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Habs 17th according to THN

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Old
02-24-2005, 01:59 PM
  #26
2112
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It seems right for sure...however Philadephia at #2 is a bit off, seeing as how HF has them at #20 or so. I'd put them somewhere in 10-20 range.

I agree with a poster above, the non defensive depth is what kills us.

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02-24-2005, 06:10 PM
  #27
Vlad The Impaler
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2112
It seems right for sure...however Philadephia at #2 is a bit off, seeing as how HF has them at #20 or so. I'd put them somewhere in 10-20 range.

I agree with a poster above, the non defensive depth is what kills us.
The reason Philly is at 2 is probably because they are really liking their top prospects and put a lot of stock into top guys compared to the way HF proceeds.

Anyway, some of HF's rankings were fairly crappy too. The Thrashers high up there was really weird.

Only way to find rankings you like: do-it-yourself

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02-24-2005, 06:33 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duster
If the game I saw yesterday between the Dogs and Leafs is any indication, the Habs better hope that O'Byrne and Korneev etc... make it. Should there be a draft this summer, I'm hoping BPA will be a defenseman when BG has to speak. The lack of quality in that position, outside of Komisarek, is kind of scary. Focht, Hainsey and co. are not the solution imo.
Fortunatly, prospects aren't the only way to get players on a team. There is a thing called trading and most people here seem to forget about that. We have a lot of good prospects at forward and, eventually, some will have to be traded because they'll be NHL ready but there will not be any space for them on the big team. Gainey will have to trade one or two and get a decent d-man in return. Simple logic.

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Old
02-24-2005, 07:25 PM
  #29
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I received my magazine this morning, and I've never seen a ranking that is so bad. What the hell is Kesler doing at number 16? Come on!!! Yeah he's good, but his potential is not even of a first liner.

Rob Schremp not even in the top 75.

And like you all said, even our team sucks. Streit?? No Locke???

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Old
02-24-2005, 07:28 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by alexstream
I wouldn't give them too much credit.

First, 17th is a scandal. you can place us lower than 1st or top 5, but lower than top ten??? very questionnable.

Then, if you look at the list of our top ten, you understand that they are CLUELESS!!!
All goes well untill you get to #9. Mark Streit is completly out of the map!!! he's 27 y.o. was drafted last year at #262 overall by the habs... IMO he's no more than a longshot benchwarmer for Hamilton... yet, according to these knowledgeable folks at HN, he cuts our top ten before Locke, Korpirari, Milroy, O'Byrne, Korneev, Grabovski... etc.

(1) ANDREI KOSTITSYN
(2) CHRIS HIGGINS
(3) ALEXANDER PEREZHOGIN
(4) YANN DANIS
(5) KYKLE CHIPCHURA
(6) TOMAS PLEKANEC
(7) RON HAINSEY
(8) MARCEL HOSSA
(9) MARK STREIT
(10) MAXIM LAPIERRE

If you want my advice, keep to Hockey's Future ranking, less reknowned, but done with passion.
http://hockeysfuture.com/orgrankings.php
http://www.hfboards.com/showpost.php...0&postcount=86

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Old
03-04-2005, 02:43 PM
  #31
Vlad The Impaler
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I thought I would resurrect this thread. The article on Mark Streit, as well as people I talked to suggest this list was made by consulting Habs management. Which means most gripes in this thread were unfounded.

Like the list or not, THN are not solely to blame (or praise, depending if one likes it or not) for this list. This seems to reflect in good part what Habs management themselves think of their prospects.

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03-04-2005, 02:55 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
I thought I would resurrect this thread. The article on Mark Streit, as well as people I talked to suggest this list was made by consulting Habs management. Which means most gripes in this thread were unfounded.

Like the list or not, THN are not solely to blame (or praise, depending if one likes it or not) for this list. This seems to reflect in good part what Habs management themselves think of their prospects.
Not really Vlad, isin't that THN list supposed to be for prospects under 21?

I'll agree with you that maybe habs management has bigger plans for Streit than we thought, but I don't think they consider him as a prospect, more of a immediate help type of guy

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03-04-2005, 03:02 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
Not really Vlad, isin't that THN list supposed to be for prospects under 21?

