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Old
05-12-2010, 08:12 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by cneil99 View Post
I live in Calgary do you realize how many times he said he wanted to stay here too? Obviously not much because he was pretty quick to pack his bags
Could you please provide something to backup the assertion that Cammalleri was unwilling to sign a long term contract with the Kings. Thanks.


Last edited by johnjm22: 05-12-2010 at 08:34 PM.
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05-12-2010, 08:42 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Could you please provide something to backup the assertion that Cammalleri was unwilling to sign a long term contract with the Kings. Thanks.
How about the fact that he signed a long term deal with Montreal for $6 million and Dean wasn't prepared to pay that much for a winger.

Remember that Cammy had not been to the playoffs or had a strong season during his contract year. He got the $6 million after having a strong season with Calgary and played decent in the playoffs.

If Dean signed Cammy to a $5 million contract, then what would Johnson demand? How about Simmonds 2nd contract, he would want $3-4 million. Signing Cammy to that amount would have raised all of the contract demands of the other young players.

Remember that Frolov was at $2.9 million and Brown was at $3.175 million. If cammy asked for $3.5-$4 million for 3 years, he might still be playing for the Kings.

He was asking for too much too soon.

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05-12-2010, 08:51 PM
  #103
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It's easy to beat Dean when he is down, Hindsight is 20,20. Fact is Cammi is playing golf already without Halak.

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05-12-2010, 09:04 PM
  #104
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Fact is Halak is playing golf without Cammalleri also.

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05-12-2010, 09:13 PM
  #105
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Sydor25,

Your response doesn't make sense to me. The question was asking you to provide some solid back up stating where MC said that HE didn't want to sign with the Kings, not what DL was or wasn't prepared to offer him.

It is a fact that when MC and his agent went in to negotiate his first big contract with DL that he was offered less than he felt that he had earned and that his case went to an arbitrator. MC was willing to sign with us at first.

MC has clearly proven that his dollar value for production is worth more than $5mill he was supposed to be asking so comparing him the JMFJ (a non issue at the time that MC went in to neg his first full pay deal with DL) or what Simmonds, a solid grinding winger who has yet to pop his first 20 goal season would want or deserve.

The MC deal was (or wasn't) made over three seasons ago now and JJ's contract along with the rest have yet to come into their own, it doesn't make any sense to compare them or to add them into this debate in that they play different positions and provide different skillsets with different values to the success of a team.

A fair comparison would be to compare MC's ppg average with other sniper/scoring forwards of his type (that several of us are drooling over and hoping to sign this offseason) and their point production both during the regular and post seasons.

If you do that then MC at $5-5.5 mill (as reported he was seeking at the time) is a complete and total steal.

Oh and on the Halak comment, well, every player is golfing right now without their goalies so I don't get that one either.

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05-12-2010, 09:16 PM
  #106
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Oh and hindsight might be 20 20 but so is common sense and giving up a proven young elite talent level sniper AND a first round pick for an un proven draft pick outside of the top 5 no matter how deep the draft is said to be will always be an act of stupidity in my opinion.

But like I said in another post, DL has done an amazing job and as much as I think the MC deal was a total screwup, if you stand it up against the great job that DL has done it doesn't matter all too much.

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05-12-2010, 09:32 PM
  #107
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It seems like people are forgetting that Cammy had 26 goals, 34 goals and then 19 goals (and was injured). Williams has 2 30 goal seasons and a stanley cup ring and is only making $3.5 million.

Brown had a 33 goal season and has only missed 10 games in 5 seasons. He's only making $3.2 million. Frolov had a 35 goal season and is only making $2.9 million.

Dean doesn't give out huge contracts to wingers. He feels that they are 4th on the list of important positions.

You really think Dean was going to give $5-6 million to winger with one good season after he goes on record that you have to build down the middle?

Cammy had 5 goals in 28 games, 9 goals in 31 games, 26 goals in 80 games, 34 goals in 81 games and finally 19 goals in 63 games. That is not a $5-6 million dollar winger, especially an RFA winger. If you add up those goals and games, you get a 27 goal winger.

