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Which Big Salaried Forward Goes?

View Poll Results: If One of them has to go, who would you like it to be?
Dany Heatley, 28, $7.5 cap hit for 4 more years 11 7.64%
Joe Thornton, 29, $7.2 cap hit for 1 more year 3 2.08%
Patrick Marleau, 29, impending UFA 95 65.97%
Ryane Clowe, 26, $3.625 cap hit for 3 more years 3 2.08%
Joe Pavelski, 24, impending RFA 2 1.39%
Devin Setoguchi, 22, impending RFA 7 4.86%
None, go with the bottom of the barrell in goal and on the blueline 23 15.97%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-05-2010, 09:59 PM
  #151
Pinkfloyd
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Originally Posted by dburdick View Post
Pink, Murray was the replacement for Hannan (defensive/stay-at-home D-man). Ehroff is not a comparable. Murray is way better than Hannan in all facets of the game except skating and he's making $2.5m compared to Hannan's $4.5m. Plus, Murray is improving every year and he's one of the most physically dominating d-men in the league. He's a legit Top 4 as much as Hannan and Reghr are and offers far greater value.

With Marleau and Nabby off the books, the Sharks will have ample room to give raises to Pavs, Seto and Malhotra -- and a find a quality Top 4 d-man to replace Blake.
When I say he replaced Ehrhoff, I mean in terms of position with regards to ice time. They attempted to replace Ehrhoff's minutes by giving them to Murray. Not in terms of play style. I like to think Murray in the context of play style replaced Kyle McLaren. A solid defensive defenseman that can be an intimidating bruiser.

I disagree with your take on Murray. This year, he did not improve. He's still the same player that he was last year with the same pros and cons that he was last year. The difference is that he's gotten to play with better teammates and played against better opponents and an expanded workload. One of the cons to Douglas Murray has been his endurance and it's shown that the more he plays, the quality of his shifts deteriorates.

He's not a true #4 as much as I love and enjoy the way he plays. He simply doesn't play at that level consistently enough for me to give him that nod. He's not a true #5 either because he's better than that. I won't mind keeping Murray another year to see if he takes another step forward as it could just be him needing a season to adjust to the workload increase. But he in no way compares to Scott Hannan or Robyn Regehr. Those guys have proven their endurance and quality of play over time. Murray hasn't done so.

As for the rest, I fully disagree with letting Marleau go in any way, shape, or form. I do not want this team to play his team six times a year. We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that. I think people are going a little overboard with the whole Pavelski and Setoguchi playoffs thing and how that affects negotiations as an RFA to accurately gauge where this team will be at with regards to the cap. Neither player will field an offer sheet and I doubt DW gives them the opportunity to anyway.

However, if the best case scenario happens in these playoffs, I can easily see this team following the footsteps of Tampa who let Khabibulin after their Cup run. However, the big difference there is then the Bulin Wall was 32 going into the next season where Nabby will be 35. I also think that if the best case playoff scenario happens, players will be a lot more willing to make sacrifices to keep as much of the team together as possible. It is plausible to see Nabokov sign a one year discounted deal so that next year he can re-sign with bonuses being over 35. It is also plausible that Patrick Marleau would take a long term deal at a lower cap hit for a few years of an NTC and a much better chance of him retiring as a Shark. If Marleau plays better and contributes more as the playoffs wear on, it's going to be difficult to let him go if they win the Cup, he's their leading goal scorer for the season, and helped in the later rounds contribute to it all.

The point is, who knows really because we don't know the results and how it will affect negotiations. I wouldn't exactly hand Pavelski a 5 mil contract because he's scored 9 goals so far. It's not over yet and if the whole team collapses to the Wings or goes down in the conference finals without any sort of production from the 2nd line, what does it all really mean? There's still a lot of factors left going on right now that will determine the futures of the whole team. It's way too early to tell.

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Old
05-05-2010, 11:39 PM
  #152
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id let Marleau walk.

Setoguchi, Pavelski, and Clowe need to stay. I'd take Clowe/Setoguchi/Pavelski and Murray over Marleau and Moore any day of the week.

If we need to clear more let Nabby walk.

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Old
05-06-2010, 09:42 AM
  #153
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humble flyers fan coming in peace...

if you guys let nabby walk, what sort of contract would he command on the FA market? 4 mil? 5+ mil?

or, is there any reasonable package the flyers could do to get his rights?

you guys could potentially retain most/all of the valuable forwards if you let nabby go and sign a guy like biron, who could rack up wins playing with your talented d and scoring. biron has also shown flashes of playoff and late-season brilliance.

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05-06-2010, 09:56 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by ivanchu02 View Post
We can fit all the forwards if we let Nabby and Blake go.
Marleau $6 mil, Pavelski $4 mil, Setoguchi $3 mil, Malhotra $1.5 mil

This leaves us with another $2.9 mil in cap room to either upgrade Leach or Joslin who ever is the 6th defenseman or Stalock to another goalie maybe Nabby if he's willing to play for $3.5-4 mil. I'd really like to see if Doherty is any good, he's big and mean.

