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How would you rate our scouting??

View Poll Results: Grade The Kings Scouting Staff
A 33 46.48%
B 34 47.89%
C 4 5.63%
D 0 0%
F 0 0%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-04-2010, 04:41 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I won't ignore you because I learn to forgive and forget the likes of you and Loktionov.
When did you get so hostile?

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05-04-2010, 04:42 PM
  #52
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When did you get so hostile?
Who's hostile?

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05-04-2010, 05:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RAZZIE King View Post
NHL scouting mostly... When you uncover "gems" like Jones...Halpern...the Beachball...Turnoverdovsky...Preissing...Goat Boy...Blake...and the likes of these guys at the pro level...you KNOW you're in trouble.. I'd prefer that my cats bury these in the litter box when they're through...

I can only count JMFJ...Smyth...Greene...Zeus...and Scuderi as the true positives here...

The "bubble boys" are 2% Stoll...Modin...Williams and Odie...
Little Bunny Foo Foo addressed the majority of it so I won't repeat what he said. The point which he touched on briefly that I want to expand on is the time when those pickups occurred. Cloutier, Teverdosky, Preissing, Gauthier and Blake were all bridge players that Dean picked up when he needed warm bodies to fill his boxes. Hell you could add Nagy, Modry, Lundmark, Heward, Stuart, Calder, and Moulson to the list. But in the past two years he stopped taking on anyone that would walk through the door and started taking only quality. Look at the past two years and the only questionable pick up is Jones who was brought in on a one year contract at half price to hold down the last spot on the roster. (And even Diehard can see why we got him in the first place.)

I would also like to add Quincey to the quality pick up list.

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05-04-2010, 06:01 PM
  #54
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I would subtract Moulson from the list, MM proved that we made love to the dog by letting him walk.

The rest makes sense to me though.

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05-04-2010, 06:06 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I would subtract Moulson from the list, MM proved that we made love to the dog by letting him walk.

The rest makes sense to me though.
(Emphasis mine)

My logic was that it was poor scouting on the part of the Kings to let him go. Scouting their own team in a sense. Either way I think we largely agree.

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05-04-2010, 06:11 PM
  #56
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Oh, thanks for the clarification, my bad.

Looking at it that way we are in step with the rest.

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05-04-2010, 06:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
(Emphasis mine)

My logic was that it was poor scouting on the part of the Kings to let him go. Scouting their own team in a sense. Either way I think we largely agree.
I think that's 1/3 of the equation

I think another 1/3 is Matt Moulson himself said He never felt comfortable with the Kings and things just clicked on Long Island

The other 1/3 Tavares. I think Tavares is big part of Moulson's success. Remember when Yachmenev did while on Gretzky's wing.

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05-04-2010, 08:25 PM
  #58
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I gave a B overall.

On the drafting/amateur side, it looks good. Simmonds is a gem and Loktionov, Jones, and Kozun are looking like good pick-ups. While I view Doughty more as a we-sucked-achievement-reward, it wasn't a slam dunk between him and Bogosian (although the majority did have Doughty before Bogosian; IIRC, it was 4 for Doughty and 3 for Bogosian; I think he was also a fairly big favorite on HF). Teubert's been disappointing but overall it looks good (much, of course, is TBD).

The pro side could use improvement, although it's been better lately. My scorecard:

Good/Looking Good: Quincey, Handzus, Richardson, Scuderi, Greene, Stuart, Modin, O'Donnell, Tukonen/Clune
Average/TBD: Smyth and Williams (both looked good prior to injuries but struggled afterwards and were ghosts in the playoffs), Stoll, Modry (could bump him to good), Thornton, Gauthier, Tverdovsky, Willsie
Bad/Looking Bad: Cloutier, Blake, McCauley, Preissing, Nagy, Calder, Jones, Moulson, Halpern, Zeiler (3 years NHL side guaranteed on his contract), Cammalleri


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05-04-2010, 09:06 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by William H Bonney View Post
I think one thing to remember is that Myers was considered a bit of a project when he was drafted. He really didn't "breakout" until the WJC 6 months later. It's not like Lombardi and co. passed on what many scouts considered to be a sure bet or anything. It's the same reason John Carlson fell to #27 overall. Carlson's resume consisted of one very good season in the USHL but he was an unknown before that. A lot of scouts weren't convinced yet. Then he went to the OHL after the draft and dominated and Washington knew they had a steal on there hands.

It's a crap shoot. Every team hits and misses but I think overall the current staff has done a very good job. Now we just need to find a Pavelski in the 7th round.
Which is what a lot of people tend to completely ignore. He was considered a project much like Teubert is. Noone foresaw anything close to the explosion in his developmental curve that happened.

