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Kovalchuk, how much is too much?

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Old
05-16-2010, 06:40 PM
  #51
Telos
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Sharp.

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05-16-2010, 06:43 PM
  #52
The Black1963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Ludicrous. They won't lose Niemi.
How is that Ludicrous? They already have Huet at over $5 mil. You really think that if someone offered Niemi $3 mil plus the hawx will match it?

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05-16-2010, 06:43 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telos View Post
Sharp.
Considering his salary is barely more than that of Versteeg, I can't see how Versteeg wouldn't be moved first.

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05-16-2010, 06:44 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Which hawx player would you be most interest in?

Sharp at $4 mil
Versteeg at $3 mil
Byfuglien at $3 mil
Hossa at $5 mil
Sharp, Versteeg and Byfuglien are the only ones on the block.

I'd take Sharp.

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05-16-2010, 06:46 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
How is that Ludicrous? They already have Huet at over $5 mil. You really think that if someone offered Niemi $3 mil plus the hawx will match it?
Absolutely.

I don't know how, but they will figure something out. They aren't about to let go the only goalie they trust, regardless of how much Huet makes. They'll sooner bury him in the minors than move forward with him as their #1.

Time and again teams have proven they can maneuver around the cap to keep or get the players they want, and yet people keep assuming that teams will keep worse players rather than resign better ones because of cap trouble. Trades will be made. People like Huet and Sopel will be relegated.

Sure, they will likely have to lose one or two of Sharp, Byfuglien, Vertsteeg, but they would be monumentally stupid to not trade away their forward depth in order to keep the only good goalie they have.

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05-16-2010, 06:47 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
Sharp, Versteeg and Byfuglien are the only ones on the block.

I'd take Sharp.
What makes you so sure that they won't move Hossa and his salary?

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05-16-2010, 06:48 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
What makes you so sure that they won't move Hossa and his salary?
Ummmm... because he is better than the other three.

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05-16-2010, 06:52 PM
  #58
The Black1963
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Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Absolutely.

I don't know how, but they will figure something out. They aren't about to let go the only goalie they trust, regardless of how much Huet makes. They'll sooner bury him in the minors than move forward with him as their #1.

Time and again teams have proven they can maneuver around the cap to keep or get the players they want, and yet people keep assuming that teams will keep worse players rather than resign better ones because of cap trouble. Trades will be made. People like Huet and Sopel will be relegated.

Sure, they will likely have to lose one or two of Sharp, Byfuglien, Vertsteeg, but they would be monumentally stupid to not trade away their forward depth in order to keep the only good goalie they have.
Niemi really hasn't proved he's a legit #1, so, I don't think he's a lock for the hawx. I'm sure the hawx will want to re-sign him. Just uncertain if they'll be able to.

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05-16-2010, 06:54 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Ummmm... because he is better than the other three.
Ummm, and more expensive.

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05-16-2010, 06:56 PM
  #60
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I don't believe Niemi has earned any significant raise so far. Either way, their goaltending is of primary concern moving forward. They will probably pay to dump Huet somewhere if Niemi earns the #1 spot. I don't think they are in any real dire trouble so far. I can't see them losing Niemi unless a better option presents itself.

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05-16-2010, 06:58 PM
  #61
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The Hawks can make a number of transactions not involving Hossa or Huet to remain under the cap and retain their upcoming RFAs.

Huet's contract expires in 2012, so they may just have to swallow the two remaining years or they can bury him in the minors. Sopel will likely be moved. I think two of Sharp, Versteeg and Byfuglien will also be moved. Moving two out of those three saves the Hawks over $6M. Add Sopel, they save over $8M.

They have 7 players who will be RFAs that they will look to re-sign and I think they will look at Jack Skille and Kyle Beach to step in and play a role next season, possibly replacing some of their higher paid forwards.

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05-16-2010, 07:01 PM
  #62
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All I'm saying in regards to Hossa is that if the hawx have the option of moving Sharp & Byfuglien or Hossa, they may opt for the latter.

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05-16-2010, 07:04 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Telos View Post
I don't believe Niemi has earned any significant raise so far. Either way, their goaltending is of primary concern moving forward. They will probably pay to dump Huet somewhere if Niemi earns the #1 spot. I don't think they are in any real dire trouble so far. I can't see them losing Niemi unless a better option presents itself.
Sounds reasonable.

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05-16-2010, 07:16 PM
  #64
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How did this thread turn into a Hawks cap discussion? This board.


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05-16-2010, 07:19 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
What makes you so sure that they won't move Hossa and his salary?
No one is gonna take it.

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05-16-2010, 07:25 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winston14 View Post
Kovy will go to LA..

The front office staff have already stated on a number of occasions that they will aressivley hunting down Kovy and if he dosn't want to play in LA they are going after Marleau!.

