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Proposal-Iginla to New jersey

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Old
03-06-2005, 01:42 PM
  #201
Dr Love
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
Wait in a minute, how old is that proposed deal? Because didn't the Flyers trade away Williams to Carolina ages ago, way before Iginla outstanding playoff run? I mean his value his much higher now than at the time of that proposed deal you just named.
Williams was sent to Carolina for Markov about midway throught the season.

EDIT: January 20th.

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03-06-2005, 01:43 PM
  #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Williams was sent to Carolina for Markov about midway throught the season.
Yeah I was pretty sure it wasn't a trading deadline deal.

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03-06-2005, 01:45 PM
  #203
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And IIRC that rumor was from 2003 as well.

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03-06-2005, 01:51 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
That's a three for two deal which changes everything and I imagine that he Flyers were the ones to pull out of that one, I can only imagine how hard it would be for Clarke to trade away by far two of their best young players even if it's for a stud.

Wait in a minute, how old is that proposed deal? Because didn't the Flyers trade away Williams to Carolina ages ago, way before Iginla outstanding playoff run? I mean his value his much higher now than at the time of that proposed deal you just named.
This was after Iginla's 2002 Art Ross and Maurice Richard season. Craig Button said Iginla for Gagne, Wiilliams and Pitkanan, Clarke said kick in Conroy and the deal was scrapped.

In my eyes,
Williams = Conroy (or >)
Gagne + Pitkanan = Iginla

That seems to be the bottum line for me.

Ironic that you and your fellow NJ fans are calling "us" Flame fans dilusional and whatnot and saying all of us should get slapped in the mouth, when the "us" happens to include Av, Canuck and Isles fans. To be honest, I think things go around the other way. Nobody here is undervaluing Elias and Parise, the thing that you don't seem to get is how much value arguably the best (as said by a few including Bob MacKenzie) player in the NHL.

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03-06-2005, 01:53 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
Uh, the way I see it once a prospect proves himself in the NHL he's not a proven prospect but a proven NHL player, thus he can never be a proven prospect in the NHL but only before it. A proven prospect is one who has been hyped up as a top prospect and continues to "prove" his worth as one at evey level below the NHL, which Parise has done with flying colors. But even proven prospects can be busts, no doubt.
You are playing games here. I never said he wasn't a good prospect. I said he wasn't a proven pro - and he is not.

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03-06-2005, 01:54 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
but he is most definitly qualifies as a sure thing when it comes to complete hockey players with character and intangibles up the ying yang.
Parise will be a sure thing when he has actually played in the NHL and shown he can produce. Right now, he is a promising prospect - nothing more.

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03-06-2005, 02:03 PM
  #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Parise will be a sure thing when he has actually played in the NHL and shown he can produce. Right now, he is a promising prospect - nothing more.
And that can be said for the same thing about Ovechkin or even Crosby, but there is any doubt that these guys will not be proven players if not stars? Even better yet would you not say that they are proven prospects, because I'll go back to my little "game" you think I'm playing and say again that if they are not proven prospects then is their so such thing. Maybe our personal definition is different and perhaps we should leave it at that.

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Old
03-06-2005, 02:10 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
And that can be said for the same thing about Ovechkin or even Crosby, but there is any doubt that these guys will not be proven players if not stars? Even better yet would you not say that they are proven prospects, because I'll go back to my little "game" you think I'm playing and say again that if they are not proven prospects then is their so such thing. Maybe our personal definition is different and perhaps we should leave it at that.
*coughDaiglecough*

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03-06-2005, 02:12 PM
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
This was after Iginla's 2002 Art Ross and Maurice Richard season. Craig Button said Iginla for Gagne, Wiilliams and Pitkanan, Clarke said kick in Conroy and the deal was scrapped.

In my eyes,
Williams = Conroy (or >)
Gagne + Pitkanan = Iginla

That seems to be the bottum line for me.

Ironic that you and your fellow NJ fans are calling "us" Flame fans dilusional and whatnot and saying all of us should get slapped in the mouth, when the "us" happens to include Av, Canuck and Isles fans. To be honest, I think things go around the other way. Nobody here is undervaluing Elias and Parise, the thing that you don't seem to get is how much value arguably the best (as said by a few including Bob MacKenzie) player in the NHL.
Uh, who said that , I know I said mornic and I'll stand by that, and when did I ever single out Flames fans, when??? And when you say Iginla value is worth is equal to both Elais and Parise, then I can safely say your most definity undervaluing them.

By the way I think to see what Flyers fans think about your equation of Iginla to Gagne and Pitkanan.

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03-06-2005, 02:13 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
And that can be said for the same thing about Ovechkin or even Crosby, but there is any doubt that these guys will not be proven players if not stars?
Yes. Replace those names with Daigle and Fogarty and see how well your statement holds up. Just because they're prized picks doesn't mean a thing.

Quote:
Even better yet would you not say that they are proven prospects, because I'll go back to my little "game" you think I'm playing and say again that if they are not proven prospects then is their so such thing. Maybe our personal definition is different and perhaps we should leave it at that.
TINSAAPP!

Until you prove yourself in the pros, you're not proven.

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03-06-2005, 02:14 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
*coughDaiglecough*
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=2...&postcount=197

Last sentence please.

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Old
03-06-2005, 02:15 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
Yeah, that post kind of made my head spin... proven pro, proven prospect, proven NHLer, proven this, this is that, that is this... uhh...