Gaborik got $7.5 million after 4 30 goal seasons and 1 40 goal season and he was an UFA. Cammy got his $6 million after a strong season in Calgary.


Last edited by Sydor25: 05-12-2010 at 09:38 PM.
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05-12-2010, 09:35 PM
  #108
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"It doesn't matter all that much"

Thank you.

As for Sydor's comparisons, they have some relevance. DL has been very outspoken about valuing wingers least of all the positions. There is some interesting thought to the point that if DL set a standard with Cammy as a winger, centers and defenseman, knowing their GM intrinsically values their positions as higher than a wingers, would expect to paid accordingly. The bar was set with Kopitar, where it should have been. No bar should have been set at the time.

I truly think Cammy was more of a victim of bad timing than DL disliking him.

If you took Cammy's situation and had that fateful contract that led to arbitration ending this season, I bet DL would play it very differently. DL has been trying to create the perfect storm for the Kings, and timing is critical.

It sucks that Cammy's personal timeline, while wholly deserved on his part, did not match up with DL's rebuild.

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05-12-2010, 10:04 PM
  #109
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JDM,

Which is why I think Dean will make a strong push for Kovalchuk now. He has the bar set with Kopitar as far as cap hit and he will approach Kovalchuk with a higher salary at first, but lower the salary later in the contract to get the cap hit around Kopitar's.

Detroit was successful because Lidtrom set the cap bar. Of course the Kings don't have the Stanley Cup banners to entice free agents like Detroit, but I think players are taking notice of how the Kings are being built. Just like how Chicago was able to get Hossa for a lower cap hit.

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05-12-2010, 10:06 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
JDM,

Which is why I think Dean will make a strong push for Kovalchuk now. He has the bar set with Kopitar as far as cap hit and he will approach Kovalchuk with a higher salary at first, but lower the salary later in the contract to get the cap hit around Kopitar's.

Detroit was successful because Lidtrom set the cap bar. Of course the Kings don't have the Stanley Cup banners to entice free agents like Detroit, but I think players are taking notice of how the Kings are being built. Just like how Chicago was able to get Hossa for a lower cap hit.
All strictly according to plan

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05-12-2010, 10:25 PM
  #111
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I agree Cammalleri was probably leaving, but the Kings needed a better return than a pick leading to Teubert.

Teubert is never going to be an NHL regular. Yes, I know this.

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05-12-2010, 10:26 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackJohnsonFan View Post
I agree Cammalleri was probably leaving, but the Kings needed a better return than a pick leading to Teubert.

Teubert is never going to be an NHL regular. Yes, I know this.
A maybe is still better than the nothing that Calgary got.

Dean admitted that the market for Cammy was lower than he thought it would be. Apparently, 28 other GMs weren't too excited about Cammy either.

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05-12-2010, 10:29 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Yeah, but the difference is, we have quotes. We actually have DL telling us that it isn't going to happen and that he doesn't want to play here. Obviously you are throwing him under the bus, therefore you wouldn't believe him, but you have nothing on your side. Other than your own conjecture and conspiracy theories based on numbers that can fall either way without evidence. I am going to trust the guy who was actually in the conversation and knows what he is talking about.

As for Teubert, I probably wouldn't select him with the pick, but at the time I was yelling at my screen for us to pick Myers... Either way though, I have to be rational enough to wait until the full value of the asset is assessed before I pass judgment. Obviously the chances are stacked against Teubert on ever getting his name in the HHOF, but we still have no clue where the guy ends up. I can't say that Myers would have had the season he did on the Kings being the third guy beneath Doughty and Johnson.

At this very moment, you are right, we received poor compensation for Cammy, though there are pretty simple reasons for that. Other teams knew the problems we were having with him and his intentions, and he wasn't worth as much as he had been the year before or now. He wasn't established, never proved consistent, and was coming off a low point as well as proving to be injury prone.



