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Old
05-10-2010, 02:21 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Is Bernier supposed to be that good?
He's a potential franchise netminder. He needed to grow up and mature a bit and he did that under Hextall and Lombardi's watch. He was absolutely brilliant in the AHL this year. He's always had the talent, but he never really had to work at things because they came easy for him. He ran into some difficulties and it did him a world of good. He sulked a bit and when Hextall told him he just needed to focus on his game and practice hard, his play took off, especially after the second half of last year.

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05-10-2010, 02:28 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
Is Bernier supposed to be that good?
He was considering one of the top young goalies along with Price and Rask. All three have franchise potential.

Personally I don't think JVR gets it done for Bernier because the Kings want to develop their own franchise goalie and Bernier is more likely to become one than Quick, IMO. I think they keep him.

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05-10-2010, 02:56 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I just read on another Flyers board that Chuck Gormley was just on the Fan 590 in Toronto. He said they want to find a goalie they would stick with for the next 10 years. Said they might be willing to part with JVR for Price or Bernier.

Which is interesting because the other day in Carchidi's chat he said he thinks they would part with JVR in the right deal. He said Giroux is untouchable, but JVR is not. He also said Price and Bernier are their top two choices.
If we trade JVR, the best raw talent we've had since Lindros and maybe the 2nd best raw talent we've had in franchise history at forward, for 1 of 2 guys with significant questions about them (Bernier lack of NHL experience, Price mental issues), I am going to be ****ing apoplectic.

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05-10-2010, 03:06 PM
  #204
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with bobo and sunshine in the system i dont think we need a goalie prospect i think we need a goalie. i think dealing jvr or groux is going to backfire on us hard if we do move them.

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05-10-2010, 03:11 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If we trade JVR, the best raw talent we've had since Lindros and maybe the 2nd best raw talent we've had in franchise history at forward, for 1 of 2 guys with significant questions about them (Bernier lack of NHL experience, Price mental issues), I am going to be ****ing apoplectic.
Oh come on now. JVR is nowhere near the talent that Lindros was. As much as I despise and hate 88, he was something else. He came into the league and was a machine. JVR came into the league and honestly, was a disappointment (for the 2nd overall choice, I expect more than 12 minutes a game of ice time and I expect more than being comfortable being a third line player - if he had one ounce of drive, he would have done everything in his power to be a top line player).

The best raw talent this franchise had ever drafted was probably Pitkanen. Too bad knee issues and being a headcase got in the way because he could have been a Pronger-lite. He had the kind of talent that he could single handedly take over a game. I don't see that kind of talent with JVR.

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05-10-2010, 03:18 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Oh come on now. JVR is nowhere near the talent that Lindros was. As much as I despise and hate 88, he was something else. He came into the league and was a machine. JVR came into the league and honestly, was a disappointment (for the 2nd overall choice, I expect more than 12 minutes a game of ice time and I expect more than being comfortable being a third line player - if he had one ounce of drive, he would have done everything in his power to be a top line player).

The best raw talent this franchise had ever drafted was probably Pitkanen. Too bad knee issues and being a headcase got in the way because he could have been a Pronger-lite. He had the kind of talent that he could single handedly take over a game. I don't see that kind of talent with JVR.
Reread the post.

1) I directly said, best raw talent we've had since Lindros.

2) I said, at forward.

Give JVR some more games, a legitimate center (didn't have one at all during the entire season), PP time, and top-6 minutes and he will blossom. Been ridiculously snakebit in the POs (he can join the parade on that one), but has had some really strong games.

Pitkanen is also not in the discussion because of his complete inability to engage in the physical side of playing defense which is a talent IMO and something he may have had his 1st 40 games here in 05-06, but quickly lost.

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05-10-2010, 03:26 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by captainpaxil View Post
with bobo and sunshine in the system i dont think we need a goalie prospect i think we need a goalie. i think dealing jvr or groux is going to backfire on us hard if we do move them.
If we got a top 10 goalie for the next 10-15 years out of it, you probably would forget about it relatively quickly.