I think we would make the playoffs with this lineup, then the following year hopefully Thornton will take a paycut of about a million and be in the $6 mil range.

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 21; PAYROLL: $54.627m; CAP ROOM: $2.953m BONUSES: $0.780m

AUTO-GENERATED CAPGEEK.COM LINES
FORWARDS
Dany Heatley ($7.500m) / Joe Thornton ($7.200m) / * Patrick Marleau ($6.000m)
* Joe Pavelski ($4.000m) / Ryane Clowe ($3.625m) / * Devin Setoguchi ($3.000m)
* Manny Malhotra ($1.500m) / Torrey Mitchell ($1.367m) / Logan Couture ($1.242m)
Jamie McGinn ($0.997m) / * Scott Nichol ($0.750m) / * Jed Ortmeyer ($0.550m)
* Brad Staubitz ($0.500m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($3.100m)
Douglas Murray ($2.500m) / Kent Huskins ($1.700m)
Jason Demers ($0.543m) / * Jay Leach ($0.487m)
GOALTENDERS
Alex Stalock ($0.850m) / Thomas Greiss ($0.550m)
I like this. I'm not sold on Marleau staying though, because he continually frustrates me and then goes out and scores a game winner like on Tuesday. Therefore, offer Marleau 5 million a year (anyone playing next to Jumbo is going to get 30+ goals a year) if he chooses to walk, so be it trade his rights for a 2nd rounder. Let Manny walk (he's going to want more dough anyway). Take that 2.5 and add it to 2.5 of space remaing and keep Nabby at 5 million a year also. After that let DW and TM fill in the other spots with the likes of Zalewski, Feriero, mcLaren, Joslin, Petrecki, etc.

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Old
05-06-2010, 10:12 AM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
When I say he replaced Ehrhoff, I mean in terms of position with regards to ice time. They attempted to replace Ehrhoff's minutes by giving them to Murray. Not in terms of play style. I like to think Murray in the context of play style replaced Kyle McLaren. A solid defensive defenseman that can be an intimidating bruiser.

I disagree with your take on Murray. This year, he did not improve. He's still the same player that he was last year with the same pros and cons that he was last year. The difference is that he's gotten to play with better teammates and played against better opponents and an expanded workload. One of the cons to Douglas Murray has been his endurance and it's shown that the more he plays, the quality of his shifts deteriorates.

He's not a true #4 as much as I love and enjoy the way he plays. He simply doesn't play at that level consistently enough for me to give him that nod. He's not a true #5 either because he's better than that. I won't mind keeping Murray another year to see if he takes another step forward as it could just be him needing a season to adjust to the workload increase. But he in no way compares to Scott Hannan or Robyn Regehr. Those guys have proven their endurance and quality of play over time. Murray hasn't done so.

As for the rest, I fully disagree with letting Marleau go in any way, shape, or form. I do not want this team to play his team six times a year. We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that. I think people are going a little overboard with the whole Pavelski and Setoguchi playoffs thing and how that affects negotiations as an RFA to accurately gauge where this team will be at with regards to the cap. Neither player will field an offer sheet and I doubt DW gives them the opportunity to anyway.

However, if the best case scenario happens in these playoffs, I can easily see this team following the footsteps of Tampa who let Khabibulin after their Cup run. However, the big difference there is then the Bulin Wall was 32 going into the next season where Nabby will be 35. I also think that if the best case playoff scenario happens, players will be a lot more willing to make sacrifices to keep as much of the team together as possible. It is plausible to see Nabokov sign a one year discounted deal so that next year he can re-sign with bonuses being over 35. It is also plausible that Patrick Marleau would take a long term deal at a lower cap hit for a few years of an NTC and a much better chance of him retiring as a Shark. If Marleau plays better and contributes more as the playoffs wear on, it's going to be difficult to let him go if they win the Cup, he's their leading goal scorer for the season, and helped in the later rounds contribute to it all.

The point is, who knows really because we don't know the results and how it will affect negotiations. I wouldn't exactly hand Pavelski a 5 mil contract because he's scored 9 goals so far. It's not over yet and if the whole team collapses to the Wings or goes down in the conference finals without any sort of production from the 2nd line, what does it all really mean? There's still a lot of factors left going on right now that will determine the futures of the whole team. It's way too early to tell.
my god, that was a good post. thank you.

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Old
05-06-2010, 11:43 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Gilligans Island View Post
Michalek is a UFA. Trading Heatley wouldn't land him directly. Doubt the Hawks would ever deal Seabrook to us even if they could take on Heater's cap hit. So, what other #2 Dman do you think we could trade Heatley for? That team has to have interest and cap space...

