I'll let you choose first.
Try arguing this:


Randy "The JACKASS" Jones!

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05-04-2010, 10:11 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kurrilino View Post

The fact is we had many top 5 picks and none of them are already
a winnign factor for the Kings.

The Bad:

draft 2003: 3 first rounder with 2 busts........
Draft 2002: Holy ****.... complete failure
Draft 2001: Except Cammy in 2nd round complete failure
Draft 2004: These scouts belong to be punished
Draft 2005: beside Kopitar a failure
Draft 2006: two 1st rounders and no one makes the team right now
4 years after the draft
Well one of those top five picks you mention is Drew Doughty. Not sure how a Norris Trophy candidate doesn't bring a winning factor to the Kings though.

As for drafts from 2001 to 2006, I'm not sure if the current scouting department was involved in any of them, and that's what the poll was about, the current scouting staff. DL I think was at the 2006 draft and that's where we got Jonathan bernier. I know he hasn't made the team yet, but he's one of the best prospects in the NHL and may be the best goalie outside the NHL right now other than maybe Markstrom. I don't think DL's staff was in place on this draft yet, but DL was there and you know he had a lot of say in picking Bernier, given DT's stubborness on picking a goalie in the first round.

I agree that DT's scouting team was extremely flawed (the whole concept of never drafting a goalie in the first round because Jamie Storr was a flop was the most idiotic idea I had ever heard), but under DL, the scouting is better and there have been very few misses. In fact, I'd argue that only Trevor Lewis can be listed as a flop of a first rounder at the moment, and like I said, I don't think that was a complete DL scouting staff pick.

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05-04-2010, 10:16 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
It's early on most of the picks, but I gave a solid "B".

For all of those saying that Doughty was a slam dunk, should dig up some old threads. Many people had Bogosian as the safer pick and higher upside. Even at the start of this season there were people talking about how Bogosian should have been picked over Doughty.
I will freely admit I had Bogosian first, Doughty second, Pietroangelo third among the big three. I thought Doughty wasn't going to be big enough and fast enough to be as good as he was in junior, though I did think he'd still be a solid NHLer. Frankly I wasn't upset if we took any of the three, I just expected Bogosian to be the better of the three, and saw him as a Pronger type of player.

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05-04-2010, 10:33 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I think one thing to remember is that Myers was considered a bit of a project when he was drafted. He really didn't "breakout" until the WJC 6 months later. It's not like Lombardi and co. passed on what many scouts considered to be a sure bet or anything. It's the same reason John Carlson fell to #27 overall. Carlson's resume consisted of one very good season in the USHL but he was an unknown before that. A lot of scouts weren't convinced yet. Then he went to the OHL after the draft and dominated and Washington knew they had a steal on there hands.

It's a crap shoot. Every team hits and misses but I think overall the current staff has done a very good job. Now we just need to find a Pavelski in the 7th round.
That's what I remember hearing about Myers back at the draft.

Also, Pavelski was a 7th rounder? damn. Dude has been clutch this playoffs.

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05-04-2010, 10:37 AM
  #31
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Anyway, I'd give them an A. This current management has taken the team's prospect pool from dry to one of the better pools in the league. Not all positions are stocked, but there's definitely enough flexibility now to make roster moves to fit the team's needs, and the team has plenty of depth at D, Center, and Goalie. If the wings had a bit more depth, it'd be A+ all the way. I find it hard to ask for much more, at least so far.

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05-04-2010, 11:09 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Where is this coming from? Are you saying their ability to find weaknesses in the other team to exploit is lacking? Are you saying that their ability to identify quality players to go get in a trade is lacking? What level of pro scouting are you talking about? Across the board through the minors or just the NHL?

I have arguments against all of them but I'll let you choose first.
NHL scouting mostly... When you uncover "gems" like Jones...Halpern...the Beachball...Turnoverdovsky...Preissing...Goat Boy...Blake...and the likes of these guys at the pro level...you KNOW you're in trouble.. I'd prefer that my cats bury these in the litter box when they're through...

