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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Switzerland at the 2010 World Championship

View Poll Results: What will be Switzerland's ranking in this WC ?
World Champion 7 12.50%
World Vice Champion 1 1.79%
3rd 9 16.07%
4th 5 8.93%
5th 4 7.14%
6th 7 12.50%
7th 13 23.21%
8th 10 17.86%
beyond 2 3.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-18-2010, 09:14 AM
  #76
ts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koh19 View Post
I don't want to offend you but you must not follow hockey a lot and must not have a lot of knowledge on the subject. There are thousands of guys like Ambuhl in Juniors and in the AHL?!?!?! That's absolutely not true. The guy was misused, simple as that. You'll see, the same thing will happen with Zucharello if he signs with the Rangers. You don't put a world class player on the 4th line with goons and checkers when the guy is a world class player.

How can you possibly say that there are thousands of players like him in Juniors and the AHL?!?! The guy has won swiss championships, spengler cups, played tremendously at the Olympics (on NA ice!), is having awesome world championships, he's one of the most dynamic players in the tournament, he can hit, score, pass, agitate.

Did you even watch him play in Hartford? I did and it was obvious he couldn't have success. I know that the players New York drafted and that have been in the system a few years should have the edge over free agent signings when it comes to line combinations but putting Ambuhl on the 4th line has no sense whatsoever. Playing 6 shifts a night and playing with guys that barely know how to skate (exaggerating here) was a recipe for disaster from the get go.
A WORLD CLASS player? Sorry, but what's your definition of established top line payers in the NHL then? Uber-World Class?

Ambühl is certainly better than a checking forward in the AHL but if he can't win a top six spot in the AHL, misused or not, he won't get a shot at the top six in the big club. We're talking about a veteran here, not about a recently drafted junior. And he dind't come close to the numbers of an even average 2-way-AHL forward.

Right now Ambühl looks licke Michael Hackert did in he AHL (Oh I know he's much better than Hackert, but he didn't show it)

Edit: to make it clear, I think Ambuhl could play in the NHL at least as a reserve forward, most likely as a winger on the 3rd line. But he needs to show it, even from the 4th line.

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05-18-2010, 10:00 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
Sorry to burst your bubble, but i don't think there are thousands guys like Ambuhl in the AHL, if Ambuhl is used properly and can crack a roster at AHL level, i see no reason of him of not making an NHL team.

By going to your logic, there are thousand of guys who are as good as Tavares, Duchenne, Martin St-Louis and others and still those guys don't deserve to be in the NHL?

During the WHC, against Canada, Ambuhl outperformed the like Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos and other Canadian stars and to me, this deserved consideration for the NHL scouts to give him another chance for a contract in another NHL team.
You are not seriously comparing Ambühl to Tavares, Duchene and Stamkos are you? Oh my goodness.... they are all below 20 and already on a level that Ambühl won't ever reach....

@Koh
I'm not saying he's not a good hockey player, and even he could skillwise crack a roster - he won't - cause he's european and it's not like he is Marian Gaborik or Teemu Selanne - and he'll never be. That's why I simply don't see any NHL team give him a Top 6 spot. I'm not saying I don't want to see it - I'm swiss and therefore a fan like you guys - I just don't see it happen if I'm staying realistic. Period.

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05-18-2010, 10:03 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by ts View Post
A WORLD CLASS player? Sorry, but what's your definition of established top line payers in the NHL then? Uber-World Class?

Ambühl is certainly better than a checking forward in the AHL but if he can't win a top six spot in the AHL, misused or not, he won't get a shot at the top six in the big club. We're talking about a veteran here, not about a recently drafted junior. And he dind't come close to the numbers of an even average 2-way-AHL forward.

Right now Ambühl looks licke Michael Hackert did in he AHL (Oh I know he's much better than Hackert, but he didn't show it)

Edit: to make it clear, I think Ambuhl could play in the NHL at least as a reserve forward, most likely as a winger on the 3rd line. But he needs to show it, even from the 4th line.
Thank you. Some support from a neutral point of view without swiss glasses.

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Old
05-19-2010, 12:36 AM
  #79
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How has Nino looked?

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05-19-2010, 01:09 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
How has Nino looked?
I think he has just played the first 3 games. He had a checking role. He was hitting everybody, but in the offense he wasn't able to create much.

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05-19-2010, 01:25 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by WeberStreit View Post
I think he has just played the first 3 games.
He played the first two games. The first with 7 mins, the second with 13 mins.
Statistically, the IIHF has listed also the Games he was 13th Forward.
I'd love to see more of him but maybe he's just too unexperienced in Simpsons opinion.
Yes, he hasn't produced much but you can't judge a player by his first 20 min in a national team.

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05-19-2010, 02:47 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ts View Post
A WORLD CLASS player? Sorry, but what's your definition of established top line payers in the NHL then? Uber-World Class?

Ambühl is certainly better than a checking forward in the AHL but if he can't win a top six spot in the AHL, misused or not, he won't get a shot at the top six in the big club. We're talking about a veteran here, not about a recently drafted junior. And he dind't come close to the numbers of an even average 2-way-AHL forward.

Right now Ambühl looks licke Michael Hackert did in he AHL (Oh I know he's much better than Hackert, but he didn't show it)

Edit: to make it clear, I think Ambuhl could play in the NHL at least as a reserve forward, most likely as a winger on the 3rd line. But he needs to show it, even from the 4th line.
Quote:
You are not seriously comparing Ambühl to Tavares, Duchene and Stamkos are you? Oh my goodness.... they are all below 20 and already on a level that Ambühl won't ever reach....