Not re-signing Patty (and Nabby) would allow us to sign a UFA dman for up to $5m. Plenty to land Michalek if we want to. Not saying we should b/c we'd likely really over pay. I'd be more inclined to go for a lower-profile yet still top 4 dman like Lydman, Tallinder, Seidenberg, or even Kubina.
Toronto - Kaberle
Edmonton - Whitney
Columbus - Tyutin

Less Likely Options
Vancouver - Edler/Ehrhoff
Nashville - Suter
Minnesota - Shultz

Trading Heatley frees up the cap room to sign Michalek (or a similar ilk defenseman), letting Marleau walk doesn't, unless you let Nabby go too. Plus, you can get a return for Heatley, whether it be prospects, a cheaper top-6 forward, or the aformentioned d-men. Yes, there are probably cheaper options than Nabokov, but in my mind you stick with the player who has been a stalwart in goal for the team for over a decade. Too many of the cheap goalies in the league have a wonderful ability to flame out after 1 or 2 good seasons, and bringing in one of them brings a higher risk than sticking with Nabby.

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Old
05-06-2010, 12:04 PM
  #157
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Dany Heatley will not be traded.

Wise up people. He just got here and Wilson gave up a lot to get him.

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Old
05-06-2010, 12:47 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
When I say he replaced Ehrhoff, I mean in terms of position with regards to ice time. They attempted to replace Ehrhoff's minutes by giving them to Murray. Not in terms of play style. I like to think Murray in the context of play style replaced Kyle McLaren. A solid defensive defenseman that can be an intimidating bruiser.

I disagree with your take on Murray. This year, he did not improve. He's still the same player that he was last year with the same pros and cons that he was last year. The difference is that he's gotten to play with better teammates and played against better opponents and an expanded workload. One of the cons to Douglas Murray has been his endurance and it's shown that the more he plays, the quality of his shifts deteriorates.

He's not a true #4 as much as I love and enjoy the way he plays. He simply doesn't play at that level consistently enough for me to give him that nod. He's not a true #5 either because he's better than that. I won't mind keeping Murray another year to see if he takes another step forward as it could just be him needing a season to adjust to the workload increase. But he in no way compares to Scott Hannan or Robyn Regehr. Those guys have proven their endurance and quality of play over time. Murray hasn't done so.

As for the rest, I fully disagree with letting Marleau go in any way, shape, or form. I do not want this team to play his team six times a year. We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that. I think people are going a little overboard with the whole Pavelski and Setoguchi playoffs thing and how that affects negotiations as an RFA to accurately gauge where this team will be at with regards to the cap. Neither player will field an offer sheet and I doubt DW gives them the opportunity to anyway.

However, if the best case scenario happens in these playoffs, I can easily see this team following the footsteps of Tampa who let Khabibulin after their Cup run. However, the big difference there is then the Bulin Wall was 32 going into the next season where Nabby will be 35. I also think that if the best case playoff scenario happens, players will be a lot more willing to make sacrifices to keep as much of the team together as possible. It is plausible to see Nabokov sign a one year discounted deal so that next year he can re-sign with bonuses being over 35. It is also plausible that Patrick Marleau would take a long term deal at a lower cap hit for a few years of an NTC and a much better chance of him retiring as a Shark. If Marleau plays better and contributes more as the playoffs wear on, it's going to be difficult to let him go if they win the Cup, he's their leading goal scorer for the season, and helped in the later rounds contribute to it all.

The point is, who knows really because we don't know the results and how it will affect negotiations. I wouldn't exactly hand Pavelski a 5 mil contract because he's scored 9 goals so far. It's not over yet and if the whole team collapses to the Wings or goes down in the conference finals without any sort of production from the 2nd line, what does it all really mean? There's still a lot of factors left going on right now that will determine the futures of the whole team. It's way too early to tell.
Exactly.

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Old
05-06-2010, 01:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I disagree with your take on Murray. This year, he did not improve. He's still the same player that he was last year with the same pros and cons that he was last year. The difference is that he's gotten to play with better teammates and played against better opponents and an expanded workload. One of the cons to Douglas Murray has been his endurance and it's shown that the more he plays, the quality of his shifts deteriorates.

He's not a true #4 as much as I love and enjoy the way he plays. He simply doesn't play at that level consistently enough for me to give him that nod. He's not a true #5 either because he's better than that. I won't mind keeping Murray another year to see if he takes another step forward as it could just be him needing a season to adjust to the workload increase. But he in no way compares to Scott Hannan or Robyn Regehr. Those guys have proven their endurance and quality of play over time. Murray hasn't done so.
Murray didn't improve? Just about every facet of his game improved IMO. His minutes went from 16 to 20 per game. His skating has improved. His offensive game while not remarkable, has improved. He's now playing against the top line players every night and has done an outstanding job, particularly against some of the bigger power forwards. Yes, he has the odd brain cramp now and then like every d-man, but overall he's a very solid top 4 stay-at-home, physical D-man.