I can only count JMFJ...Smyth...Greene...Zeus...and Scuderi as the true positives here...

The "bubble boys" are 2% Stoll...Modin...Williams and Odie...

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05-04-2010, 11:20 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by RAZZIE King View Post
NHL scouting mostly... When you uncover "gems" like Jones...Halpern...the Beachball...Turnoverdovsky...Preissing...Goat Boy...Blake...and the likes of these guys at the pro level...you KNOW you're in trouble.. I'd prefer that my cats bury these in the litter box when they're through...

I can only count JMFJ...Smyth...Greene...Zeus...and Scuderi as the true positives here...

The "bubble boys" are 2% Stoll...Modin...Williams and Odie...
Take each of these in to perspective and they made sense....

Jones... half price salary and giving up no picks/prospects for a D-man on a 1 year deal, when you need help on a thin blueline, who your coach is familiar with? No brainer

Halpern- I am not crazy about the deal either but, The Kings did badly need some more experience and He was one of our best FO guys and PKers in the playoffs.

The Beachball: I only have circumstantial evidence but I am 99% sure this was to appease and help hire Crawford.

Turnoverdovsky- Negative asset to acquire Johnson, Carolina needed to free up some salary and we in turn gave up less to acquire JJ.

Preissing- place holder like Calder. Most people were correct when they said that He wouldn't finish that contract in LA.

Goat Boy- The Kings got a placeholder and a draft pick to acquire him. Deals like this are a no brainer for a rebuilding team.

Blake- After losing out on Chara, they needed a #1 dman, leadership, and well He was a former King. (for the record I HATE Blake and was not happy to see him back either)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZZIE King View Post

I can only count JMFJ...Smyth...Greene...Zeus...and Scuderi as the true positives here...
Handzus?
Richardson?
Smyth?

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Old
05-04-2010, 12:20 PM
  #34
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Since 2007 (when Lombardi fired Al Murray and replaced the entire scouting staff) they have drafted...

Hickey, Moller, Simmonds, Martinez, Doughty, Teubert, Voynov, Loktionov, Campbell, Czarnik, Wudrick, Schenn, Clifford, Deslauriers, Kolomatis, Vey, Kozun...

All players who have had some form of success at varying levels. Six of the names listed above have appeared in NHL games, a lot of them have represented their respective national teams in international tournaments and they are still developing and learning their craft in Manchester or in juniors. I'd say they have done a remarkable job of stockpiling assets. The scouting staff that Dean Lombardi has already gotten results with more to come.

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05-04-2010, 12:31 PM
  #35
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I would give them a solid C+, too.

Kings are drafting pretty well from the OHL, but quite poorly from the WHL.

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05-04-2010, 01:45 PM
  #36
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I would give them a solid C+, too.

Kings are drafting pretty well from the OHL, but quite poorly from the WHL.
Hickey, Teubert, UFA signing Jones (who has to be credited to the stocking staff), Schenn, Kozun, Moller isn't successful? I know none have established themselves as NHlers yet, but all are highly regarded prospects in NHL circles.

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05-04-2010, 02:10 PM
  #37
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Hickey, Teubert, UFA signing Jones (who has to be credited to the stocking staff), Schenn, Kozun, Moller isn't successful? I know none have established themselves as NHlers yet, but all are highly regarded prospects in NHL circles.
I guess some people are expecting every draft pick to turn out to be the next Joe Sakic

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05-04-2010, 02:58 PM
  #38
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Halpern- I am not crazy about the deal either but, The Kings did badly need some more experience and He was one of our best FO guys and PKers in the playoffs.
... Yeah, for the record, none of this is true.

