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Old
05-07-2010, 12:39 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
The thing is though, that Biron changed agents and his demands didnt change.
They didn't? How do you know? He just got screwed by the market at that point. There were limited spots, and he got left standing when the music stopped. All the starting goalies last year signed for exceedingly cheap deals (other than Khabi, who got what now appears to be a terrible contract from the Oilers).

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05-07-2010, 12:43 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
They didn't really let him go. His agent royal screwed him, which forced the Flyers to go a different direction.

There were reports he was asking for a long term 5mill/yr deal. That is just ridiculous.
Regardless of the reason, they let him go. Biron's agent was clearly asking for too much and it would have been stupid to pay him $5 mil, but I think they probably could worked something out eventually. I mean he wound up signing for what $1.4 mil? Not blaming anything on Flyers management or anything like that, just saying I wish he would have came back. If nothing else, Biron was consistent. He was an average to above average goalie but he was consistent. Boosh is streak city, Leighton played well but regardless of injury I wasn't expecting that to last. Emery was a bit streaky too which was likely because of his injury, but still. Biron was nothing more and nothing less than solid during his time in Philly. You can't really ask for more out of a goalie. It would be nice to have the Lundqvists or Luongos of the game, there are maybe five or six goalies in the league (if that) that are considered to be elite. I would throw Biron right in the middle of the pack with guys like Ellis who people are saying the Flyers should sign. To me Biron = Ellis = 75% of the goalies in the league.

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05-07-2010, 12:44 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yeah, I agree. I thought he was adequate, just not good enough to win a Cup with.

Right now the teams that need a starter are Philly, St. Louis, Tampa, perhaps Washington, and San Jose if they fail to re-sign Nabokov. Nabby, Turco, C. Mason,and Ellis will be free agents and one of Halak/Price might be dealt. Then there are goalies like Biron/Nitty available. I don't think the Flyers will need to overpay in salary to sign one of these guys since there aren't many teams in need of a starter.

Personally I don't think Turco, Mason, and Ellis are good enough to win a cup with but I expect the Flyers to sign one of the three. If Carchidi is to be believed Ellis might be their guy. He says they like Price, Bernier, and Ellis the most. Bernier is unlikely to be dealt and I don't think they can afford Price which leaves Ellis.
Of the 3 you mentions i would roll the dice with turco for a 2 year deal. I think they could win a cup with him as the change of scenary will do him good. He has his faults but i think he woud be fine. Unless of course they go the young guy route .

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05-07-2010, 12:46 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
They didn't? How do you know? He just got screwed by the market at that point. There were limited spots, and he got left standing when the music stopped. All the starting goalies last year signed for exceedingly cheap deals (other than Khabi, who got what now appears to be a terrible contract from the Oilers).
If Im not mistaken, he changed it BEFORE the Flyers picked up Emery. If they did, why didnt we grab him?

And your absolutely right. All the starting goalies signed for cheap. Biron was greedy and wanted more. I feel like we talk a bout Biron every single month. We really cant just move away from him?

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05-07-2010, 12:46 PM
  #105
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Oh and Alex Tanguay fired the same agent Biron had. Is it a coincidence that they both had problems looking for contracts because they are greedy or the agent want to get more money for himself?

I agree Marty could have done something, but not all players are good at negotiating or assessing the market and leave it up to agents, whom specialize in it. When that specialist fails they move on to another.

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05-07-2010, 12:47 PM
  #106
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I'd still go for Turco over Biron anyday...

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05-07-2010, 12:48 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Regardless of the reason, they let him go. Biron's agent was clearly asking for too much and it would have been stupid to pay him $5 mil, but I think they probably could worked something out eventually. I mean he wound up signing for what $1.4 mil? Not blaming anything on Flyers management or anything like that, just saying I wish he would have came back. If nothing else, Biron was consistent. He was an average to above average goalie but he was consistent. Boosh is streak city, Leighton played well but regardless of injury I wasn't expecting that to last. Emery was a bit streaky too which was likely because of his injury, but still. Biron was nothing more and nothing less than solid during his time in Philly. You can't really ask for more out of a goalie. It would be nice to have the Lundqvists or Luongos of the game, there are maybe five or six goalies in the league (if that) that are considered to be elite. I would throw Biron right in the middle of the pack with guys like Ellis who people are saying the Flyers should sign. To me Biron = Ellis = 75% of the goalies in the league.
I don't think you would get many arguments about wanting to keep Biron on these boards. Most wanted him back, but for something more reasonable. 3yr $3-3.5mill contract.

