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How would you rate our scouting??

View Poll Results: Grade The Kings Scouting Staff
A 33 46.48%
B 34 47.89%
C 4 5.63%
D 0 0%
F 0 0%
Voters: 71. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-05-2010, 03:57 PM
  #76
Gentle Ben Kenobi
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
true, but what motivated him to want to leave? That sits squarely on the shoulders of DL. I can't help but wonder what this last season would have looked like if DL had only admitted his mistake and smoothed things out with squid and brought him back. His 50 points in Habville would have been welcomed here not to mention the space he would have filled. Heck even if he where to have taken Stolls place the productivity level would have signficant imo.

Oh well, for what could have been doesn't matter.
There are a lot of rumors out there.

Some people say that the damage was done under DT. That certain promises were made that weren't fulfilled.

Others say He was not a fan at all of the entire organization during his tenure in LA and Manchester.

Another one is He wanted to play in Canada. He DID ended up signing with a Canadian team for take that FWIW.

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05-05-2010, 04:14 PM
  #77
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Let me ad another rumor then.

He loved living down at the beach by Rob (sort of by Rob) and wanted to stay on the team because he felt that he had found a lifestyle that he wanted to keep. He and Justin Brown have both gone on record saying that they would love to play for a Canadian team at some point in their careers though in JB's case it was pre draft.

I do know for a fact that MC had returned to socal this past off season and went surfing, of course that doesn't mean he wanted to remain a King or anything but it does speak to him liking the area enough to want to be here.

Oh, and I also seem to remember that he was rumored to have been lobbying to stay a King before he was low balled by DL.

I was left with the feeling at the time that DL did what he and other GM's do in negotiating and that is they offer a ridiculously low offer and expect the player to explain why they deserve more and after that they begin the negotiations (like JMFJ etc). Not saying its a fact, just a supposition.

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05-05-2010, 04:22 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Let me ad another rumor then.

He loved living down at the beach by Rob (sort of by Rob) and wanted to stay on the team because he felt that he had found a lifestyle that he wanted to keep. He and Justin Brown have both gone on record saying that they would love to play for a Canadian team at some point in their careers though in JB's case it was pre draft.

I do know for a fact that MC had returned to socal this past off season and went surfing, of course that doesn't mean he wanted to remain a King or anything but it does speak to him liking the area enough to want to be here.

Oh, and I also seem to remember that he was rumored to have been lobbying to stay a King before he was low balled by DL.

I was left with the feeling at the time that DL did what he and other GM's do in negotiating and that is they offer a ridiculously low offer and expect the player to explain why they deserve more and after that they begin the negotiations (like JMFJ etc). Not saying its a fact, just a supposition.
Not really. There are lots of players who spend their summers here. As an example, Sundin spent his summers in LA and he certainly had little to no interest in ever being a King.

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05-05-2010, 04:23 PM
  #79
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Also, I don't see what the big deal about throwing out an initial low ball offer is. Its what happens afterward that matters. Its called negotiations for a reason. A GM would be stupid to start at fair price right off the bat unless you are talking about a franchise player like Kopitar or Doughty.

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05-05-2010, 04:33 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Let me ad another rumor then.

He loved living down at the beach by Rob (sort of by Rob) and wanted to stay on the team because he felt that he had found a lifestyle that he wanted to keep. He and Justin Brown have both gone on record saying that they would love to play for a Canadian team at some point in their careers though in JB's case it was pre draft.

I do know for a fact that MC had returned to socal this past off season and went surfing, of course that doesn't mean he wanted to remain a King or anything but it does speak to him liking the area enough to want to be here.

Oh, and I also seem to remember that he was rumored to have been lobbying to stay a King before he was low balled by DL.

I was left with the feeling at the time that DL did what he and other GM's do in negotiating and that is they offer a ridiculously low offer and expect the player to explain why they deserve more and after that they begin the negotiations (like JMFJ etc). Not saying its a fact, just a supposition.
Well for the sake of argument if So Cal and surfing were that important, He could have signed with the Ducks then right?

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05-05-2010, 04:34 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Let me ad another rumor then.

He loved living down at the beach by Rob (sort of by Rob) and wanted to stay on the team because he felt that he had found a lifestyle that he wanted to keep. He and Justin Brown have both gone on record saying that they would love to play for a Canadian team at some point in their careers though in JB's case it was pre draft.

I do know for a fact that MC had returned to socal this past off season and went surfing, of course that doesn't mean he wanted to remain a King or anything but it does speak to him liking the area enough to want to be here.

Oh, and I also seem to remember that he was rumored to have been lobbying to stay a King before he was low balled by DL.