There isn't a GM in the league that would take Hannan over Murray. Hannan had a nice bounce-back year after two dismal years, but he is still a huge liability anytime he's handling the puck. Regehr is unquestionably a better D-man than Murray because of his outstanding skating ability, but the delta in overall play between Murray and Regehr is not that great.

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Old
05-06-2010, 01:07 PM
  #160
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As for the rest, I fully disagree with letting Marleau go in any way, shape, or form. I do not want this team to play his team six times a year. We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that. I think people are going a little overboard with the whole Pavelski and Setoguchi playoffs thing and how that affects negotiations as an RFA to accurately gauge where this team will be at with regards to the cap. Neither player will field an offer sheet and I doubt DW gives them the opportunity to anyway.
No, what would be dumb is to give him $5.5+ million a year just so we dont have to play against him 6 times a year. The guy is seemingly barely motivated during a cup run of his contract year, how motivated is he going to be once signing his ~6 year deal?

He is only going to get more inconsistent as his career progresses. Other than the tap in goal he had, last game was awful. So dont tell me he is doing all the little things that don't show up in the score sheet. If he takes a 50% home town discount sure, but obviously he wont do that and shouldn't, so let him walk. It is always better to let a guy leave a year too early than a year too late.

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05-06-2010, 01:24 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
I fully disagree with letting Marleau go in any way, shape, or form. I do not want this team to play his team six times a year. We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that. I think people are going a little overboard with the whole Pavelski and Setoguchi playoffs thing and how that affects negotiations as an RFA to accurately gauge where this team will be at with regards to the cap. Neither player will field an offer sheet and I doubt DW gives them the opportunity to anyway.
Really? The words motivation and Marleau are not something that I think fit together very well. If the SC playoffs can't motivate him to elevate his game, what makes you think Marleau would perform any better by playing against the Sharks? Sarcasm aside, I don't really think the threat of having Marleau play against the Sharks 6 times a year is much of an argument for keeping him. It just comes down to simple economics -- re-signing Marleau would almost certainly mean the loss of Pavelski or Seto. Pavelski's agent will be looking for a substantial deal and he can certainly get something in the 4.5 to 5M range from another team to force DW's hand.

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Old
05-06-2010, 01:27 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Douggernaut View Post
Funny, I believe both Marleau and Thornton were doing fine before Heatley got here. The emergence of a very very solid second line means teams can't focus on those 2 (see Detroit shifting Datsyuk's line to defend Pavelski) and I see big things for Couture next season. The real reason to drop Heatley is to get a very solid number 2 defenseman like Michalek or Seabrook. Keeping Heatley and dropping Marleau means we'll have $3 million or less for a new d-man. To get a solid replacement for Blake, we'll need more than that.

Assuming Marleau will resign for $5.5, dropping Heater frees up money to make upgrades in other places. And you're exact same argument can be made for losing Marleau. He's the guy with speed on that line, pushing the D back, first into corners on dump-ins, "someone who takes away defenders to look after him". Plus, Marleau is a staple of our penalty kill and regularly plays more minutes than any other forward Who do you propose we replace Marleau with?
funny, detroit is putting out there 2nd best defensive forward out against pavs and his line, and the best on the team against thornton. hmmm funny.

just to put that point into more perspective, zetterberg is the one who lines up againt crosby, zetterberg lines up against getzlaf, zetterberg is the one who lines up against every single top line player in the league. not datzyuk

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05-06-2010, 02:52 PM
  #163
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Off topic, but Douglas Murray has improved, OB1 has taught him well, but he still isn't a number 4 defenseman yet........

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05-06-2010, 03:15 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by dburdick View Post
Murray didn't improve? Just about every facet of his game improved IMO. His minutes went from 16 to 20 per game. His skating has improved. His offensive game while not remarkable, has improved. He's now playing against the top line players every night and has done an outstanding job, particularly against some of the bigger power forwards. Yes, he has the odd brain cramp now and then like every d-man, but overall he's a very solid top 4 stay-at-home, physical D-man.

There isn't a GM in the league that would take Hannan over Murray. Hannan had a nice bounce-back year after two dismal years, but he is still a huge liability anytime he's handling the puck. Regehr is unquestionably a better D-man than Murray because of his outstanding skating ability, but the delta in overall play between Murray and Regehr is not that great.
Like I said, I disagree. I listed out as to why. I believe he's the same player he was last year and nobody's really given me any reason to think otherwise. Last year, he was great against power forwards too. That didn't all of a sudden get into his game this year. He's been that way.

There isn't a GM that would take Hannan over Murray because of the contract. Not because of the players themselves. Hannan is still a much better defenseman than Murray but 2 million better? Probably not. 4.5 mil is what you pay a defenseman that is either exceptional at something or will contribute to the team in many different ways. Neither Hannan nor Murray are at that level. Hannan's contract is a common GM mistake that is made to overcompensate for something that is lacking on a team's blue line. The same argument can be made when comparing Murray to Regehr.