Halpern was the fourth option on faceoffs and his percentage was well worse than Stoll's as well as Kopitar's. Only Handzus had a worse percentage than Halpern, and that's misleading at best because Handzus was taking FAR more draws against tougher faceoff opponents.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll

Halpern was on the ice for 10 minutes and 57 seconds of the Kings' 35:59 on the PK, that's 30%. He was third in Kings' forwards in PK ice time, and that's misleading because Modin and Richardson had virtually as much PK time as Halpern did.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...Name=timeOnIce

And despite being on the ice for just 30% of the Kings' PK time, Halpern was on the ice for 5 of the 6 goals, or 83% of the Kings goals allowed on the PK.

2 2 3:09 PP VAN 26 M.SAMUELSSON(1) 22 D.SEDIN(1) 6 S.SALO(1) LA: 7, 8, 22, 28, 32 VAN: 1, 6, 22, 26, 33, 38

2 2 3:36 PP VAN 5 C.EHRHOFF(1) 23 A.EDLER(1) 42 K.WELLWOOD(2) VAN: 1, 5, 17, 18, 23, 42 LA: 2, 6, 22, 28, 32

7 3 12:16 PP VAN 6 S.SALO(1) 33 H.SEDIN(4) 22 D.SEDIN(3) VAN: 1, 3, 6, 22, 26, 33 LA: 2, 6, 22, 26, 32

8 3 6:31 PP VAN 26 M.SAMUELSSON(7) 6 S.SALO(2) LA: 2, 6, 22, 28, 31 VAN: 1, 6, 22, 26, 33, 38

2 2 8:38 PP VAN 18 S.BERNIER(4) 23 A.EDLER(2) VAN: 1, 5, 17, 18, 23, 42 LA: 2, 6, 22, 28, 32

The Kings PK percentage was 75%, which is poor. Halpern was driving that figure down with his performance. So, what's more likely true is that Halpern was one of the Kings' WORST PK'ers, not one of their best.

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05-04-2010, 03:05 PM
  #39
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You would have to go through each of those goals and convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals.

Zues, Stoll, Green and OD were also on the ice for most of those goals you mentioned, and I'm not about to consider any of them poor PKers based on those stats.

Not enough evidence.

From my seats, which are in 315, far away from the NHL.com stat page, Halpern finally showed his usefulness in the playoffs. If the stat page were the best way to evaluate a player, then there would be a lot of video review guys around the league without jobs.

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05-04-2010, 03:06 PM
  #40
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I get where some are coming from saying that Doughty was a no brainer pick, but remember there was still a lot of talk going on to determine who was best between him, Bogosian, and Pietrangelo.

So: A.

I wouldn't ding for Myers one bit. No one then could have known how good he was going to be, and Lombardi wanted to inject a mean streak into the team, and Teubert was definitely in that mold. Same with Kyle Clifford last year over some other guys like Rajala and Tatar.

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05-04-2010, 03:15 PM
  #41
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You would have to go through each of those goals and convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals.
... With all due respect, the hell I have to. LBFF's statement was that Halpern was one of the best faceoff men and PK'ers the Kings had in the playoffs. My statement was that he was not, and I backed that up with those facts in my post. They're legit, not cherry-picked. Are you saying that the fact that the Kings were bad on the PK with him on the ice makes him a GOOD PKer? Or that everyone else on the ice was bad except him? "Halpern finally showed his usefulness in the playoffs" isn't evidence. That's a baseless, biased, and subjective opinion. If you want to prove your point, YOU do the work. I'm not here to prove your points, JDM.

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05-04-2010, 03:28 PM
  #42
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... With all due respect, the hell I have to. LBFF's statement was that Halpern was one of the best faceoff men and PK'ers the Kings had in the playoffs. My statement was that he was not, and I backed that up with those facts in my post. They're legit, not cherry-picked. Are you saying that the fact that the Kings were bad on the PK with him on the ice makes him a GOOD PKer? Or that everyone else on the ice was bad except him? "Halpern finally showed his usefulness in the playoffs" isn't evidence. That's a baseless, biased, and subjective opinion. If you want to prove your point, YOU do the work. I'm not here to prove your points, JDM.
I don't care to prove my opinion. Its my opinion for a reason.