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05-04-2010, 09:16 PM
  #60
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Handzus?
Richardson?
Smyth?
How the **** did I miss Richardson on the positive side???

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05-04-2010, 09:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Chruceg View Post
Little Bunny Foo Foo addressed the majority of it so I won't repeat what he said. The point which he touched on briefly that I want to expand on is the time when those pickups occurred. Cloutier, Teverdosky, Preissing, Gauthier and Blake were all bridge players that Dean picked up when he needed warm bodies to fill his boxes. Hell you could add Nagy, Modry, Lundmark, Heward, Stuart, Calder, and Moulson to the list. But in the past two years he stopped taking on anyone that would walk through the door and started taking only quality. Look at the past two years and the only questionable pick up is Jones who was brought in on a one year contract at half price to hold down the last spot on the roster. (And even Diehard can see why we got him in the first place.)

I would also like to add Quincey to the quality pick up list.
****, CRAP, MUTHA FATHER

I hate being used to support positions I dont agree with.

Yeah, I know why he was brought in. But what I dont know is why we continued to use the bum after he continually **** the bed. DL could have tried to acquire a D-man at the deadline instead of Halpern, and it would have made a far bigger impact. Of course no one knows if he did or didnt, but I sure do wish we could find out.

I can't (and wont) argue that our scouting isn't good. The pipeline is stocked far more than ever before, and many of the young guys look like they can make an impact when they are given the chance to make the jump.

Heck for years we didnt have first round picks because we always used them to get over the hill has beens (HOLY CRAP -- SJ just tied it up) and the picks that we did have rarely seemed to make it up or have an impact when they were givwen the shot.

No doubt that the UFA pickups have been a mixed bag, but it also appears that DL doesn't want to give up alot of the picks he spent years acquiring.

In my mind, its all relative, and the fact that so many of the hockey reports have the Kings prospect pool ranked highly is evidence that our scouting is doing a good, if not great, job.

But as I have said before, please dont let me see the JACKASS (or some other iteration of him) in a Kings uni again!

Give one of the kids the chance instead. none of them could have been as bad as Jones. Honestly, as Voinov has hinted before that if he doesn't get the chance after three years he will leave, maybe he should be given first crack.

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05-05-2010, 12:03 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
****, CRAP, MUTHA FATHER

I hate being used to support positions I dont agree with.

Yeah, I know why he was brought in. But what I dont know is why we continued to use the bum after he continually **** the bed. DL could have tried to acquire a D-man at the deadline instead of Halpern, and it would have made a far bigger impact. Of course no one knows if he did or didnt, but I sure do wish we could find out.

I can't (and wont) argue that our scouting isn't good. The pipeline is stocked far more than ever before, and many of the young guys look like they can make an impact when they are given the chance to make the jump.

Heck for years we didnt have first round picks because we always used them to get over the hill has beens (HOLY CRAP -- SJ just tied it up) and the picks that we did have rarely seemed to make it up or have an impact when they were givwen the shot.

No doubt that the UFA pickups have been a mixed bag, but it also appears that DL doesn't want to give up alot of the picks he spent years acquiring.

In my mind, its all relative, and the fact that so many of the hockey reports have the Kings prospect pool ranked highly is evidence that our scouting is doing a good, if not great, job.

But as I have said before, please dont let me see the JACKASS (or some other iteration of him) in a Kings uni again!

Give one of the kids the chance instead. none of them could have been as bad as Jones. Honestly, as Voinov has hinted before that if he doesn't get the chance after three years he will leave, maybe he should be given first crack.

I didn't even want to touch that post, and you got quoted for support.

What the hell is a bridge player? That's something Lombardi made up to explain his crappy job performance. Jesus.

Sometimes I think I should try to start a cult. Between the headline media, Internet propaganda or just plain old American laziness - brought to new heights, I'm thinking I could get a whole lot of people to believe a whole lot of dumb ****....as long as I made it sound good.

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05-05-2010, 11:53 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by kingsfan View Post
Hickey, Teubert, UFA signing Jones (who has to be credited to the stocking staff), Schenn, Kozun, Moller isn't successful? I know none have established themselves as NHlers yet, but all are highly regarded prospects in NHL circles.
Hickey is an undersized and injuryprone. He was questionable pick then and even more questionable now. Or do you honestly belive that he will be one day a top 4 d-man in the NHL?

Teubert just doesn't have hockeysense and is an average skater at best, especially laterally. If he really is a highly regarded prospect, why Kings send him to Ontario, not to Manchester?

Kozun. I don't belive that he will ever play a game in the NHL. He is just so small. But he was a sixth rounder, so that was a good pick, because there is a little chance he pans out.