I was left with the feeling at the time that DL did what he and other GM's do in negotiating and that is they offer a ridiculously low offer and expect the player to explain why they deserve more and after that they begin the negotiations (like JMFJ etc). Not saying its a fact, just a supposition.
who the **** is Justin Brown?

Lots of rumors, sure, but when you hear it from the man's mouth, its hard to argue. DL had NO LOVE for Cammy as a person or a player, didnt value his contributions, and ultimately mismanaged a valuable asset.

Then he used what he could get for him to pick up a project defenseman with average skating skills but a giant mean streak, when the consesus on draft day was that Tyler Myers had a higher upside than Tuebert. Oh well, whats done is done.

Glad Cammy is silencing his critics with strong play and teamwork.
He was on NHL radio this AM speaking with Ken Danyeko and Cammy was talking all teamwork, no glory for himself but saying how the team has come together, fought through injuries and are supporting one another everyway they can. He sounded almost DUSTIN BROWN like in his emphasis and focus on the team aspect of the game. Its probably doesnt hurt that Jacques Martin is his coach either.

He certainly did not sound like the "I-me-mine" type of player so many people on this board have described him as.

Hard as this is to say as a longtime Kings fan, GO HABS.

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05-05-2010, 04:36 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Also, I don't see what the big deal about throwing out an initial low ball offer is. Its what happens afterward that matters. Its called negotiations for a reason. A GM would be stupid to start at fair price right off the bat unless you are talking about a franchise player like Kopitar or Doughty.
Tell that to Cammy. No one ever mentions how low DL's offer was (and yes, I know arbitrator agreed with DL) but everyone talks about the $6 mil or the $5 mil counter offer.

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05-05-2010, 04:37 PM
  #83
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On the Sundin thing, I bet he would have signed here if offered.

On the offer thing that was my point, DL did what GM's do and low balled an offer expecting Pat and Mike to come back with why they felt he deserved significantly more but, as rumored MC was insulted and whatever else happened.

No big deal on lowball offers but if a young budding star gets offended or feels that his abilities aren't appreciated and bolts then that is part of it too.

I would think that starting out with what you feel an arbitrator might give as your lowball that there is more room.

How about this, JMFJ got low balled and was pretty p.o.'d or so it is said (and judging by the deal he signed it seems to have some relevance) but signed his contract. How confident are you that he will sign another contract with us?

How about this, how will you feel if DD gets bent out of shape for being low balled by DL and decides that he can do better elsewhere?

I am not saying that either will happen, just pointing out that it can be risky to go too low when starting negotiations with the highly important positions in your organization.

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05-05-2010, 04:39 PM
  #84
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JB, justin brown is an old joke that was beaten to death, sorry if it went past you. Before he was drafted there were allot of posters that made the "J" mistake regarding dustin. I sort of liked it and still call him Justin as a result.

Its better than Dustbin or Darren right?

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05-05-2010, 04:42 PM
  #85
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Oh and I've been hanging around the Habs boards since we were eliminated cheering on Squid and the Habs.

I am happy that he has gone on to prove what several of us knew at the time and that is that he is a unique talent who had many more than "one dimension".

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05-05-2010, 09:30 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
How about this, JMFJ got low balled and was pretty p.o.'d or so it is said (and judging by the deal he signed it seems to have some relevance) but signed his contract. How confident are you that he will sign another contract with us?
Very confident. Like 90% confident. He's a restricted free agent after this contract is up and I don't see the Kings letting him walk if some other team signs him- DL will match the offer.

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05-05-2010, 09:34 PM
  #87
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Well, then time will prove you out.

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05-05-2010, 09:40 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
JB, justin brown is an old joke that was beaten to death, sorry if it went past you. Before he was drafted there were allot of posters that made the "J" mistake regarding dustin. I sort of liked it and still call him Justin as a result.

Its better than Dustbin or Darren right?
Got it. And yes it went right over my head, but by your response you obviously knew I was just giving you Grief

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Oh and I've been hanging around the Habs boards since we were eliminated cheering on Squid and the Habs.

I am happy that he has gone on to prove what several of us knew at the time and that is that he is a unique talent who had many more than "one dimension".
He's really is still one dimensional: as long as that dimension is that of a team player who is willing to do whatever is needed and he is capable of doing in order for his team to win.

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05-05-2010, 09:43 PM
  #89
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I did.

Also perfectly said about MC DHKF.

I think MC's one dimension is that he is a top shelf forward/sniper who can play every forward position as well as the point on the PP and not kill you if he has to back up.