Well, he obviously isn't losing now. He is playing in a Canadian atmosphere like he wanted and getting his money, but that doesn't change the fact that he couldn't get his way in LA and instead of getting his demands met, he ended up with a fair value contract instead.



I love how you say all this stuff in hypothetical context, but then say that Dean never made a reasonable offer, as if we know. Obviously he wasn't offered his $5-6 million, but that doesn't prove that we didn't offer a reasonable contract below it. Cammy had to reject a contract offer to get where he did. Either way, he has arguably proven himself worthy of his price tag now, but he was no where near it at the time. The season he put up this year is quite close to the season he put up the year he was traded.
OK, I stayed out for a while, but some points NEED to be made:

1) Its never been confirmed by ANYONE that Cammy would not have signed here had the money been right. The fact remains that he spends lots of off-season time here and has NOT SOLD HIS HOUSE in Manhattan Beach. He likes Los Angeles.

2) DL does not like Cammy as a person. I heard it from his own mouth. Find it in the other threads where I've mentioned it. People, even those in business dont say things like that just because it business. There were real reasons why I named DL a shill a while back. His public vs. his private comments about Cammy being one of the main reasons.

3) DL did not believe Cammy was worth anywhere near the money he was asking. DL knew that the 6MM demand was posturing, and an initial demand based on Cammy, acting as his team's NHLPA rep, trying to bring up, league wide, player salaries by tying his demand to Vaneks offer sheet. Thats from DL himself, no speculation, no guessing. That is what DL knew. He was not going to even negotiate. He knew, before the 2008 draft that he was going to jettison Cammy, and extracted vows of silence from those of us in attendance at those (private STH) meetings when he told us.

4) Keeping Cammy would not have handcuffed the Kings anymore than Ryan Smyth's contract currently does and maybe less, because Cammy would have signed for less. Simply put, every negotiator knows that you always ask for far more than you are willing to accept, so you can compromise and still get what you really want. The fact that he got 6MM from Montreal is based far more on his SUBSEQUENT almost 40 goal and almost ppg season with Calgary than his speculated steadfastness at taking nothing less than 6MM from the Kings.

5) Sure Cammy can say, AFTER PLAYING in Calgary and/or Montreal that he, as a result of playing there, realized that he has always wanted to do that, but if DL had negotiated in good faith, IF HE HAD WANTED CAMMY (which he didnt) and Cammy had signed a 4-5year contract at 4.5-5MM per year, Cammy wouldn't have had that experience (of playing in a Canadian City) to shape his "realizations." There is nothing, fact or quote-wise, from when Cammy was here that said he wanted to be somewhere else. In an interview quoted in aother thread from a time pre-dating my membership, Cammy said he wanted to be here and was looking forward to seeing what the team would do. he was asked point blank if he saw himself as a member of the team next year and he said he did. As many of you are fond of saying, hindsight is 20/20. When you talk about Cammy not wanting to be here, you place the cart before the horse. DL DIDNT WANT HIM HERE, so how can you possibly blame that on Cammy.

6) Scoring (sniper-like) goals is something you cant teach, and some people have a knack for it and others dont. Cammy has that knack, a quick release and accurate placement. He finds seams and for a player his size, he plays a lot bigger.

The facts are that DL decided he didnt want him here and basically let him know that by his actions in contracts "negotiations" if they could be called that. To blame a player and say he didnt want to stay here when the GM basically says and acts like he is a POS is at best biased and at worst dishonest and deceptive.

There is no doubt Cammy can play, and I am well beyond him no longer being a King. I am truly happy for him that he is finding the success he didnt have, teamwise, here.

What I can't fathom is why some of you still think he is not the player the rest of the league and every hockey sports talk show acknowledges that he really is. If you treat a guy like crap, because you dont value him, and then don't negotiate in good faith, who's fault is it if he doesn't stay, even if he had wanted to? (this hometown discount crap is just that--Did Kopitar take one?)

Try treating your wife/GF like crap for a while and see what happens!