I will be irked if we deal JVR, however, as I think he's got a much higher ceiling than Giroux.

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05-10-2010, 03:31 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If we trade JVR, the best raw talent we've had since Lindros and maybe the 2nd best raw talent we've had in franchise history at forward, for 1 of 2 guys with significant questions about them (Bernier lack of NHL experience, Price mental issues), I am going to be ****ing apoplectic.
JVR is a great talent, but I am not sure he has more talent than Carter and I don't think he is more talented than Giroux. Nor does he have the intangibles that Giroux has.

Saying he is the 2nd best raw talent in franchise history is hyperbole at best and I doubt he'll ever reach the heights to be considered the 2nd best forward in franchise history. When Richie, Carter, Giroux, and JVR all reach their peak I'm not convinced he's even the best forward of the current bunch.

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05-10-2010, 05:01 PM
  #209
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I would have serious issues dealing JVR or Giroux for Price at this point, and I was in the past, originally all for a deal like this. But, in my opinion, I think the market for 1st round goalies, who got beat out of a starting job by another goalie in the system, was set when the Dallas Stars acquired Kari Lehtonen. Now, I do think Price is better than Lehtonen, but given all of the logjams at the goalie position around the league, the market for a young goalie, 1st round selection or not, should not require a recent 2nd overall draft pick.

This is why I think some type of deal should be available for a Coburn or Carle + pics, hell toss in Hartnell just for fun, but it should most definitely NOT be a JVR, at this point in time.

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05-10-2010, 05:04 PM
  #210
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If we can get Bernier, I'm willing to give up JVR. I never liked the pick to begin with.

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05-10-2010, 05:14 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by flountown View Post
I would have serious issues dealing JVR or Giroux for Price at this point, and I was in the past, originally all for a deal like this. But, in my opinion, I think the market for 1st round goalies, who got beat out of a starting job by another goalie in the system, was set when the Dallas Stars acquired Kari Lehtonen. Now, I do think Price is better than Lehtonen, but given all of the logjams at the goalie position around the league, the market for a young goalie, 1st round selection or not, should not require a recent 2nd overall draft pick.

This is why I think some type of deal should be available for a Coburn or Carle + pics, hell toss in Hartnell just for fun, but it should most definitely NOT be a JVR, at this point in time.
Lehtonen was walking injury that never exactly excelled in Atlanta (probably through little fault of his own). Price has had a little bit more success at a younger age.

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05-10-2010, 05:16 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Lehtonen was walking injury that never exactly excelled in Atlanta (probably through little fault of his own). Price has had a little bit more success at a younger age.
Lehtonen was also not going to be re-signed by Atlanta, so that reduced his value. Montreal has--theoretically--no problems with having both Halak and Price under contract next year. So, if you want them you need to get through that aspect, too.

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05-10-2010, 05:19 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
JVR is a great talent, but I am not sure he has more talent than Carter and I don't think he is more talented than Giroux. Nor does he have the intangibles that Giroux has.

Saying he is the 2nd best raw talent in franchise history is hyperbole at best and I doubt he'll ever reach the heights to be considered the 2nd best forward in franchise history. When Richie, Carter, Giroux, and JVR all reach their peak I'm not convinced he's even the best forward of the current bunch.
JVR easily has more talent than Carter, I mean, Carter has never seen a shot he didn't like, JVR has better hands and is a much better passer.

Roo is a great player and I've changed my tune on dealing him, but I don't think he'll ever be in the Kane-St. Louis class because he's never going to be a scorer because he doesn't have a good shot and he knows it.

I mean, JVR's growth curve is going to take longer, at this age, Bobby Ryan was still in the AHL and he might be the nearest comp.

But bottom line, I've virtually never seen a package like JVR. Outside of getting some more snarl (which will hold him back a tad), he literally has all the tools and he has size, I'm not saying he's a guaranteed monster, but once he gets his legs under him, he's going to be a serious force.