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05-06-2010, 12:52 AM
  #90
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If DL had offered Mike Cammalleri a 5 year, 25 million extension after his 80 pt season he would have signed it and he would still be a King today. But I guess this "Didn't want to be a King" bs will take on a false life of its own, just like the false rumor that he was going to use the Van Ryn rule if the Kings didn't open the vault for him, when the truth was that he wanted to finish his senior season at UM and it was Taylor who was pressuring him to sign.

Anyways, the trade wouldn't be that awful had the Kings taken Meyers or any of Karlsson, Del Zotto or Carlson.

I like our scouting staff, but how on Earth could they have compared Teubert and Meyers, two guys who played in the same league and thought Teubert was the better pick, its amazing.

As for Hickey...I don't have a problem with the pick, but just wish the Kings had traded down, not sure Hickey was proper value for the #4 pick.

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05-06-2010, 09:37 AM
  #91
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Hickey is an undersized and injuryprone. He was questionable pick then and even more questionable now. Or do you honestly belive that he will be one day a top 4 d-man in the NHL?

Teubert just doesn't have hockeysense and is an average skater at best, especially laterally. If he really is a highly regarded prospect, why Kings send him to Ontario, not to Manchester?

Kozun. I don't belive that he will ever play a game in the NHL. He is just so small. But he was a sixth rounder, so that was a good pick, because there is a little chance he pans out.

Moller. I'd like him, but he has to produce more. He could be our "scott nichol", spark plug. I'm a little worried, because he after he hurt his shoulder - was it shoulder? - in the WJC he hasn't looked as promising as earlier.

Schenn. Didn't impress me in the WJC. Good hands, but skating was an another story. He looked smaller than 6'0 / 198. Maybye he is a next Doug Gilmour, maybye Jamie Lundmark.

Martin Jones was a good FA-signing and also Dwight King was a good pick. But three 1st round picks and only one NHL-game and zero points.
If Hickey hadn't been injured all season, I might agree with you. Until last season most people, including HF, had him rated very highly, even above Alzner, who everyone wanted us to pick. Give Hickey a full pro season before you right him off.

As for Teubert, maybe the chance to play big minutes might have affected that? I mean Manchester had a pretty good D, including Martinez, Voynov, etc. Why let him sit as a depth player or break up the teams chemistry when he can get more minutes in Ontario? Just because a guy plays 10 games in the ECHL doesn't make him a bust. Once again, give him at least one full pro season before you write him off.

For the record too, The Hockey News Future Watch still had both as top 75 prospects.

Kozun, once again, let's see what he can do at the pro level. He obviously impressed DL and crew enough to garner a contract, something Cameron did not, despite putting up good numbers as well. Kozun also looked damn good at the WJC, and the fact he made it when it would have been easy for the coaching staff to cut a 6th round pick without feeling any heat speaks volumes.

Schenn- How you can be disappointed in Scheen is beyond me. He did play in an NHL game just months after being drafted, was a point short of 100 on the season, had a great playoffs once again and I personally thought he did well at the WJC also. You may not, and that's fine, but it's not like you can argue you went there and stunk out the place. He did pick up eight points, good for fourth amongst forwards, so it's not like he was a slouch out there. He may be Jamie Lundmark, who knows, but you can only judge someone on what they've done thus far and he hasn't dropped in stock since he was drafted.

Frankly I don't know what you are expecting from the scouting staff. Hickey and Teubert are defensemen, and they take longer to develop, and the rest are either more recent or lower round selections, which also typically takes time. All you can do is judge players on what they have done and thus far none of the guys you have listed have really dropped in stock, with the possible exception of Hickey, and once again that'd be due to injury. Let's see what he looks like after a full AHL season.

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05-06-2010, 10:27 AM
  #92
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Frankly I don't know what you are expecting from the scouting staff. Hickey and Teubert are defensemen, and they take longer to develop, and the rest are either more recent or lower round selections, which also typically takes time. All you can do is judge players on what they have done and thus far none of the guys you have listed have really dropped in stock, with the possible exception of Hickey, and once again that'd be due to injury. Let's see what he looks like after a full AHL season.
I really think Doughty gave a lot of our fans unrealistic expectations about young D prospects.

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05-06-2010, 10:46 AM
  #93
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I really think Doughty gave a lot of our fans unrealistic expectations about young D prospects.
I also think more teams are putting players who are still on their ELCs in the NHL due to cap reasons. The Cap era has accelerated player development, especially for 1st round picks.

I have no problem with the way Hickey and Teubert are progressing. If every pick turned into a star before 24, you would be out of cap space very quickly.