I'll agree with you that maybe habs management has bigger plans for Streit than we thought, but I don't think they consider him as a prospect, more of a immediate help type of guy
No, only the combined list (top 50 or top 60) is for U21. The individual top 10 for each team are different and do not take age into account. According to the folks I talked to (and this is consistent with last years) the top 10s are done by interviewing each organization first, and then with input from their own people. They do take what teams have to say very much into consideration.

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03-04-2005, 03:02 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 417 TO MTL
Not really Vlad, isin't that THN list supposed to be for prospects under 21?

I'll agree with you that maybe habs management has bigger plans for Streit than we thought, but I don't think they consider him as a prospect, more of a immediate help type of guy
The Hockey News is a prospect list. They include NHL players 21 and under in their rankings of each organization. They also have a lot of input (like 100%) from NHL scouts. Hockey's Future rankings are done by fans and are 100% bias. When HF pays their writers and they have the scouts ears, then their rankings will hold more weight. Until then McKeens is 2nd to THN.

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03-04-2005, 03:27 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
The Hockey News is a prospect list. They include NHL players 21 and under in their rankings of each organization. They also have a lot of input (like 100%) from NHL scouts. Hockey's Future rankings are done by fans and are 100% bias. When HF pays their writers and they have the scouts ears, then their rankings will hold more weight. Until then McKeens is 2nd to THN.
I heard THN only asked 16 organizations scouts this year. Is this true? If this is true, it could skew the results for this year.

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Old
03-04-2005, 03:28 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
The Hockey News is a prospect list. They include NHL players 21 and under in their rankings of each organization. They also have a lot of input (like 100%) from NHL scouts. Hockey's Future rankings are done by fans and are 100% bias. When HF pays their writers and they have the scouts ears, then their rankings will hold more weight. Until then McKeens is 2nd to THN.
Some of the staffers here do have the ears of scouts, the players and even NHL general managers.

The quality at HF is on the rise, IMO.

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Old
03-04-2005, 03:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
The Hockey News is a prospect list. They include NHL players 21 and under in their rankings of each organization. They also have a lot of input (like 100%) from NHL scouts. Hockey's Future rankings are done by fans and are 100% bias. When HF pays their writers and they have the scouts ears, then their rankings will hold more weight. Until then McKeens is 2nd to THN.
Thats fine. But I dont understand why they would exclude all prospects over 21 when doing organizational rankings. Guys like Perezhogin, Plekanec, Higgins, Komisarek, and Danis are probably five guys that will be a big part of the core for years to come and likely will be in the NHL whenever play resumes. Just because they are 22 or 23 years old, they shouldn't be counted as part of the prospect base? doesn't make sense.

I have no beef with the rankings. When it comes to 21 year old and younger, the Habs are probably in the middle of the pack since you can only count Chipchura, Locke, and Kosty as legit prospects (even Locke is questionable at this point). However, when you include all those include all those other guys, the Habs probably jump to top five to eight, which incidentally is where HF has them.

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03-04-2005, 04:47 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by AH
Thats fine. But I dont understand why they would exclude all prospects over 21 when doing organizational rankings. Guys like Perezhogin, Plekanec, Higgins, Komisarek, and Danis are probably five guys that will be a big part of the core for years to come and likely will be in the NHL whenever play resumes. Just because they are 22 or 23 years old, they shouldn't be counted as part of the prospect base? doesn't make sense.

I have no beef with the rankings. When it comes to 21 year old and younger, the Habs are probably in the middle of the pack since you can only count Chipchura, Locke, and Kosty as legit prospects (even Locke is questionable at this point). However, when you include all those include all those other guys, the Habs probably jump to top five to eight, which incidentally is where HF has them.
They don't exclude them, unless they are NHL players. They consider them established NHLers. Prospect lists for the teams have players over 21.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Some of the staffers here do have the ears of scouts, the players and even NHL general managers.

The quality at HF is on the rise, IMO.
and that was a point I meant to make, but forgot. Thanks for covering Vlad.