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03-06-2005, 02:16 PM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Love
Yes. Replace those names with Daigle and Fogarty and see how well your statement holds up. Just because they're prized picks doesn't mean a thing.


TINSAAPP!

Until you prove yourself in the pros, you're not proven.
Dude. I already said proven prospects can be busts, again my defintion is different it seems from others.

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Old
03-06-2005, 02:17 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
Dude. I already said proven prospects can be busts, again my defintion is different it seems from others.
Not in the post I replied to, so I didn't see that.

And what do you define as a proven prospect?

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03-06-2005, 02:18 PM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou is God
By the way I think to see what Flyers fans think about your equation of Iginla to Gagne and Pitkanan.
Why does it matter what Flyer fans think? They probably think it sucks, because it guts their team. Neither the less, that seems to be the market value for Jarome Iginla.

Just like this thread. It's gone up for over 200 posts when I summarized it in post 20 or so that any deal involving Iginla would gut a team, but thats the cost. Same deal with Elias and Parise. Thats the cost, and I personally don't think its worth it to NJ to gut their team to aquire Jarome Iginla.

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03-06-2005, 02:20 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Yeah, that post kind of made my head spin... proven pro, proven prospect, proven NHLer, proven this, this is that, that is this... uhh...
Damn dude, when did I ever say proven pro?!?!? Because if you look at it Parise is a proven pro(AHL). Proven prospect, proven NHL player! Get it right!! :mad:

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03-06-2005, 02:21 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Why does it matter what Flyer fans think? They probably think it sucks, because it guts their team. Neither the less, that seems to be the market value for Jarome Iginla.
I think it's fair value, but I wouldn't do it because it doesn't mesh with the roster situation of the Flyers. There isn't anyone in the system to fill Pitkanen's shoes, and with Carter and Richards they should be fine at forward. Again, it's fair value, but considering the Flyers situation, I'd rather not.

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03-06-2005, 02:22 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Dr Love
Not in the post I replied to, so I didn't see that.

And what do you define as a proven prospect?
One who proves his worth at every level till the NHL, then it's up to see if he can prove himself as a NHL player.

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Old
03-06-2005, 02:23 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
One who proves his worth at every level till the NHL, then it's up to see if he can prove himself as a NHL player.
Okay, but then you've got to define a player's worth. His contract, if he's signed one? His draft position? His place in the organization? See how complicated this gets. Until you're producing/contributing for the NHL team, you're unproven.

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03-06-2005, 02:25 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Why does it matter what Flyer fans think? They probably think it sucks, because it guts their team. Neither the less, that seems to be the market value for Jarome Iginla.
Because I'm just curious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Just like this thread. It's gone up for over 200 posts when I summarized it in post 20 or so that any deal involving Iginla would gut a team, but thats the cost. Same deal with Elias and Parise. Thats the cost, and I personally don't think its worth it to NJ to gut their team to aquire Jarome Iginla.
I don't think we disagree with would either team do it or not, our disagreement is wether is a equal value trade, I say no, you say yes.

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03-06-2005, 02:38 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Dr Love
Okay, but then you've got to define a player's worth. His contract, if he's signed one? His draft position? His place in the organization? See how complicated this gets. Until you're producing/contributing for the NHL team, you're unproven.
Or it depends how one views success or not for hockey players, if one wants to judge one's success on just the NHL level than yeah you can say they are an unproven prospect, but if you want to judge a player based as a hockey player and how proven themselves at every level where they are considered a prospect but never had the makeup to make it to the next level but still are very fine hockey players than I think it's fair to say that they have proven themselves as a prospect, even if they could never prove themselves as a NHL player.

There have been a ton of career AHL and Euro league players who have been good hockey players, but for some reason not good enough.

Pleae let me have the last word on this, because just like Splatman Phanutier my head is now spinning too.

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03-06-2005, 02:43 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
Or it depends how one views success or not for hockey players, if one wants to judge one's success on just the NHL level than yeah you can say they are an unproven prospect, but if you want to judge a player based as a hockey player and how proven themselves at every level where they are considered a prospect but never had the makeup to make it to the next level but still are very fine hockey players than I think it's fair to say that they have proven themselves as a prospect, even if they could never prove themselves as a NHL player.

There have been a ton of career AHL and Euro league players who have been good hockey players, but for some reason not good enough.

Pleae let me have the last word on this, because just like Splatman Phanutier my head is now spinning too.
That's the gist of my point. Proven is subjective, but until they prove themselves in the NHL, you don't know. If you want to say that Parise, for example, is a proven prospect, fine by me, I'm not going to stop you. Me, I don't consider any player proven until he's holding his own at the highest level of competition.

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03-06-2005, 02:44 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Dr Love
That's the gist of my point. Proven is subjective, but until they prove themselves in the NHL, you don't know. If you want to say that Parise, for example, is a proven prospect, fine by me, I'm not going to stop you. Me, I don't consider any player proven until he's holding his own at the highest level of competition.
Fair enough.

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03-06-2005, 02:45 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Lou is God
Fair enough.
That's it? You're terrible at continuing intelligent conversation.

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03-06-2005, 02:55 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Dr Love
That's it? You're terrible at continuing intelligent conversation.
Just not in the mood today, now where in the hell is my P.D.??? :mad:

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