If I could get either Regehr or Hannan at 3 mil rather than Murray at 2.5 mil, it'd be done in a heartbeat. Murray's positive is that his contract is either easy to move if he sucks or a good deal if he's playing to expectations or better. I don't think he's hit the expectations the team laid out for him this year but I don't think he sucks or is that far off from it.

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Originally Posted by booost View Post
No, what would be dumb is to give him $5.5+ million a year just so we dont have to play against him 6 times a year. The guy is seemingly barely motivated during a cup run of his contract year, how motivated is he going to be once signing his ~6 year deal?

He is only going to get more inconsistent as his career progresses. Other than the tap in goal he had, last game was awful. So dont tell me he is doing all the little things that don't show up in the score sheet. If he takes a 50% home town discount sure, but obviously he wont do that and shouldn't, so let him walk. It is always better to let a guy leave a year too early than a year too late.
The old motivation cliche. This isn't about motivation. This is about production offensively in the playoffs. His numbers are down and fans are disappointed and thus feel justified in laying into him and wanting him gone. Is it a legitimate concern when spending that kind of money? Absolutely. Is it the only thing he should be judged by? Absolutely not. Forwards don't play as much in a game as Marleau if he wasn't contributing or if his contribution was equal to that of a plugger.

The argument over being more inconsistent as the years go by is ridiculous. He's 30. He's not 35. He's going to be productive until that age just like Mike Modano was. Goal scorers by nature are inconsistent. There are very few exceptions in this regard. Nobody seems to be getting on Dany Heatley for having one goal in these playoffs. He gets a free pass yet Marleau who does much more for this team gets this kind of stuff like he isn't an integral part of the team or that he's replaceable.

Your words are about leaving a player about 5 years too early. Not one year. Dumping a speedy guy who is one of the top 15 two-way forwards in this league in his prime is not smart in the slightest regardless of his offensive numbers in the playoffs.

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Really? The words motivation and Marleau are not something that I think fit together very well. If the SC playoffs can't motivate him to elevate his game, what makes you think Marleau would perform any better by playing against the Sharks? Sarcasm aside, I don't really think the threat of having Marleau play against the Sharks 6 times a year is much of an argument for keeping him. It just comes down to simple economics -- re-signing Marleau would almost certainly mean the loss of Pavelski or Seto. Pavelski's agent will be looking for a substantial deal and he can certainly get something in the 4.5 to 5M range from another team to force DW's hand.
I'm done with the whole motivation argument. It's a senseless argument that nobody can prove either way and it simply is a way to try and add to what the real issue is and that is offensive production. It doesn't matter that Marleau led the team in hits in game three or was the top forward in hits in game two. People still have this chip on their shoulder because they believe he's not playing to what he's capable of or not producing what he should.

As for the whole economics argument, it's a load of crap. I've shown time and time again that Pavs, Seto, and Marleau can all be re-signed. Even if Pavs got something stupid like 4.5-5 mil which he won't get, imo, they have many other avenues in which to keep all three if they want. And they better do what it takes to keep all three if they expect to remain contenders for the foreseeable future because dumping Marleau and Nabokov in the same off-season is a good way to damn that very thing.

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05-06-2010, 03:29 PM
  #165
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The old motivation cliche. This isn't about motivation. This is about production offensively in the playoffs.
If it is not about motivation then why did you bring it up to begin with?

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
We know what a motivated Marleau is capable of and it would be dumb to let him walk to a team to do just that.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
His numbers are down and fans are disappointed and thus feel justified in laying into him and wanting him gone. Is it a legitimate concern when spending that kind of money? Absolutely. Is it the only thing he should be judged by? Absolutely not. Forwards don't play as much in a game as Marleau if he wasn't contributing or if his contribution was equal to that of a plugger.
Wingers dont deserve $5 million a year for doing all the small things, which i dont believe he is doing either. He looked lost for much of the last game.

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The argument over being more inconsistent as the years go by is ridiculous. He's 30. He's not 35. He's going to be productive until that age just like Mike Modano was. Goal scorers by nature are inconsistent. There are very few exceptions in this regard. Nobody seems to be getting on Dany Heatley for having one goal in these playoffs. He gets a free pass yet Marleau who does much more for this team gets this kind of stuff like he isn't an integral part of the team or that he's replaceable.
I dont think its as ridiculous as signing someone for $5 million because you dont want to face them 6 times a year. His skills are only going to erode from here on in, step slower out there, reaction times diminishing, in lieu of that its obvious he will become even more inconsistent, unless you count consistent as consistently mediocre. He wants to play in anonymity and show up when it matters least. Not the type of player this team needs.