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05-06-2010, 03:27 PM
  #94
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If DL had offered Mike Cammalleri a 5 year, 25 million extension after his 80 pt season he would have signed it and he would still be a King today. But I guess this "Didn't want to be a King" bs will take on a false life of its own, just like the false rumor that he was going to use the Van Ryn rule if the Kings didn't open the vault for him, when the truth was that he wanted to finish his senior season at UM and it was Taylor who was pressuring him to sign.

Anyways, the trade wouldn't be that awful had the Kings taken Meyers or any of Karlsson, Del Zotto or Carlson.

I like our scouting staff, but how on Earth could they have compared Teubert and Meyers, two guys who played in the same league and thought Teubert was the better pick, its amazing.

As for Hickey...I don't have a problem with the pick, but just wish the Kings had traded down, not sure Hickey was proper value for the #4 pick.
Maybe it had something to do with that fact that at the time Myers was considered a project as well and hadnt broken out? Noone had any idea that Myers was going to explode developmentally and do what hes doing. The Myers hype didnt start until after the draft. Hindsight is always 20/20.

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05-07-2010, 09:24 AM
  #95
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Maybe it had something to do with that fact that at the time Myers was considered a project as well and hadnt broken out? Noone had any idea that Myers was going to explode developmentally and do what hes doing. The Myers hype didnt start until after the draft. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Buffalo's scouts obviously did. So the response to your post is really: Yes and No. Tuebert was projected as the mean streak Defensive defenseman by the scouting agencies pre-draft. I think no one in the KINGS organization could honestly tell (sell) you on Tuebert ever being anything other than a 5-6 d-man

Myers was projected as a more offensive minded project but with a considerably higher upside.
He was rated as a better skater, and more offensive minded, but DL wanted Tuebert's edge. I dont think you necessarily use first round draft choices to fill your #5-6 defenseman roles.

This draft pick, IMHO, is a function of DL's planning system of filling in boxes to project a team into the future filled with homegrown talent . That Myers had a higher upside, IIRC, was a given (i.e., known) to all the scouting reports before the '08 draft.

Only his development occurred AFTER. But what is scouting and drafting? Its projecting, into the future, what a player is capable of based upon their size, skillset and physcial abilities. Myers, pre-'08 draft, had the best of all three of those characteristics over Tuebert. Plus, he provided some offense. What he didnt possess was Tuebert's mean streak. Hence DL's comment (paraphrased), you can't paint stripes on a *****cat and call it a tiger.

DL drafted Tuebert for a very particular trait, and whether Tuebert has the OTHER REQUIREMENTS to make it to the NHL remains to be seen (and it is still "early"), but MYERS was the surer bet, and we passed him over for a mean streak. I gave the scouting a very good grade, but the jury is still out on this pick, while in the courtroom next door (Buffalo) they already hit big.


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05-07-2010, 10:24 AM
  #96
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Buffalo's scouts obviously did. So the response to your post is really: Yes and No. Tuebert was projected as the mean streak Defensive defenseman by the scouting agencies pre-draft. I think no one in the KINGS organization could honestly tell (sell) you on Tuebert ever being anything other than a 5-6 d-man

Myers was projected as a more offensive minded project but with a considerably higher upside.
He was rated as a better skater, and more offensive minded, but DL wanted Tuebert's edge. I dont think you necessarily use first round draft choices to fill your #5-6 defenseman roles.

This draft pick, IMHO, is a function of DL's planning system of filling in boxes to project a team into the future filled with homegrown talent . That Myers had a higher upside, IIRC, was a given (i.e., known) to all the scouting reports before the '08 draft.

Only his development occurred AFTER. But what is scouting and drafting? Its projecting, into the future, what a player is capable of based upon their size, skillset and physcial abilities. Myers, pre-'08 draft, had the best of all three of those characteristics over Tuebert. Plus, he provided some offense. What he didnt possess was Tuebert's mean streak. Hence DL's comment (paraphrased), you can't paint stripes on a *****cat and call it a tiger.

DL drafted Tuebert for a very particular trait, and whether Tuebert has the OTHER REQUIREMENTS to make it to the NHL remains to be seen (and it is still "early"), but MYERS was the surer bet, and we passed him over for a mean streak. I gave the scouting a very good grade, but the jury is still out on this pick, while in the courtroom next door (Buffalo) they already hit big.
Yep

I 100% agree.
Our scouting staff screwed the pooch here.

But they have done enough other good things so I am not going to dwell on it.

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05-07-2010, 10:54 AM
  #97
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12 teams passed on Myers, you could assume the Kings did so twice (Doughty taken 2nd and then the Kings moving down a spot to select the player they had targeted in Teubert).