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05-07-2010, 12:53 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Of the 3 you mentions i would roll the dice with turco for a 2 year deal. I think they could win a cup with him as the change of scenary will do him good. He has his faults but i think he woud be fine. Unless of course they go the young guy route .
At his age he is in a goalie's decline years so I am not sure if it is a change of scenery that he needs, but he might benefit from playing behind the Flyers defense rather than the Dallas D the past two years.

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05-07-2010, 12:54 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If Im not mistaken, he changed it BEFORE the Flyers picked up Emery. If they did, why didnt we grab him?

And your absolutely right. All the starting goalies signed for cheap. Biron was greedy and wanted more. I feel like we talk a bout Biron every single month. We really cant just move away from him?
I have no idea when he fired his agent exactly (I seem to recall it happening after we signed Emery, but perhaps it was before when negotiations fell apart). However, I also think Holmgren had made the decision to go after Emery during the season and signing Biron was never something he was particularly interested in doing. Once he had a deal in place with Emery (well before free agency), there was no reason to bother with Biron...as he (understandably) wanted to be a starter, and the writing was on the wall here with Emery.

And "greedy" remains a far too pejorative word to use to describe the situation.

As to talking about him... I didn't bring him up. If you don't like talking about him...don't talk about him. Not much sense in complaining about it when you're engaging in it yourself.

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05-07-2010, 12:56 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by KimiFerrari View Post
I don't think you would get many arguments about wanting to keep Biron on these boards. Most wanted him back, but for something more reasonable. 3yr $3-3.5mill contract.
Really? I had the distinct impression that most of this board believed he let in too many back breaking goals and were happy to see him go.

I always felt like I was in the minority when I defended Marty.

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05-07-2010, 01:02 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Really? I had the distinct impression that most of this board believed he let in too many back breaking goals and were happy to see him go.

I always felt like I was in the minority when I defended Marty.
I don't know if people didn't want him back at all, so much as we didn't want him back at the price he was asking.

It was all really moot, because Homer had started talking to Emery at midseason.

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05-07-2010, 01:08 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
If Im not mistaken, he changed it BEFORE the Flyers picked up Emery. If they did, why didnt we grab him?
I'm pretty sure he didn't change it until after free-agency began and after he fired his agent.

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05-07-2010, 01:09 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
Marty Biron is criminally under-rated and under-appreciated by just about everyone for whatever reason.
I totally agree. The guy was a good goaltender. He just got screwed up in the head with his contract demands and paid the price. I never hated Biron, yeah I probably got on him when he **** the bed, but overall I thought he did all he could here.

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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
how does an average goalie get underrated?
because people claimed that he sucked, and that is a lie. He was one of the main reasons we got to the ECF 2 years ago and was the only reason we didnt get swept last year.

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Originally Posted by NWO View Post
Biron wasnt nowhere near what you said i agree, he just wasnt good enough to get a team where it needs to go.

Nabby will cost way to much imo. A good gm can get turco for 2 years 5mm imo. Shooter will probably bid against himself and pay a little more. Turco i wuld assume wants to go to a team that has a shot to win. That narrows the field donw. Hawks i dont see having any interest, Caps maybe but doubtful. Leaves the fleyrs. Anyone else?
Biron would have been good behind this defense if we would have kept him. a .915 save percentage on this team would have been good enough.
I think Nabokov either stays in San Jose or goes to Washington. The Caps have the cap space to throw the cash at him.



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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
There was a reason why Roloson played over Biron on one of the bad teams in the league.
and there was a reason why Biron played over Niittymaki, who more then 1 person on this board thought was a great goalie.

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I'd still go for Turco over Biron anyday...
meh I am not really crazy about Turco. Hes on the downside of his career.

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05-07-2010, 01:12 PM
  #114
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meh I am not really crazy about Turco. Hes on the downside of his career.
I agree. I prefer Ellis.

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05-07-2010, 01:18 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I have no idea when he fired his agent exactly (I seem to recall it happening after we signed Emery, but perhaps it was before when negotiations fell apart). However, I also think Holmgren had made the decision to go after Emery during the season and signing Biron was never something he was particularly interested in doing. Once he had a deal in place with Emery (well before free agency), there was no reason to bother with Biron...as he (understandably) wanted to be a starter, and the writing was on the wall here with Emery.
Yeah, that's correct. The announcement to sign Emery was early June and I believe Holmgren mentioned Biron firing his agent in the pre-draft press conference which was late in June. I don't think Holmgren ever intended on re-signing Biron and Nitty.