ANd I think you are getting a little up in arms about a slight typo I noticed I made in the sentence you quoted.

What reads: "You would have to go through each of those goals and convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals."

Should read: "You would have to go through each of those goals TO convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals.

You don't have to do anything, my point was that I'm not convinced. ANd I wasn't making any point other than that those stats are not enough for me to say Halpern is bad on the PK. I didn't say they prove anything. My stance is they prove nothing.

Again, from my seats, I saw Halpern blocking shots and making nice clearing plays. I don't recall once saying "****ing Halpern cost us that goal."

Again, video replay is the way to go in evaluating a player. Some things are cut and dry, others are not, no matter how hard you try to come up with a mathematical way to show it. This isn't baseball.

I don't know why those goals against were scored. I remember most of them being either absolute laser shots by Samuelsson or ridiculous plays by one of the Sedin's.

None of the Kings could shut down those three players, which is why we lost the series. Singling out Halpern in that regard is lame.

But yes, you proved Bunny's point that Halpern was the best FO man was technically incorrect. So, um, bravo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch
Halpern was driving that figure down with his performance. So, what's more likely true is that Halpern was one of the Kings' WORST PK'ers, not one of their best.
This is where I have a problem. Halpern driving the figure down is a biased assumption on your part. Show me exactly where Halpern specifically made mistakes that resulted in those goals and I'll believe you.

I don't need to prove my own point to myself, because I already believe it.

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05-04-2010, 03:58 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Since 2007 (when Lombardi fired Al Murray and replaced the entire scouting staff) they have drafted...

Hickey, Moller, Simmonds, Martinez, Doughty, Teubert, Voynov, Loktionov, Campbell, Czarnik, Wudrick, Schenn, Clifford, Deslauriers, Kolomatis, Vey, Kozun...

All players who have had some form of success at varying levels. Six of the names listed above have appeared in NHL games, a lot of them have represented their respective national teams in international tournaments and they are still developing and learning their craft in Manchester or in juniors. I'd say they have done a remarkable job of stockpiling assets. The scouting staff that Dean Lombardi has already gotten results with more to come.
This looks pretty solid to me. I give them an A- for the time period defined above. For people giving C's, I'm just curious what teams you think deserve an A for this time period and list their top talent younger than 22. Washington and maybe Chicago are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head with multiple difference makers < 22 yrs.

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05-04-2010, 04:08 PM
  #44
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I don't care to prove my opinion. Its my opinion for a reason.

ANd I think you are getting a little up in arms about a slight typo I noticed I made in the sentence you quoted.

What reads: "You would have to go through each of those goals and convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals."

Should read: "You would have to go through each of those goals TO convince me with specific reasons why Halpern's supposed mistakes cost goals.

You don't have to do anything, my point was that I'm not convinced. ANd I wasn't making any point other than that those stats are not enough for me to say Halpern is bad on the PK. I didn't say they prove anything. My stance is they prove nothing.

Again, from my seats, I saw Halpern blocking shots and making nice clearing plays. I don't recall once saying "****ing Halpern cost us that goal."

Again, video replay is the way to go in evaluating a player. Some things are cut and dry, others are not, no matter how hard you try to come up with a mathematical way to show it. This isn't baseball.

I don't know why those goals against were scored. I remember most of them being either absolute laser shots by Samuelsson or ridiculous plays by one of the Sedin's.

None of the Kings could shut down those three players, which is why we lost the series. Singling out Halpern in that regard is lame.

But yes, you proved Bunny's point that Halpern was the best FO man was technically incorrect. So, um, bravo.



This is where I have a problem. Halpern driving the figure down is a biased assumption on your part. Show me exactly where Halpern specifically made mistakes that resulted in those goals and I'll believe you.

I don't need to prove my own point to myself, because I already believe it.
Yeah, this is why I have had JT Dutch on ignore for a while now.