Moller. I'd like him, but he has to produce more. He could be our "scott nichol", spark plug. I'm a little worried, because he after he hurt his shoulder - was it shoulder? - in the WJC he hasn't looked as promising as earlier.

Schenn. Didn't impress me in the WJC. Good hands, but skating was an another story. He looked smaller than 6'0 / 198. Maybye he is a next Doug Gilmour, maybye Jamie Lundmark.

Martin Jones was a good FA-signing and also Dwight King was a good pick. But three 1st round picks and only one NHL-game and zero points.

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05-05-2010, 12:03 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
What the hell is a bridge player? That's something Lombardi made up to explain his crappy job performance. Jesus.
A bridge player is a warm body while you plan to suck.

Now I think what happened is that since DL's mandate was originally to rebuild while still staying competitive, he signed those guys to fool ownership. "hey look, I got all these FAs to help. Blake is a future hall of famer. Cloutier is a number 1 goalie!, etc, etc" when all along DL knew these players sucked. He wanted them to suck, because he wanted top 5 draft picks. So by signing these guys he was able to help lead ownership down the path he wanted. Had he just not even tried, they would have fired him for not attempting to stay competitive. By signing those idiots and allowing them to follow through on their major failures, he was then able to say "See, I tried. It doesn't work. I need to suck for a few years."

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05-05-2010, 12:18 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
I didn't even want to touch that post, and you got quoted for support.

What the hell is a bridge player? That's something Lombardi made up to explain his crappy job performance. Jesus.

Sometimes I think I should try to start a cult. Between the headline media, Internet propaganda or just plain old American laziness - brought to new heights, I'm thinking I could get a whole lot of people to believe a whole lot of dumb ****....as long as I made it sound good.
A placeholder.

Sport's version of hiring someone from Apple One until the person is ready to take the position.

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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
A bridge player is a warm body while you plan to suck.

Now I think what happened is that since DL's mandate was originally to rebuild while still staying competitive, he signed those guys to fool ownership. "hey look, I got all these FAs to help. Blake is a future hall of famer. Cloutier is a number 1 goalie!, etc, etc" when all along DL knew these players sucked. He wanted them to suck, because he wanted top 5 draft picks. So by signing these guys he was able to help lead ownership down the path he wanted. Had he just not even tried, they would have fired him for not attempting to stay competitive. By signing those idiots and allowing them to follow through on their major failures, he was then able to say "See, I tried. It doesn't work. I need to suck for a few years."
There was a farmer had a dog & bingo was his name-o.


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05-05-2010, 12:52 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
I didn't even want to touch that post, and you got quoted for support.

What the hell is a bridge player? That's something Lombardi made up to explain his crappy job performance. Jesus.

Sometimes I think I should try to start a cult. Between the headline media, Internet propaganda or just plain old American laziness - brought to new heights, I'm thinking I could get a whole lot of people to believe a whole lot of dumb ****....as long as I made it sound good.
Like Jim Jones, you just gotta get them to drink the Kool-Aid!

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05-05-2010, 12:57 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
A bridge player is a warm body while you plan to suck.

Now I think what happened is that since DL's mandate was originally to rebuild while still staying competitive, he signed those guys to fool ownership. "hey look, I got all these FAs to help. Blake is a future hall of famer. Cloutier is a number 1 goalie!, etc, etc" when all along DL knew these players sucked. He wanted them to suck, because he wanted top 5 draft picks. So by signing these guys he was able to help lead ownership down the path he wanted. Had he just not even tried, they would have fired him for not attempting to stay competitive. By signing those idiots and allowing them to follow through on their major failures, he was then able to say "See, I tried. It doesn't work. I need to suck for a few years."
If what you think is true, we have very stupid owners


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05-05-2010, 01:01 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
If what you think is true, we have very stupid owners
It's not and they're not.

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05-05-2010, 01:05 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
If what you think is true, we have very stupid owners
Possibly. But those were also the kind of moves Dave Taylor would have made. Second tier guys, never game breakers. Hell Nagy was was a Czech!

They were short term contracts and/or easily moved. The fans saw things happening in free agency while the infrastructure was being built. He bought time with the owners and public while building the farm system.


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05-05-2010, 01:18 PM
  #70
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Hickey is an undersized and injuryprone. He was questionable pick then and even more questionable now. Or do you honestly belive that he will be one day a top 4 d-man in the NHL?

Teubert just doesn't have hockeysense and is an average skater at best, especially laterally. If he really is a highly regarded prospect, why Kings send him to Ontario, not to Manchester?

Kozun. I don't belive that he will ever play a game in the NHL. He is just so small. But he was a sixth rounder, so that was a good pick, because there is a little chance he pans out.

Moller. I'd like him, but he has to produce more. He could be our "scott nichol", spark plug. I'm a little worried, because he after he hurt his shoulder - was it shoulder? - in the WJC he hasn't looked as promising as earlier.