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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
Really? I had the distinct impression that most of this board believed he let in too many back breaking goals and were happy to see him go.

I always felt like I was in the minority when I defended Marty.
Yeah, I don't think too many wanted him back. I was indifferent. I wanted an upgrade, but the market was weak so I felt like the best option was probably re-signing him at the same salary was making last year.

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05-07-2010, 01:35 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
Yeah, that's correct. The announcement to sign Emery was early June and I believe Holmgren mentioned Biron firing his agent in the pre-draft press conference which was late in June. I don't think Holmgren ever intended on re-signing Biron and Nitty.
There were also rumors linking us to Emery throughout the spring popping up... so it wasn't exactly a bombshell when it did get announced.

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05-07-2010, 01:35 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
We're talking minor tweaks here, not massive changes.

That being said, the real reason we need to maybe not give Reese that much credit is:

1) Our goaltending wasn't that bad the last couple of years guys... somehow this meme has developed that we were getting crappy goaltending/coaching at the position, it's just not true. Biron and Nitty were quite good the last couple of years.

2) Reese was the goalie coach for TB, where they were getting the WORST goaltending in the league under him after Khabi left. Why couldn't he get even average out of the Bolts if he's such a goalie coach genius?
Was he getting the worst goal tending in terms of results (svpct., gaa), or actual performance? Aside from that there is the issue of who were the goalies he was working with?

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05-07-2010, 01:57 PM
  #118
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Was he getting the worst goal tending in terms of results (svpct., gaa), or actual performance? Aside from that there is the issue of who were the goalies he was working with?
Ah, you would have to explain to me what the difference between "results" and "actual performance" is. It's not like you get judged for aesthetic quality.

And, no, the goalies in TB were not that great during that run after Khabi...but if Reese was so great that he can fix Leighton (who was terrible before coming here), certainly he could have at least managed competence? The goaltending in TB was just plain awful down there under him.

Post-lockout numbers:

26th .887 SVPCT
30th .884 SVPCT
30th .885 SVPCT
23rd .900 SVPCT (I'm not sure if he was there for this season.)

That's beyond terrible. In contrast the Flyers, under Lemelin, have gotten a lot out of a random assortment of guys over the years. Some of whom had serious technical flaws, like Cechmanek (who enjoyed demonstrably more success here than elsewhere), Esche, and the Biron/Nitty tandem did quite well.

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05-07-2010, 02:04 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I totally agree. The guy was a good goaltender. He just got screwed up in the head with his contract demands and paid the price. I never hated Biron, yeah I probably got on him when he **** the bed, but overall I thought he did all he could here.



because people claimed that he sucked, and that is a lie. He was one of the main reasons we got to the ECF 2 years ago and was the only reason we didnt get swept last year.



Biron would have been good behind this defense if we would have kept him. a .915 save percentage on this team would have been good enough.
I think Nabokov either stays in San Jose or goes to Washington. The Caps have the cap space to throw the cash at him.





and there was a reason why Biron played over Niittymaki, who more then 1 person on this board thought was a great goalie.



meh I am not really crazy about Turco. Hes on the downside of his career.
And why there were constant goalie troubles when Nitty went on the hot streak and Biron was the odd guy out.

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05-07-2010, 02:06 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
And why there were constant goalie troubles when Nitty went on the hot streak and Biron was the odd guy out.
...because Stevens was an effing moron at managing his goalies and always played them into a goalie controversy.

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05-07-2010, 02:11 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
And why there were constant goalie troubles when Nitty went on the hot streak and Biron was the odd guy out.
Niittymaki is alot like Boucher. he can be very good or he can be very bad.
I never said Biron was anything special.
Just couldnt understand the hard on people have/had for Niittymaki.

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...because Stevens was an effing moron at managing his goalies and always played them into a goalie controversy.
here comes JXC into the conversation

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05-07-2010, 02:16 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, you would have to explain to me what the difference between "results" and "actual performance" is. It's not like you get judged for aesthetic quality.

And, no, the goalies in TB were not that great during that run after Khabi...but if Reese was so great that he can fix Leighton (who was terrible before coming here), certainly he could have at least managed competence? The goaltending in TB was just plain awful down there under him.