I actually did slightly underestimate the NCAA impact, but it's difficult to go from playing 40 games per year to 90+, give him a year or two under his belt and a real C and I think he's going to explode.

The thing with JVR is that we don't know how good he's going to be. I mean, Carts and Richie have pretty much reached their peaks as nearly PPG impact 2-way players who are fantastic, but a touch below the top echelon (OV, Crosby, Malkin, Sedin, etc.) and I think Roo will be in that same category.


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05-10-2010, 05:25 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
JVR easily has more talent than Carter, I mean, Carter has never seen a shot he didn't like, JVR has better hands and is a much better passer.

Roo is a great player and I've changed my tune on dealing him, but I don't think he'll ever be in the Kane-St. Louis class because he's never going to be a scorer because he doesn't have a good shot and he knows it.

I mean, JVR's growth curve is going to take longer, at this age, Bobby Ryan was still in the AHL and he might be the nearest comp.

But bottom line, I've virtually never seen a package like JVR. Outside of getting some more snarl (which will hold him back a tad), he literally has all the tools and he has size, I'm not saying he's a guaranteed monster, but once he gets his legs under him, he's going to be a serious force.

I actually did slightly underestimate the NCAA impact, but it's difficult to go from playing 40 games per year to 90+, give him a year or two under his belt and a real C and I think he's going to explode.
OK, lets slow down. Part of the reason Carter has never seen a shot he didn't want to take is because he has one of the best wrist shots we've ever seen. He's also a MUCH better skater than JVR--which isn't a shot at JVR's skating ability, more a statement of how good Carter's is.

In raw physical tools, Carter is one of the best players to ever put on a Flyers jersey.

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05-10-2010, 05:33 PM
  #215
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OK, lets slow down. Part of the reason Carter has never seen a shot he didn't want to take is because he has one of the best wrist shots we've ever seen. He's also a MUCH better skater than JVR--which isn't a shot at JVR's skating ability, more a statement of how good Carter's is.

In raw physical tools, Carter is one of the best players to ever put on a Flyers jersey.
I have no problems with any of this except bold, which seems like a completely unnecessary and overly dramatic exaggeration.

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05-10-2010, 05:38 PM
  #216
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I have no problems with any of this except bold, which seems like a completely unnecessary and overly dramatic exaggeration.
Carter is one of the best skaters in the league

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05-10-2010, 05:38 PM
  #217
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So I guess the only way we are going to get Bernier is to get rid of Giroux or JVR?

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05-10-2010, 05:42 PM
  #218
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Carter is one of the best skaters in the league
Fastest or best?

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05-10-2010, 05:47 PM
  #219
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Carter is one of the best skaters in the league
Well aware, but "MUCH" is more than excessive. JVR is a fast, smooth skater in his own right. Both are bigger athletes, and those long strides give them a distinct advantage.

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05-10-2010, 05:48 PM
  #220
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Fastest or best?
best,and he's up there speed wise

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05-10-2010, 05:49 PM
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I'm curious, even though Bernier is considered to be a true franchise goalie, don't you think we have enough potential goalies in our system? Or do you think we should go for Bernier, even maybe trading up some of our current goalie prospects for him and also of those we already have in the NHL system?

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05-10-2010, 05:50 PM
  #222
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So I guess the only way we are going to get Bernier is to get rid of Giroux or JVR?
It won't happen. That's what LA would ask for, and the Flyers are going to laugh at them. LA has every right to ask for JVR or Giroux, but it's not like they're going to get one of them for a goaltending prospect. It doesn't matter how much potential that goalie has, he's worth more to the organization than on the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidSnakeUS View Post
I'm curious, even though Bernier is considered to be a true franchise goalie, don't you think we have enough potential goalies in our system? Or do you think we should go for Bernier, even maybe trading up some of our current goalie prospects for him and also of those we already have in the NHL system?
I'm interested in Bernier only if the price is right. This year the price will not be right. I doubt it ever will be since I expect Bernier to take the starter's role in LA in the next couple season, and Quick will be moved.