Last edited by DIEHARD the King fan: 05-12-2010 at 10:51 PM.
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Old
05-12-2010, 10:29 PM
  #114
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I'm sorry, but my feeling is that Cammy would have left anyway - it always seemed that he had a me first attitude. I'm not knocking the guy, but he did what was right for him and the Kings did what was right for them (although I agree that they could have and should have gotten more for him in the trade). Given a young team, I'm not sure that he would have had the right TEAM FIRST attitude.

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05-12-2010, 10:29 PM
  #115
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Calgary got a 39-goal season. Hardly "nothing".

Especially considering Teubert won't have 39 career points.

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05-12-2010, 10:35 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackJohnsonFan View Post
Calgary got a 39-goal season. Hardly "nothing".

Especially considering Teubert won't have 39 career points.
Teubert is 20 years old. Give it time.

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05-12-2010, 10:38 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
How about the fact that he signed a long term deal with Montreal for $6 million and Dean wasn't prepared to pay that much for a winger.
He was a UFA, with two 80 point seasons under his belt at the time he signed that contract.

He was an RFA at the time Dean had his opportunity to lock him up, but chose not to try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Remember that Cammy had not been to the playoffs or had a strong season during his contract year. He got the $6 million after having a strong season with Calgary and played decent in the playoffs.
Exactly. That's why Dean should have offered him a contract for something less than 6M per year. Had Dean offered him something like say, 4.5 for 5 years, MC might still be a King today. But we'll never know.

Had Cammy walked away from a reasonable offer, then Dean would not be at fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
If Dean signed Cammy to a $5 million contract, then what would Johnson demand? How about Simmonds 2nd contract, he would want $3-4 million. Signing Cammy to that amount would have raised all of the contract demands of the other young players.

Johnson and Simmonds are not comparable to Cammy at the time of his contract. This was Cammy's 3rd contract, and he had put up all star numbers in the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Remember that Frolov was at $2.9 million and Brown was at $3.175 million. If cammy asked for $3.5-$4 million for 3 years, he might still be playing for the Kings.
Not comparables.


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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
He was asking for too much too soon.
It's called negotiating. The player starts high, the GM starts low, then they meet somewhere in the middle. But we'll never know if that could have taken place because Dean chose not to attempt to sign Cammy long term.

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05-12-2010, 10:39 PM
  #118
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Frolov and Brown are not comparables.

Frolov before he signed his contract: (2nd contract, 39M Salary CAP)
2002-03 79gp 14g 17a 31pts
2003-04 77gp 24g 24a 48pts

Brown before he signed his contract:
(2nd contract, 44M Salary CAP)
2003-04 31gp 1g 4a 5pts
2004-05 In minors (lockout)
2005-06 79gp 14g 14a 28pts

Cammalleri before arbitration: (3rd contract, 50.3M Salary CAP)
2002-03 28gp 5g 3a 8pts
2003-04 31gp 9g 6a 15pts
2004-05 minors (lockout)
2005-06 80gp 26g 29a 55pts
2006-07 81gp 34g 46a 80pts

Cammalleri had put up more points in one season than either Brown or Frolov had put up in their entire careers at the time of each one's contract signing.

This was MC's 3rd contract, and only the 2nd contract for Frolov and Brown.

Cammalleri had been scoring at a 20 goal plus pace for 3 straight NHL seasons.

Also note the salary CAP. Player salaries rise as the CAP rises.

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05-12-2010, 10:41 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by cneil99 View Post
I live in Calgary do you realize how many times he said he wanted to stay here too? Obviously not much because he was pretty quick to pack his bags
Cammalleri isn't in Calgary right now because the Flames didn't have the cap space for him. He wanted to come back and tried to get his teammates to talk Sutter into offering him a contract, but Sutter wanted Bouwmeester.