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05-04-2010, 04:17 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
I don't care to prove my opinion.
... I know that! Because you can't really do it.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
You don't have to do anything, my point was that I'm not convinced. ANd I wasn't making any point other than that those stats are not enough for me to say Halpern is bad on the PK.
... Who was worse than him? Which forward was worse than Halpern on the PK? You tell me.

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Again, from my seats, I saw Halpern blocking shots and making nice clearing plays.
... When? Do you remember? That's why people bother to write it down and keep track of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
I don't know why those goals against were scored.
... I know you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Singling out Halpern in that regard is lame.
... Again, the quote was he was one of the Kings' BEST PK'ers. Mine was that he was one of the worst. You say he "proved his worth" ... how? By skating off the ice after another PP goal was scored by the Canucks? By losing faceoffs? By being passed over for faceoffs on the PK in favor of Stoll and Handzus?

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This is where I have a problem. Halpern driving the figure down is a biased assumption on your part.
... What was he doing, then? Driving it UP? Improving it? Keeping it the same?

It's pretty convenient to say statistics mean nothing if you don't agree with them, isn't it? Then you can go and say things like "from my seats", implying that those who don't agree with you didn't watch the game, also convenient.

Two of the Canucks PP goals were scored by defensemen in the series; both in game 4. One of them, Ehrhoff's goal, was scored after he had a huge amount of space to take his time, creep in, and score. Do you know who was originally in that space? Halpern was. He vacated that spot to drift toward the left wing boards as the puck was sent around, but couldn't get there in time and was stuck in no-man's land. The puck was sent back to Ehrhoff and Halpern was too far away to get back to him. Who do you put that goal against on, except for Halpern? That's just one goal I actually went back and checked on.

The point is that beyond that one goal, what did he do to prevent the others? He may not have been THE player most responsible for the other goals against, but did he do anything positive there? Who did worse up front on the PK than Halpern did? You can say that the numbers don't always tell the story -- and of course they do not -- but if you're gonna go against them, what's your case? "From my seats, Halpern showed his worth, and I don't care to prove my opinion"? Yeah, OK man, whatever you say there.

Speaking of things that are convenient, it's also funny that LBFF has me on ignore because that way he can freely make stuff up and never be called out on it; that's awesome. Just thought I would drop that in too.

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05-04-2010, 04:18 PM
  #46
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Bernier will be the best thing for the Kings PK anyways.

Once Luongo started making some big saves, the Canucks PK was 90%.

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05-04-2010, 04:27 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
Two of the Canucks PP goals were scored by defensemen in the series; both in game 4. One of them, Ehrhoff's goal, was scored after he had a huge amount of space to take his time, creep in, and score. Do you know who was originally in that space? Halpern was. He vacated that spot to drift toward the left wing boards as the puck was sent around, but couldn't get there in time and was stuck in no-man's land. The puck was sent back to Ehrhoff and Halpern was too far away to get back to him. Who do you put that goal against on, except for Halpern? That's just one goal I actually went back and checked on.
OK, now that I consider some evidence. Not enough, but good.

Quote:
The point is that beyond that one goal, what did he do to prevent the others?
Last time I checked the stats don't say how many goals weren't scored because Halpern made a good play. That's why I don't like stats, they only tell one side of the story.

And as for only disliking stats when they don't jive with my point, hogwash. I never really use stats. I don't use them to support my points or discounts others'. I just don't care that much about them. Watching the games is more telling, and more fun.

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05-04-2010, 04:37 PM
  #48
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Yeah, this is why I have had JT Dutch on ignore for a while now.
Can you add me to your ingore list?

I love JT!!!

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05-04-2010, 04:37 PM
  #49
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Can you add me?

I love JT!!!
Done

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05-04-2010, 04:39 PM
  #50
Black1963
Weal Deal, No Doubt!
 
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: O.C. California
Country: United States
Posts: 11,464
vCash: 1840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Bunny Foo Foo View Post
Done
I won't ignore you because I learn to forgive and forget the likes of you and Loktionov.

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