Schenn. Didn't impress me in the WJC. Good hands, but skating was an another story. He looked smaller than 6'0 / 198. Maybye he is a next Doug Gilmour, maybye Jamie Lundmark.

Martin Jones was a good FA-signing and also Dwight King was a good pick. But three 1st round picks and only one NHL-game and zero points.
Its still early in these players development. Hickey/Moller '07, Teubert '08, Schenn/Kozun '09. Not every player can jump right into NHL ex. Doughty. Let them develop, it takes time. Mike Richards was drafted in '03 and didnt breakout until '07.

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05-05-2010, 01:34 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
If what you think is true, we have very stupid owners
Alright, maybe the fooling part is a stretch, but the rest of my point still stands.

I just seem remember reading that in year 1 DL was told to stay competitive and in year 2 that changed.

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05-05-2010, 02:10 PM
  #72
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I think that we are continually being taken off track on this thread (surprise). There are allot of players being thrown in by both sides of the argument that were drafted *before* Al Murray was fired and DL was able to place his own scouting staff.

I would rephrase the thread question to "What grade would you give our current scouting staff (post 06) and why" and then ask that posters give viable reasons.

If you look at DL and our scouting staff from 07 on and can honestly find a reason to give them a less than above average grade then I would be interested in your position.


As to what makes a draft pick a bust, in my opinion you have to give a player the entire time that he has until he becomes a UFA or, until he washes out of a teams entire minor league system.

Would you have called Matt Moulson a bust? You might but you would have a huge hill to climb in explaining your opinion. Matt left a ufa and signed with someone else and has so far truly succeeded.

Look at John Sim, David Steckel, Jared Smithson etc. Sure these aren't DL post 06 guys but the point stands that simply because a draft pick doesn't make it to the NHL in your system or within his first 4 years doesn't mean that he will never make it.


On Hickey, I agree that he is very fragile and that it is very frustrating but I can sight you more than a dozen other defencemen (a few former Kings even) who had the same hype and the same struggles before making it into the NHL. Would you call Phillipe Boucher a bust? ( wouldn't call PB the player a bust but he certainly sucked for us giving his only good year right before he left us as a ufa).

When it comes to dmen patience is critical, that is part of what makes JJ and especially DD out to be such amazing studs. We are getting them before their 24th b days and they are already both proving to be massively great NHL caliber dmen.

Take a look at how long it took most high caliber NHL dmen to crack the line up and until the past couple of years I think you would be surprised.

I didn't like the Tuebert pick from the gate especially when he cost us one of the best young snipers in the game plus a first round pick to get (that is a terrible deal that will always stand as a black mark against DL in my opinion) him but I would say that he has a long way to go before being labeled a bust.

And about his poor lateral movement I disagree completely. I only saw him play in person four times this past year (not including the wjc's) and while he has a temper that needs to be controlled and needs to look up when he has the puck (a truly frustrating thing to watch him skate with the puck for me) I think his skating isn't going to be a problem.

As to why the ECHL instead of the AHL that is more a matter of space AND how his present and future contractual capacities will be effected by where he plays than a statement about his talent.

On to Kozun not having a shot at the NHL I have to completely disagree and give examples like Stan Johnathan, Theo FLuery, The Squid, Paul kariya to name but a few of the players who where thought to be too small to be truly effective in the NHL that used that criticism to inspire them onto exceptional NHL careers.

Back to my original point though, it takes a long time to determine if a player is going to be a bust and I don't think that our scouting staff has had enough time yet for us to be able to truly judge any of their picks to be a bust yet.

Also, if you think that our scouting staff deserves a low grade score, try comparing them to the rest of the scouting staffs around the league, it might change your mind.

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05-05-2010, 02:37 PM
  #73
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Great post Tonnellisghost, even if it was all already obvious to me.

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05-05-2010, 03:23 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I didn't like the Tuebert pick from the gate especially when he cost us one of the best young snipers in the game plus a first round pick to get (that is a terrible deal that will always stand as a black mark against DL in my opinion)
In the interest of fairness, we did also acquire a 3rd rounder in that deal when they we traded down to the 13th. It was no secret that Cammy didn't want to be here and wanted to test the UFA market. At least DL got something for him.

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05-05-2010, 03:53 PM
  #75
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true, but what motivated him to want to leave? That sits squarely on the shoulders of DL. I can't help but wonder what this last season would have looked like if DL had only admitted his mistake and smoothed things out with squid and brought him back. His 50 points in Habville would have been welcomed here not to mention the space he would have filled. Heck even if he where to have taken Stolls place the productivity level would have signficant imo.

Oh well, for what could have been doesn't matter.

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