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Old
03-04-2005, 07:26 PM
  #39
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Best CH prospect 21 or under

1.Alex Perezhogin
2.Andrei Kostitsyn
3.Chris Higgins
4.Kyle Chipchura
5.Corey Locke
6.Maxime Lapierre
7.Ryan O'byrne
8.Konstantin Korneev
9.Chris Heino-Lindberg
10.Alexei Yemelin

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Old
03-04-2005, 07:44 PM
  #40
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What about Andrew Archer? Has everybody written him off already?

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03-04-2005, 08:14 PM
  #41
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THN is not an under 21 list at all.

Neither the individual team lists nor the top 50 list has a cut off of 21 years old.

The only relevance to the age of 21 is that when doing the organizational rankings, they also take into account NHL players 21 or under (Montreal doesn't have any.)

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03-04-2005, 08:30 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army

Neither the individual team lists nor the top 50 list has a cut off of 21 years old.
I dont think so.

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Old
03-04-2005, 08:42 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by AH
I dont think so.
What don't you think?

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Old
03-04-2005, 08:50 PM
  #44
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Ok - the lists explained.

Let's break it into three parts:
Part 1: Top ten prospects per team
Part 2: Top fifty NHL prospects (they go to top 75 - you can see prospects 51-75 noted in their respective teams top 10)
Part 3: Organizational rankings

Part 1 (top 10 prospects per team) and Part 2 ( top 50/75) have no age limits attached. None. Kronwall is 24 years old and the Wings top prospect and he is in the top 50 list as well.

The organizational rankings (part 3) include NHL players 21 years old or younger as well as the top 10 prospects.

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Old
03-05-2005, 06:49 AM
  #45
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Alfie#11 has the description of the list perfectly. We don't have any 21-and-under NHLers, and we have plenty of over-21 players (Danis, Plekanec, Hainsey, Hossa, Streit) on our top-10 list.

It is also true that they only talked to representatives from 16 teams in compiling the list, barely half the league, which I think shows up pretty clearly in the way some of the lists just carry over players from last year's edition, even though the radar readings should have changed on some of those players.

I also find a couple of other observations on the THN rankings probably factor in to how we fared:

- "superstar factor": having one or two elite level prospects can really pull a team ahead... and I don't think the Habs have anybody at all who is widely regarded as an elite prospect (Kostitsyn is closest, but there are enough concerns about his game and other issues that he can't remotely be mentioned in the same breath as Ovechkin, Carter, Malkin, Getzlaf, Lehtonen, Phaneuf, etc.)

- "grinder factor": it looks to me like a number of guys lower down on many team's top-10 lists are guys who are perceived to have solid chances of making the NHL, even if it is in just grinder capacity... whereas I don't think Plekanec, Hainsey, Hossa, and Streit types could be viewed by the community-at-large as other than hit-or-miss types with a good chance of miss.

Anyway, rankings will vary widely from individual to individual, and depend on the criteria used. Personally, when I look at the THN list, the teams after us are generally worthy of being after us, IMHO, and a good enough case can be made for the teams ahead of us being ahead of us. There isn't really all that much separating the prospect systems of most NHL teams (with a few notable exceptions at either extreme). Nobody can know how all the prospects will turn out, and it's entirely possible that a team ranked 22nd today will turn out tomorrow to have been better off than a team ranked 9th.

Anywhere from 10th to 20th, that's where we belong, IMO, regardless of criteria used. So give us 17th, and it's a fair enough judgement.

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Old
03-05-2005, 09:09 AM
  #46
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It must be because of the lockout that only 16 teams responded. Every year that I can remember of this publication, they have had full representation from all teams.

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Old
03-05-2005, 03:39 PM
  #47
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My problem with the Hockey News is that Herb Zerkowsky (sp?) is the Montreal correspondant when he doesn't even cover the Habs. Makes me wonder about the quality of coverage in the other cities.

THN is a load of crap most of the time.

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Old
03-08-2005, 03:02 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ
THN reports we're ranked 17th in the league when it comes to players 21 y.o. or less. Does this sound right to you guys?

The Habs farm system has not had exactly a stellar year. A couple of first rounders have disappointed (Hainsey, Hossa), with the injury to Chipchura, the Perezhogin stick swinging, and graduation of former prospects like Komisarek and Ryder. I would rate the Habs farm system around the middle of the pack.

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