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05-10-2010, 10:19 PM
  #223
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Lehtonen was also not going to be re-signed by Atlanta, so that reduced his value. Montreal has--theoretically--no problems with having both Halak and Price under contract next year. So, if you want them you need to get through that aspect, too.
So your saying Montreal will keep both goalies and lose Plekanec? Doesn't make much sense to me.

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05-10-2010, 10:39 PM
  #224
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OK, lets slow down. Part of the reason Carter has never seen a shot he didn't want to take is because he has one of the best wrist shots we've ever seen. He's also a MUCH better skater than JVR--which isn't a shot at JVR's skating ability, more a statement of how good Carter's is.

In raw physical tools, Carter is one of the best players to ever put on a Flyers jersey.
The way I see Carts (and I do love him, defended him many times going back to the Kaberle rumors) is that he has 2 assets: speed and his shot. He's average at other things, not a bad playmaker, certainly a good 2-way guy, not a bad FO guy, but his entire game stems from those 2 positives in his game.

JVR I see as having a ton of positives.

- Size - Carter has it, but doesn't really use it, JVR has the beginnings of a great forechecker in him.

- Speed - Obviously he's no Carter who may be one of the top-15 guys in the league from end to end, but he's an above-average skater.

- Shot, again, not quite in Carter's league, but I think he has a very good one, quite heavy, he's given Rask a couple problems with it.

- Passing - Really, really strong IMO, as far as ability to see what nobody else does, maybe the best on the team already (thinking about the behind the back pass to Asham from behind the net which we saw a ton of at UNH).

- Awareness - Strong IMO. You rarely see JVR make a rookie mistake, he's conscientious defensively, is usually in good positions.

The thing with him now is developing more complexity to his game. Whenever we see him come into the zone, he goes outside. I think that's what Lavi has wanted him to do (remember when he was telling JVR to use his speed more), but he really needs to start getting bolder, doesn't have to take guys on 1 v 1, but start cutting to the middle more, become more unpredictable.

I've liked the tack the Flyers have taken with him so far, but now he'll need to take the next step.

I just think it's lunacy to trade a guy who could be developing into a top-10 forward in the league for all we know.

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05-10-2010, 11:16 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
The way I see Carts (and I do love him, defended him many times going back to the Kaberle rumors) is that he has 2 assets: speed and his shot. He's average at other things, not a bad playmaker, certainly a good 2-way guy, not a bad FO guy, but his entire game stems from those 2 positives in his game.

JVR I see as having a ton of positives.

- Size - Carter has it, but doesn't really use it, JVR has the beginnings of a great forechecker in him.

- Speed - Obviously he's no Carter who may be one of the top-15 guys in the league from end to end, but he's an above-average skater.

- Shot, again, not quite in Carter's league, but I think he has a very good one, quite heavy, he's given Rask a couple problems with it.

- Passing - Really, really strong IMO, as far as ability to see what nobody else does, maybe the best on the team already (thinking about the behind the back pass to Asham from behind the net which we saw a ton of at UNH).

- Awareness - Strong IMO. You rarely see JVR make a rookie mistake, he's conscientious defensively, is usually in good positions.

The thing with him now is developing more complexity to his game. Whenever we see him come into the zone, he goes outside. I think that's what Lavi has wanted him to do (remember when he was telling JVR to use his speed more), but he really needs to start getting bolder, doesn't have to take guys on 1 v 1, but start cutting to the middle more, become more unpredictable.

I've liked the tack the Flyers have taken with him so far, but now he'll need to take the next step.

I just think it's lunacy to trade a guy who could be developing into a top-10 forward in the league for all we know.
Even though I kinda agree with the other things (except I dont see him as a future top 10 forward sorry) Giroux has the better vision. Some of the passes Giroux makes are Forsberg like. Being honest, I have maybe seen a handfew from JVR, while Giroux does it every game.

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