Great moves if either happen .. those are reliable sources..
I stopped believing internet rumors a long time ago.

Lindros, Drury, Briere, Chara, Havlat, Gaborik....all rumored to be Kings.

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05-16-2010, 07:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by riseandfall9 View Post
Some of you are delusional if you think that we can get Kovalchuk with 5 years 37 million and/or any number around 7 million. Im sure we could do it because every player in the league wants to play here right? And I am also sure that Kovalchuk wants to be paid less then Scott Gomez, Chris Drury and Brian Campbell JUST SPECIALLY TO BE IN LA WHERE HOCKEY IS AMAZING.

People with those numbers should already be preparing themselves to be seriously disappointed.

7 years 63 million is about right.
Well, I think it's delusional to give a player that hasn't proven jack in the playoffs much more than that, so there ya go. If Kovalchuk wants to play with the Kings he will take less money. If he wants more money then he is welcome to play somewhere else. I hope Lombardi feels that way.

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05-16-2010, 07:44 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I stopped believing internet rumors a long time ago.

Lindros, Drury, Briere, Chara, Havlat, Gaborik....all rumored to be Kings.
True enough.

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05-16-2010, 07:48 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Well, I think it's delusional to give a player that hasn't proven jack in the playoffs much more than that, so there ya go. If Kovalchuk wants to play with the Kings he will take less money. If he wants more money then he is welcome to play somewhere else. I hope Lombardi feels that way.
People are way too quick to point out that he hasn't proven jack in the playoffs. What has Ovechkin proved? What has Thornton proved? What has Dany Heatley proved? What has anyone that hasnt won a stanley cup proven in the playoffs? and all of them have played WAY more playoff hockey then Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk has played what a total of 10 games in the playoffs?

I think that Kovalchuk has a better chance of playing well in the playoffs then going the opposite way. Even if Kovalchuk was playoffs proven you wouldnt want to give him 9 million either. You said it yourself that your not Sold on him.

I also think that in a same 5 game series he had 2 goals and 4 assists. Thats not bad. 1.2 points per game player in the 1 honest series he had. Thats better then Handzus`s point production in the playoffs and everyone was head over heels happy with Handzus. Also... He has 8 points in 9 playoff games. And he out pointed all the Playoff Proven production guys on the Devils like Elias and Parise to name a few. And I hope their was some people who watched the Devils series. He was playing great. He was doing a lot of great things in hostile environments.

Ive said it once and Ill say it again. Having Kovalchuk makes Kopitar a 100 point player. Makes Doughty a 70+ d-man. And who knows who else his presence on the team helps. Yeah..Hes Russian but hes not a Cancer. He never has been. He never took the easy route out of Atlanta. He never asked for Trades. He never had problems with Coaches or Teammates. He was a captain for a reason and I have YET to find one player question his character or skills.



At the very least...Kovalchuk will be a player that can help us put ourselves in the playoffs every year and still have good production in the playoffs and help the core of our team grow and prosper.


Last edited by riseandfall9: 05-16-2010 at 07:58 PM.
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Old
05-16-2010, 07:51 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
Comparing the Kings to the Chicago situation is just dumb.

Top 4 Forwards:
(Hawks)
Kane
Toews
Hossa
Sharp
Total: $21.7M

Kings:
Kopitar
Smyth
Stoll
Brown
Total: $19.7M

Top 4 D-Man
Keith
Campbell
Seabrook
Sopel
Total: $18.5M


Doughty
Scuderi
JJ
Greene
Total: $13.1M

Goaltenders:
Huet
Niemi(ARB Eligible)
Total: $9M(Estimate)

Quick
Bernier
Total: $2.6M


EDIT: Thought Seabrook was traded.

Basically what i'm saying is retaining the young guys with Kovalchuk is doable, as long as DL locks up Simmonds etc. before they break out, and don't make any dumb signings(I.E Campbell)

So, lets continue on with the math.

Based on what you've posted you have chicago's top 4 forwards coming in at $21.7m.
You have us coming in at $19.7m.

Lets take our $19.7m per for our top 4.

Now lets take away Stoll''s $3.5m and lower our total to $16.2m

Now lets ad Kovy's $8mper.

Our total for our top four forwards now comes to $24.2m per (approx).


Now on to the defence.

Based on your numbers Chicago's total top four D = $18.5m per
You have us at $13.1m per

Now lets add DD and JMFJ's salaries with their logical approximate raises.

DD is a once in a generation Dman, period. He is worth and will receive a salary that will be set up to reflect this and I would guess that it will be in the $7m per year range.

But lets go with him only receiving $6.5 per for ten years, that gives him a raise up from $3.475m per adding $3.25m per to your totals.

With DD's raise we climb up to $16.125.