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05-06-2010, 05:35 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
There isn't a GM that would take Hannan over Murray because of the contract. Not because of the players themselves. Hannan is still a much better defenseman than Murray but 2 million better? Probably not. ....
If I could get either Regehr or Hannan at 3 mil rather than Murray at 2.5 mil, it'd be done in a heartbeat. Murray's positive is that his contract is either easy to move if he sucks or a good deal if he's playing to expectations or better. I don't think he's hit the expectations the team laid out for him this year but I don't think he sucks or is that far off from it.
Pink, I don't want to hijack this thread with discussions about Murray, but I'm curious to know why you believe "Hannan is a much better defenseman than Murray".
The case can't be made for one over the other statistically as their stats are very similar with Murray having more hits (233 to 67) and Hannan having more blocks (144 to 99). The rest of their stats are nearly identical. Murray is clearly more of an intimidating physical presence than Hannan which is why I would take Murray over Hannan. But I'm still curious to understand your take on this.

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05-06-2010, 08:44 PM
  #167
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If it is not about motivation then why did you bring it up to begin with?






Wingers dont deserve $5 million a year for doing all the small things, which i dont believe he is doing either. He looked lost for much of the last game.



I dont think its as ridiculous as signing someone for $5 million because you dont want to face them 6 times a year. His skills are only going to erode from here on in, step slower out there, reaction times diminishing, in lieu of that its obvious he will become even more inconsistent, unless you count consistent as consistently mediocre. He wants to play in anonymity and show up when it matters least. Not the type of player this team needs.
Easy, because the context in which people use motivation to criticize Marleau is not the same context in which I am using it. People misconstrue his lack of production as a lack of motivation or the lack of results as the same. In my opinion, when most people bring that aspect of it up, they don't use it properly. There are definitely times when he hasn't been motivated during the season but in the playoffs I don't see it that way.

So I guess Jordan Staal doesn't deserve 4 mil because that's pretty much what he does and he's not nearly the goal scorer that Marleau is. Everyone knows goal scoring in the playoffs is at a premium and that goal scorers are inconsistent by nature yet people refuse to let that go and continue to criticize Marleau for it but not Heatley.

But again, this lunacy that his skills will erode at 30 just shows the ridiculous level of criticism that has constantly followed Marleau since the lockout from these boards. It's absolute nonsense that that is the argument against re-signing him. He's 30 and he's got 5 more good or great years in him but you laughably believe it will start happening now? Hilarious.

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Originally Posted by dburdick View Post
Pink, I don't want to hijack this thread with discussions about Murray, but I'm curious to know why you believe "Hannan is a much better defenseman than Murray".
The case can't be made for one over the other statistically as their stats are very similar with Murray having more hits (233 to 67) and Hannan having more blocks (144 to 99). The rest of their stats are nearly identical. Murray is clearly more of an intimidating physical presence than Hannan which is why I would take Murray over Hannan. But I'm still curious to understand your take on this.
Hannan deserves the benefit of the doubt until Murray proves otherwise. Hannan has been playing against the best players around the league for years. Murray has done it for one year. Hannan is a much better defensive defenseman than Murray. Hannan doesn't have near the amount of defensive lapses in coverage that Murray does and that, to me, is more important than physical presence or even blocked shots.

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05-06-2010, 09:01 PM
  #168
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funny, detroit is putting out there 2nd best defensive forward out against pavs and his line, and the best on the team against thornton. hmmm funny.

just to put that point into more perspective, zetterberg is the one who lines up againt crosby, zetterberg lines up against getzlaf, zetterberg is the one who lines up against every single top line player in the league. not datzyuk
2 straight Selke trophies would beg to differ at who's the better defensive forward.

And even if those matchups are true, I haven't watched enough Detroit games to know, the Zetterberg lining up against Pavelski in the first 2 games proves the same point. Except Pavelski's line was working Z's in the first 2 games, and didn't fair as well against Datsyuk.

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Dany Heatley will not be traded.

Wise up people. He just got here and Wilson gave up a lot to get him.
He didn't really give up a lot. A very overpriced Cheechoo and an injury-prone Michalek, the cap hits nearly balanced out, so any other moves made that off season weren't Wilson giving up anything else to get him.

I don't think Heatley gets traded in any case, mostly because the rumors of him not having a NTC have never been substantiated. But given the choice between Marleau at a $5.5-6 cap hit and Heatley at a $7.5, I'd take Marleau every time.

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05-06-2010, 09:22 PM
  #169
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Easy, because the context in which people use motivation to criticize Marleau is not the same context in which I am using it. People misconstrue his lack of production as a lack of motivation or the lack of results as the same. In my opinion, when most people bring that aspect of it up, they don't use it properly. There are definitely times when he hasn't been motivated during the season but in the playoffs I don't see it that way.