Bogosian, Pietrangelo, Schenn, Filatov, Wilson, Boedker, Bailey, Hodson, Beach, all taken ahead of Myers. You know what they say about hindsight...

Buffalo has also had their fair share of major busts and duds in the first round.
2006- Dennis Persson
2005- Marek Zagrapan
2001- Jiri Novotny
2000- Artem Kryukov
1999- Barret Heisten

They were due to get one right. As has been stated, Myers was viewed as a project, with his intensity and physical game being the two biggest question marks.

With that said, the Kings did address a need and it is one that is still necessary today. The Kings need a physical force on the blueline. Puck movement has been addressed with Doughty and Johnson and upcoming talent like Voynov or Hickey. They don't have a single intimidating or physically imposing figure on defense. Teubert fills that need and he still has tons of room for improvement in all areas of the game.




The thought of a future top six of Doughty, Johnson, Hickey, Teubert, Voynov and Greene is quite appeasing to me.

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05-07-2010, 10:57 AM
  #98
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selecting players at the draft always seemed a lot like playing poker to me. you make the call that you think is best based on the information you have at that moment, and judging after the fact ignores that. what matters is if you make the right call, not whether you actually win the hand, because there's always a large element of luck involved. all you can do is try to maximize your chances so that you'll come out ahead in the long run.

so, was teubert an acceptable call, based on the information that the kings had at the time? that's harder to say than saying that myers has played better since, and must therefore have been a better pick. the fact that lombardi has indicated that they liked teubert's mean streak suggests to me that in their view, there was a range of players of relatively similar potential, thus affording the kings the opportunity to select the characteristics they most desired, since these guys would all have a roughly equal chance of developing into an effective player. if it was clearly a case of myers being objectively better, you have to assume (hope?) that they would have taken myers.

so, i guess ultimately, i'm pretty forgiving of the teubert pick, at least in light of myers's success. i don't really see that myers's success has all that much bearing on the merits of teurbert's selection, because their ability to become nhl players was uncertain in both cases.

but it sure would be nice to have myers, and it's unfortunate that teubert hasn't shown some better hockey sense and discipline. hopefully he does in the future.

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05-07-2010, 01:38 PM
  #99
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Good mention on Martin Jones:
http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...tain-Colt.html

5. Martin Jones, G Calgary Hitmen (WHL): We knew the Dub final would be low-scoring, but Jones is absolutely murdering Tri-City with his work between the pipes. Jones now leads the league in goals-against average with a 2.40 mark and has given up just one goal on 48 shots through two games in the series, both Calgary victories. Signed as a free agent by Los Angeles in 2008.

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05-07-2010, 03:36 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Buffalo's scouts obviously did. So the response to your post is really: Yes and No. Tuebert was projected as the mean streak Defensive defenseman by the scouting agencies pre-draft. I think no one in the KINGS organization could honestly tell (sell) you on Tuebert ever being anything other than a 5-6 d-man

Myers was projected as a more offensive minded project but with a considerably higher upside.
He was rated as a better skater, and more offensive minded, but DL wanted Tuebert's edge. I dont think you necessarily use first round draft choices to fill your #5-6 defenseman roles.

This draft pick, IMHO, is a function of DL's planning system of filling in boxes to project a team into the future filled with homegrown talent . That Myers had a higher upside, IIRC, was a given (i.e., known) to all the scouting reports before the '08 draft.

Only his development occurred AFTER. But what is scouting and drafting? Its projecting, into the future, what a player is capable of based upon their size, skillset and physcial abilities. Myers, pre-'08 draft, had the best of all three of those characteristics over Tuebert. Plus, he provided some offense. What he didnt possess was Tuebert's mean streak. Hence DL's comment (paraphrased), you can't paint stripes on a *****cat and call it a tiger.

DL drafted Tuebert for a very particular trait, and whether Tuebert has the OTHER REQUIREMENTS to make it to the NHL remains to be seen (and it is still "early"), but MYERS was the surer bet, and we passed him over for a mean streak. I gave the scouting a very good grade, but the jury is still out on this pick, while in the courtroom next door (Buffalo) they already hit big.
No they hoped and prayed in their wildest dreams it did. We can sit here and hash it out over and over but the fact still remains the same. Noone knew he was going to do what hes done as soon as hes done it. 19 pts in his draft year 42 the year after to 48 in the NHL the next year? Hindsight is always 20/20. Ill give the scouts **** when Teubert isnt doing anything in the NHL and Myers is doing this year after year.

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