Post-lockout numbers:

26th .887 SVPCT
30th .884 SVPCT
30th .885 SVPCT
23rd .900 SVPCT (I'm not sure if he was there for this season.)

That's beyond terrible. In contrast the Flyers, under Lemelin, have gotten a lot out of a random assortment of guys over the years. Some of whom had serious technical flaws, like Cechmanek (who enjoyed demonstrably more success here than elsewhere), Esche, and the Biron/Nitty tandem did quite well.
There isn't one really, that was a poorly worded question. I guess you could say I was comparing "results" (as measured by the typical metrics), to how well the goalie was actually playing. With stats that bad, it's hard to think that the goalie wasn't deserving of his share of blame though.

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against any of your points (I agree that Reese might be receiving a bit too much of the credit for Leighton's success). I'm just saying that while it's not fair to credit him entirely for Leighton's success, his performance as a coach in TB might not be accurately reflected by one or two of stats that are really dependent in part on the performance of the entire team anyway.

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05-07-2010, 02:26 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
There isn't one really, that was a poorly worded question. I guess you could say I was comparing "results" (as measured by the typical metrics), to how well the goalie was actually playing. With stats that bad, it's hard to think that the goalie wasn't deserving of his share of blame though.

I'm not trying to make an argument for or against any of your points (I agree that Reese might be receiving a bit too much of the credit for Leighton's success). I'm just saying that while it's not fair to credit him entirely for Leighton's success, his performance as a coach in TB might not be accurately reflected by one or two of stats that are really dependent in part on the performance of the entire team anyway.
Well, SVPCT has a lot less to do with the team than GAA does. You can put together a stellar SVPCT on a **** team, but it's pretty much impossible to put up a good GAA on one (look at Bob, for example).

I think the criticism of Lemelin goes too far, and the belief that Reese is some savior goes way too far as well. The goaltending talent in TB was weak, but it ain't like Lemelin had a murderers row of goalies to work with here, yet we consistently got pretty good performances out of them through the regular season. In the playoffs their respective holes have been exposed at times, but, seriously, we reached the ECF with Esche outplaying Brodeur in a series.

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05-07-2010, 04:10 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, you would have to explain to me what the difference between "results" and "actual performance" is. It's not like you get judged for aesthetic quality.

And, no, the goalies in TB were not that great during that run after Khabi...but if Reese was so great that he can fix Leighton (who was terrible before coming here), certainly he could have at least managed competence? The goaltending in TB was just plain awful down there under him.

Post-lockout numbers:

26th .887 SVPCT
30th .884 SVPCT
30th .885 SVPCT
23rd .900 SVPCT (I'm not sure if he was there for this season.)

That's beyond terrible. In contrast the Flyers, under Lemelin, have gotten a lot out of a random assortment of guys over the years. Some of whom had serious technical flaws, like Cechmanek (who enjoyed demonstrably more success here than elsewhere), Esche, and the Biron/Nitty tandem did quite well.
Good post. I think it's far too early to give Reese all of the credit. Lemelin also had a lot initial success with his goalies.

Reese's success with Leighton was impressive, but who knows if that was actually sustainable. His PK SV% number was well above the league average while his EV SV% was below the league average and in line with his career numbers. PK SV% tends to vary greatly from year to year so it's likely his would regress towards the league average over a large sample and his stats would plummet. He wasn't very good before he got injured. IMO he is a total fluke.

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05-07-2010, 07:15 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, SVPCT has a lot less to do with the team than GAA does. You can put together a stellar SVPCT on a **** team, but it's pretty much impossible to put up a good GAA on one (look at Bob, for example).

I think the criticism of Lemelin goes too far, and the belief that Reese is some savior goes way too far as well. The goaltending talent in TB was weak, but it ain't like Lemelin had a murderers row of goalies to work with here, yet we consistently got pretty good performances out of them through the regular season. In the playoffs their respective holes have been exposed at times, but, seriously, we reached the ECF with Esche outplaying Brodeur in a series.
Quality of shots against will work wonders to diminish a goalie's save percentage. There is an obvious inverse relationship with that and the quality of your team. The differences in our perspectives and where this conversation goes is probably academic from here. Suffice to say, I think his team's play is a large component of how a goalie arrives at his svpct., though obviously not as large as the goalie himself. Also, 89.5% over the course of a season means your goalie and your team are both stinking, so I think your point is probably valid here.

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