Now lets address JMFJ who will also receive a substantial raise. His $1.25m per was a steal in many ways but also seemed to have a positive impact on JJ's play, we won't get that lucky again.

I see him as getting in the mid $4m per (if we can convince him to sign here) and I am likely under valuing what his salary will be. So I will add his projected cap hit to be a reasonable $4.25m per. Bringing us up by $3m per.

Making our top 4 d total up to an approximate $19.125m per.

Now of course these are approximations but no matter how you argue it, I am at least in the ballpark.

Bringing our combined totals (of our top 8 players, not including goalies) to $43.325m per.

Chicago's top 8 totals come to an established (as of today) $40.2000.

Now, if we are lucky and Berneir pans out to be the goalie that we all believe that he will and we keep JQ, I think it safe to estimate that we will end up paying somewhere near what Chicago pays per year for their netminders. You have them at an estimated $9m per.

Lets put us at a thrifty $7.5m per (Chicago well over payed for Heut).

Bringing us, with our two goalies and our top 8 players to a grand total of $50.825m per.

Chicago with their top 8 and two goalies come out to a total of $49.2m per.

So, yes, its true that we are a full $1.635m per higher than Chicago in comparing our teams top 8 players and goalies, but I would hardly call it a "silly" comparison.


In addition, your using Chicago as an argument to show that we "can" afford to sign Kovy and keep our players is severely flawed in my opinion.

If you want to know why lets re-visit this debate before the start of next season and see what Chicago's line up looks like.

Its a safe bet to say that they will lose one or all of Buffaloglyn, Versteeg and Sharp.

They can't afford to keep these excellent young players and will have to deal them for picks and or lesser talented replacements.

Sure, we can sign Kovy but don't kid yourself into thinking that we will keep the Simmonds, Schenns and Hickeys of our team if we do.

Just do the math.

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05-16-2010, 08:08 PM
  #71
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First off, DL will NEVER tie up 8-9M in Goaltenders. Once one proves they are worth $5M, the other will be traded. Second, it looking more and more like their won't be a spot for Hickey. Voynov and Martinez have dramatically outplayed him(yes I know he's been hurt). Over the next 3 years their will only be one D Spot open(Doughty, Scuds, JJ, Greene, Wiske,____ and Harrold). Their aren't exactly a bunch of spots for the young D-Men. Schenn for the first 3 years will be cheaper than Stoll, as long as DL does it sooner rather than later Simmonds will be locked up fairly cheap. What you seem to be forgetting is over the next 2 years $17M will come off the books.

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05-16-2010, 08:09 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
It has nothing to do with Hossa's contract of 5.5 on the cap hit. We may be able to keep 2 of 3 with that money, who knows. The problem for the Hawks are Huet and then Campbell.

Ha, you don't get to chose which players dollars count against your cap hit.

Hossa is part of your total, when you lose players this summer, do you think it will be Huet and Campbell? If so, do you think that ANY other team in the league will take them for what you are paying for them? I find it truly and very highly doubtful.

The Hawks are going to lose talented young players that they want to keep because of their over spending. That is the point.

Do we want Kovy (Hossa) or do we want Schenn Simmonds and Hickey Voynov Loktionov Moller Tuebert etc etc etc.

The point is that do we want to tie up a ton of money in one player or spread it around among our own talented home grown core players and then add where we can and need to by finding the best fit in the UFA market.

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05-16-2010, 08:11 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Ha, you don't get to chose which players dollars count against your cap hit.

Hossa is part of your total, when you lose players this summer, do you think it will be Huet and Campbell? If so, do you think that ANY other team in the league will take them for what you are paying for them? I find it truly and very highly doubtful.

The Hawks are going to lose talented young players that they want to keep because of their over spending. That is the point.

Do we want Kovy (Hossa) or do we want Schenn Simmonds and Hickey Voynov Loktionov Moller Tuebert etc etc etc.

The point is that do we want to tie up a ton of money in one player or spread it around among our own talented home grown core players and then add where we can and need to by finding the best fit in the UFA market.
They would bury Huet in the minors before they lose good, young talent.

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05-16-2010, 08:12 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
I stopped believing internet rumors a long time ago.

Lindros, Drury, Briere, Chara, Havlat, Gaborik....all rumored to be Kings.
Lindros was rumored to be coming here twice, wasn't he? Once from Philly and once from Dallas I believe. That torch he was passed by Mario, Wayne and Gordie sure went out fast.

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05-16-2010, 08:12 PM
  #75
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6 years @ 7.5 cap hit structured so his high pay years fall after Smyth's and Handzus contract, maybe Stolls too, are off the books

this way both he and kopitar are signed together for a good long while.

Cap is likely to increase by 1-2 million, making it that much easier to sign core players.

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