So I guess Jordan Staal doesn't deserve 4 mil because that's pretty much what he does and he's not nearly the goal scorer that Marleau is. Everyone knows goal scoring in the playoffs is at a premium and that goal scorers are inconsistent by nature yet people refuse to let that go and continue to criticize Marleau for it but not Heatley.

But again, this lunacy that his skills will erode at 30 just shows the ridiculous level of criticism that has constantly followed Marleau since the lockout from these boards. It's absolute nonsense that that is the argument against re-signing him. He's 30 and he's got 5 more good or great years in him but you laughably believe it will start happening now? Hilarious.



Hannan deserves the benefit of the doubt until Murray proves otherwise. Hannan has been playing against the best players around the league for years. Murray has done it for one year. Hannan is a much better defensive defenseman than Murray. Hannan doesn't have near the amount of defensive lapses in coverage that Murray does and that, to me, is more important than physical presence or even blocked shots.


Your the only one using the word "motivated" right.

Doug's stat's and play this year and results don't matter cause you have determined Hannan plays better.

The only 2 media outlets to even comment on the Heatley NMC say it's not in effect in it's original form and "it hasn't be substantiated" because DW hasn't said it.

Your on a roll tonight

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05-06-2010, 09:51 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Your the only one using the word "motivated" right.

Doug's stat's and play this year and results don't matter cause you have determined Hannan plays better.

The only 2 media outlets to even comment on the Heatley NMC say it's not in effect in it's original form and "it hasn't be substantiated" because DW hasn't said it.

Your on a roll tonight
Yes to motivated. No to Hannan/Murray. As for Heatley, just because a couple people say something doesn't make it true. Until it's proven otherwise and not just speculation, the way the CBA works has Heatley with an NMC. It also doesn't have to be DW saying it. It could be Heatley or his agent. I sincerely doubt it's the case because the people in Ottawa would've known about such a clause long before the trade happened and it didn't come out in the slightest.

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05-07-2010, 08:44 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post

So I guess Jordan Staal doesn't deserve 4 mil because that's pretty much what he does and he's not nearly the goal scorer that Marleau is. Everyone knows goal scoring in the playoffs is at a premium and that goal scorers are inconsistent by nature yet people refuse to let that go and continue to criticize Marleau for it but not Heatley.

But again, this lunacy that his skills will erode at 30 just shows the ridiculous level of criticism that has constantly followed Marleau since the lockout from these boards. It's absolute nonsense that that is the argument against re-signing him. He's 30 and he's got 5 more good or great years in him but you laughably believe it will start happening now? Hilarious.


You make some good points about Heatley being just as inconsistent as Marleau, but as far as Jordan Staal goes, he plays 3rd line center checking the other teams #1 line most nights, put him on Thornton's wing and he'd score just as many goals as Marleau.

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05-07-2010, 12:14 PM
  #172
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humble flyers fan coming in peace...

if you guys let nabby walk, what sort of contract would he command on the FA market? 4 mil? 5+ mil?

or, is there any reasonable package the flyers could do to get his rights?

you guys could potentially retain most/all of the valuable forwards if you let nabby go and sign a guy like biron, who could rack up wins playing with your talented d and scoring. biron has also shown flashes of playoff and late-season brilliance.
U guys can have huskins for free

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05-07-2010, 12:53 PM
  #173
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Easy, because the context in which people use motivation to criticize Marleau is not the same context in which I am using it. People misconstrue his lack of production as a lack of motivation or the lack of results as the same. In my opinion, when most people bring that aspect of it up, they don't use it properly. There are definitely times when he hasn't been motivated during the season but in the playoffs I don't see it that way.
ok? i really have no clue what you are talking about, but you admit he can be unmotivated while earning $5+ million as a former captain of the team. Great way to show some leadership there.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
So I guess Jordan Staal doesn't deserve 4 mil because that's pretty much what he does and he's not nearly the goal scorer that Marleau is. Everyone knows goal scoring in the playoffs is at a premium and that goal scorers are inconsistent by nature yet people refuse to let that go and continue to criticize Marleau for it but not Heatley.
Staal is on the 3rd line and plays his role real well. Staal is a much better defensive player than marleau is. Yes you can argue he is slightly overpaid, then again its $4 million not the 5.5+ that Marleau will likely command.

So your excuse for Marleau sucking is, Heatley sucks more? Show some accountability here. Sure Heatley has been bad, but he is locked into his deal and signed for many years. He is not going anywhere like it or not. This is Heatley's first year as well, while we've seen this song and dance from marleau for years.

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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
But again, this lunacy that his skills will erode at 30 just shows the ridiculous level of criticism that has constantly followed Marleau since the lockout from these boards. It's absolute nonsense that that is the argument against re-signing him. He's 30 and he's got 5 more good or great years in him but you laughably believe it will start happening now? Hilarious.
Im not exactly sure why this issue is so hard to grasp. Players skills erode over time, Marleau will likely want a ~5 year deal. Personally id rather not have a 35 year old Marleau earning 6 million a year on my team. If you think he will be earning that paycheck at that age, then we can agree to disagree.