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05-12-2010, 10:42 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
OK, I stayed out for a while, but some points NEED to be made:

1) Its never been confirmed by ANYONE that Cammy would not have signed here had the money been right. The fact remains that he spends lots of off-season time here and has NOT SOLD HIS HOUSE in Manhattan Beach. He likes Los Angeles.
Quite a few hockey players have homes in the LA area. Kovalchuk has a home in Florida, doesn't mean he is going to play for the Panthers if they offered him his $7.5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
2) DL does not like Cammy as a person. I heard it from his own mouth. Find it in the other threads where I've mentioned it. People, even those in business dont say things like that just because it business. There were real reasons why I named DL a shill a while back. His public vs. his private comments about Cammy being one of the main reasons.
Yeah, he didn't like him, so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
3) DL did not believe Cammy was worth anywhere near the money he was asking. DL knew that the 6MM demand was posturing, and an initial demand based on Cammy, acting as his team's NHLPA rep, trying to bring up, league wide, player salaries by tying his demand to Vaneks offer sheet. Thats from DL himself, no speculation, no guessing. That is what DL knew. He was not going to even negotiate.
No one believed Cammy was worth anywhere near the money he was asking. We also know why the demand was made and the basis behind it, but we have no idea what the negotiations entailed. They only talked about offers given, not negotiations, there were talks, just not much in the way of offers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
4) Keeping Cammy would not have handcuffed the Kings anymore than Ryan Smyth's contract currently does and maybe less, because Cammy would have signed for less. Simply put, every negotiator knows that you always ask for far more than you are willing to accept, so you can compromise and still get what you really want. The fact that he got 6MM from Montreal is based far more on his SUBSEQUENT almost 40 goal and almost ppg season with Calgary than his speculated steadfastness at taking nothing less than 6MM from the Kings.
Smyth brings more to the table than just goal scoring, and of course his $6 million from Montreal was based on his play in Calgary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
5) Sure Cammy can say, AFTER PLAYING in Calgary and/or Montreal that he as a result realized that he has always wanted to do that, but if DL had negotiated in good faith, IF HE HAD WANTED CAMMY (which he didnt) and Cammy had signed a 4-5year contract at 4.5-5MM per year, he wouldn't have had that experience to shape his "realizations." There is nothing from when Cammy was here that said he wanted to be somewhere else. In an interview quoted in aother thread from a time pre-dating my membership, Cammy said he wanted to be here and was looking forward to seeing what the team would do. he was asked point blank if he saw himself as a member of the team next year and he said he did. As many of you are fond of saying, hindsight is 20/20. When you talk about Cammy not wanting to be here, you place the cart before the horse. DL DIDNT WANT HIM HERE, so how can you possibly blame that on Cammy.
Every player says that. Kovalchuk said that about the Thrashers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
6) Scoring (sniper-like) goals is something you cant teach, and some people have a knack for it and others dont. Cammy has that knack, a quick release and accurate placement. He finds seams and for a player his size, he plays a lot bigger.
That he does, it will be good when we get another player on this team that can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
The facts are that DL decided he didnt want him here and basically let him know that by his actions in contracts "negotiations" if they could be called that. To blame a player and say he didnt want to stay here when the GM basically says and acts like you are a POS is at best biased and at worst dishonest and deceptive.
DL's opinion of Cammy has no basis on what was said during negotiations. DL would know more than anyone whether a player wanted to stay or not.

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05-12-2010, 10:53 PM
  #121
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The reason that the Kings have the cap space for a Kovalchuk right now is because Dean had a salary plan for the Kings and stuck with it. He wasn't about the over pay to keep Cammy. Frolov and Brown had their contracts signed when Cammy was negotiating.

Do you think that Frolov should get $6 million per season? He also has 2 30+ goal seasons. I think Frolov should get around $3.5-4 million per season, similar to what Cammy should have received.

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05-12-2010, 10:59 PM
  #122
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It's funny how the Flames say they didn't have the cap space...then they sign Bouwmeester for 6.8 per year. So that evens out the loss of Cammy, but they added to their defense, that was already strong and lost a sniper, something they are still looking for.