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05-07-2010, 03:18 PM
  #174
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ok? i really have no clue what you are talking about, but you admit he can be unmotivated while earning $5+ million as a former captain of the team. Great way to show some leadership there.



Staal is on the 3rd line and plays his role real well. Staal is a much better defensive player than marleau is. Yes you can argue he is slightly overpaid, then again its $4 million not the 5.5+ that Marleau will likely command.

So your excuse for Marleau sucking is, Heatley sucks more? Show some accountability here. Sure Heatley has been bad, but he is locked into his deal and signed for many years. He is not going anywhere like it or not. This is Heatley's first year as well, while we've seen this song and dance from marleau for years.



Im not exactly sure why this issue is so hard to grasp. Players skills erode over time, Marleau will likely want a ~5 year deal. Personally id rather not have a 35 year old Marleau earning 6 million a year on my team. If you think he will be earning that paycheck at that age, then we can agree to disagree.
You'd be a fool to believe that the beloved Dan Boyle hasn't had times where he has looked unmotivated during the season. It's a reality of pro sports when you have an 82 game season that there will be times where every single player lacks motivation at some point. I don't see anyone questioning his leadership.

Staal is actually a 2nd line center when the lineup is healthy because the Pens would rather allow Crosby and Malkin to play together when it's working. However, thinking that Staal is on the same planet as Marleau in terms of offensive instincts and capabilities is just flat out ridiculous. Staal is respectable but far from elite and he's not getting there anytime soon.

I've been very accountable of Marleau's shortcomings in these playoffs. He's not doing enough offensively in terms of production but I'm not pretending like some people that he's been useless out there. He's been doing a damn fine job on his shifts killing penalties. He's been good as the 3rd man high. He's been using his speed to open up ice for his linemates. He simply is not getting on the board enough and that's a legitimate issue and concern. That reality doesn't make it a deal-breaker for me to let him walk because you don't simply replace 40+ goals from within and you don't replace his speed, offensive instincts, and defensive capabilities period. And the reality with Dany Heatley is that anyone who's watched the playoffs with the Sens involved has seen the same song and dance with regards to him. People still let the newness of Heatley cloud the reality that he's been no better than Marleau numbers-wise and this was said while the rumors were rampant of his potential arrival. But people let him off the hook for doing literally next to nothing out there that has meant anything to this team save for one play. Where's the accountability there?

As for the age thing, it's been shown time and time again that good to elite forwards that keep themselves conditioned properly will remain good to elite til the age of 35. Nothing in Marleau's game or off-season routines signify that his path will differ from anyone else. If anything he'd likely be the exception to last longer than the average. There's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be just as good at 35 that he is now. Nabokov is just as good now as he was when he was 30 and he's had more wear and tear than Marleau even though the latter plays practically every game. Yes his skills will erode but 35 is about when it would START to happen. Not now and not in the next 3 to 4 years. You seem to be hung up on what could possibly be a 35 year old Marleau in the last year of his deal making that amount of money. Personally, I would think the first four years would provide plenty of contributions to make it more than worth it especially if he's getting 5.5 mil per and especially if it allows the team to be kept together for longer.

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05-07-2010, 03:46 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Pinkfloyd View Post
As for the age thing, it's been shown time and time again that good to elite forwards that keep themselves conditioned properly will remain good to elite til the age of 35. Nothing in Marleau's game or off-season routines signify that his path will differ from anyone else. If anything he'd likely be the exception to last longer than the average. There's nothing to suggest that he wouldn't be just as good at 35 that he is now. Nabokov is just as good now as he was when he was 30 and he's had more wear and tear than Marleau even though the latter plays practically every game. Yes his skills will erode but 35 is about when it would START to happen. Not now and not in the next 3 to 4 years. You seem to be hung up on what could possibly be a 35 year old Marleau in the last year of his deal making that amount of money. Personally, I would think the first four years would provide plenty of contributions to make it more than worth it especially if he's getting 5.5 mil per and especially if it allows the team to be kept together for longer.
Supporting your argument on the age thing. On goalies, 31 is the trip wire on age and the Finnish studies are pretty definitive. The groin and hips start to go because of the current goaltending style. The goalies who play beyond that make up for their declining reflexes with intelligence and experience. And there comes a point where intelligence and experience can't compensate for the decline.

On skaters, you are spot on with age. Not quite the same wear and tear as goalies and there is a difference for those who maintain conditioning and those who don't. It does show up in the stats with earlier declines. At about 31-32, there is some physical decline, but it is minimal. The well conditioned guys, barring injury, are losing less than 5% off their prime by the time they hit 35. And 35 does seem to be the tipping point. I am pretty sure there were some facts that went into the selection of 35 as the age for special treatment of contracts.

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