Sutter then trades Phaneuf, who makes 6-7 million and turns around and gives Stajan 3 milion, takes on Hagman's 4 million and will now have to deal with Ian Whites RFA status. So they traded Phaneuf and end up taking more salary back.

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05-12-2010, 11:14 PM
  #123
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Wingers making more- Cap hit/Avg Goals per 82 games:

Ovechkin-$9.538/56
Heatley-$7.5/42
Gaborik-$7.5/37
Iginla-$7.0/35
Kovalchuk-$6.4/45
Smyth-$6.25/28
Sedin-$6.1/24
Cammy-$6.0/30

Wingers making less:

Perry-$5.325/26
Pominville-$5.3/26
St. Louis-$5.25/28
Gagne-$5.25/32
Havlat-$5.0/28
Gionta-$5.0/28
Huselius-$4.75/24
Semin-$4.6/37
Penner-$4.25/25
Williams-$3.5/20
Frolov-$2.9/26


Based on current career averages, Cammy may be where he should be salary wise, but he was no where near that level 3 years ago.

Looking at that, Frolov will make close to $5 million next season.

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05-12-2010, 11:28 PM
  #124
DIEHARD the King fan
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Originally Posted by Telos View Post

Yeah, he didn't like him, so? .
So, there was more to JUST BUSINESS than business as DL and others on his behalf have said when discussing this issue.



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No one believed Cammy was worth anywhere near the money he was asking. We also know why the demand was made and the basis behind it, but we have no idea what the negotiations entailed. They only talked about offers given, not negotiations, there were talks, just not much in the way of offers. .
You're correct, because DL was not going to make a real attempt or negotiate in good faith, to sign a guy who he had NO DESIRE TO KEEP ON THE TEAM. He made a judgment call on Cammys ability to contribute that has truned out to be FLAT OUT WRONG.


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Smyth brings more to the table than just goal scoring.
Maybe we can look to the 2010 playoffs and you can let me know exactly what the "more to the table" is that Smyth brought, (not that he brought Goal scoring either) because all I saw from him was a classic performance in the role of Caspar.
We needed on this team in the playoffs this year exactly what Cammy brought to Montreal, scoring and leading his team by example. Listening to him on the numerous interviews he has given in the last two weeks, its all about his teammates. He's bought in to the team system, and if you dont think Jacques Martin stresses Team Defense as much or more than TM, then you need a hockey 101 class.



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That he does, it will be good when we get another player on this team that can.
We had one who we could have kept for significantly cheaper than what we will have to pay for one now. One who was homegrown, or were thoase just words said that had no meaning? If you dont try to keep your homegrown talent, whose fault is it that they leave?



Quote:
DL's opinion of Cammy has no basis on what was said during negotiations. DL would know more than anyone whether a player wanted to stay or not.
Arguably true in a genral sense, but WRONG in this case. The point is, he didnt care what Cammy wanted (to stay or not) He thought poorly of his play and even less of him as a person. Therefore it had EVERYTHING to do with whether he stayed or not. DL didnt want him here, wasn't going to pay for him after arbitration and that was it. IT WAS HIS WRONG JUDGMENT on CAMMY's ABILITY which is the reason he isnt here. You cant stay if the GM trades you, no matter how much you want to, and DL knew he was jettisoning Cammy even before the 2008 draft.

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05-12-2010, 11:30 PM
  #125
DIEHARD the King fan
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
It's funny how the Flames say they didn't have the cap space...then they sign Bouwmeester for 6.8 per year. So that evens out the loss of Cammy, but they added to their defense, that was already strong and lost a sniper, something they are still looking for.

Sutter then trades Phaneuf, who makes 6-7 million and turns around and gives Stajan 3 milion, takes on Hagman's 4 million and will now have to deal with Ian Whites RFA status. So they traded Phaneuf and end up taking more salary back.
This is why the claims of CAP HELL are mostly ludicrous. Teams find a way to get what they want and fit within the cap. Thats what GM's are paid to do.

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