@Koh
I'm not saying he's not a good hockey player, and even he could skillwise crack a roster - he won't - cause he's european and it's not like he is Marian Gaborik or Teemu Selanne - and he'll never be. That's why I simply don't see any NHL team give him a Top 6 spot. I'm not saying I don't want to see it - I'm swiss and therefore a fan like you guys - I just don't see it happen if I'm staying realistic. Period.
You're both showing ignorance about the Swiss Players right here...

Handlanger your showing your arrogance to how N.A. operate and why this league is extemely conservatism, there are many team that could give him a top 6 spot specially the lower teams to Oiler until Atlanta, Ambuhl can crack those rosters.

ts your fooling yourself when you talk it doesn't matter if Ambuhl has been misused or not, it does matter and it show that the Rangers didn't need him but gave it a contract despite his age,the rangers simply screw him over and over again.

Ambuhl need to find a team that need him. Plain simple.

Oh by the way, Ambuhl > Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos

Let's see how many points those 3 will amass if they ever play in the last line averaging 6-10 min of plays, they won't look like superstar anymore...

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05-19-2010, 03:26 AM
  #83
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Andres Ambuhl at the Ranger's farm team

I watched some 5 to 7 games.

When you saw Ambuhl playing their, it was so obvious that he was above the others. He was faster, had a brighter thinking, better stick handling and superior vision. Superior in many fields to ALL players around him. And he was alone in what he was doing, not matching the team ... or the team not matching him.

Their are not 100 of players like him in AHL.

Yet to give you right he scored a ridiculous low number of points and most of the moves he initiated lead nowhere.

It is a team game and you have to have size to impose a game. This he couldn't due !
In fact i cannot argue their because something was missing ... and since i never played hockey ... i cannot argue.

The clash of mentality that is taking place here. on one side the conventional wisdom static thinker who is right because Ambuhl scored little, and the inovative whishfull thinker who is right because Ambuhl has all assets to do waaaayyy better than he did with the Rangers' farm team.

If i was Ambuhl, he still is young !, i would have tried another team. And if it doesn't work, another country.Sweden or Russia. I wouldn't give up. It is a pitty he signed with a swiss club. I am happy to see him in the NLA next year because he will be a net addition in the global talent that is in LNA but it will set a cap to his carreer.

++

IMHO, we, as Swiss have to understand a great difference between North America and Switzerland. In Switzerland, the number of players is low, therefore a team will be built to do the best with what you have. In North America, their is such an abundance of players that they have their system and take players to fill the gaps. (not talking about superstars). The North American coach doesn't have the flexibility that the Swiss coach has (swiss ... ha ha ha ... many are foreigners .... but coaching in Switzerland). In fact the Ambuhl situation remembers me the situation with Simon Gamache at the Mapple leafs. While he obviously had the talent to score if he was environed with better players, they did nothing, watched him doing nothing, and put him back into the 3rd line, then the 4th line and finally farm team. He ended up in Bern again. Very little effort was made to accomodate a player with potential. He has to prove or die.


Last edited by torero: 05-19-2010 at 03:38 AM.
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05-19-2010, 03:39 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
Oh by the way, Ambuhl > Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos
I like Ambühl, think he's worth a lot more than what his past season's stats show, and even think he could be a bottom line player in the NHL, but come on... you're not exactly helping your case with such statements.

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05-19-2010, 03:41 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
You're both showing ignorance about the Swiss Players right here...

Handlanger your showing your arrogance to how N.A. operate and why this league is extemely conservatism, there are many team that could give him a top 6 spot specially the lower teams to Oiler until Atlanta, Ambuhl can crack those rosters.

ts your fooling yourself when you talk it doesn't matter if Ambuhl has been misused or not, it does matter and it show that the Rangers didn't need him but gave it a contract despite his age,the rangers simply screw him over and over again.

Ambuhl need to find a team that need him. Plain simple.

Oh by the way, Ambuhl > Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos

Let's see how many points those 3 will amass if they ever play in the last line averaging 6-10 min of plays, they won't look like superstar anymore...:laug:
Oh sorry for my ignorance about Swiss hockey, how dare I to have another point of view than you?

But who's fooling himself here?
Ambühl > a rookie who's already established as a top six forward in the best league in the world and even better than one of the best goal scorers in the NHL right now? WOW, talk about homerism

Did Ambuhl get the same chances as these guys? No.

But Ambuhl needs to showcase himself, even with his limited minutes. He needs to convince his coach that he earns more minutes in the AHL, they won't be handed to him as he's a veteran and nobody recognices him as a future cornerstone of his NHL team.
Right now he couldn't do this.

I don't know if he couldn't do it because he didn't show enough or because his coach is a stubborn who dislikes him that strong that he will never get a propper chance.
But in the end it doesn't matter for Ambühl, not because it doesn't effect his game, but because the GM's of NHL teams won't care. There are tons of guys who are stuck in situations where they don't get a chance to show their real potential. A 26 year veteran playing the 4th line in the AHL won't get any attention of a GM.

Edit: The ignorance about Swiss hockey part angers me. To make that clear, I have seen plenty of NLA hockey over the years, more than DEL as I lived in south-western Germany and we got Swiss TV. And I've been to severals games of the HCD as I visited Davos nearly every year till 2007 (mostly friendship games in preparation for the next season, but still). So it's not like I haven't seen Ambühl, I'd be thrilled to have Amühl on the DEB team. I just think, Ambühl didn't help his cause with his bad year in the AHL and don't share your optimism/homerism about him.


Last edited by ts: 05-19-2010 at 04:07 AM.
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05-19-2010, 03:42 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
IMHO, we, as Swiss have to understand a great difference between North America and Switzerland. In Switzerland, the number of players is low, therefore a team will be built to do the best with what you have. In North America, their is such an abundance of players that they have their system and take players to fill the gaps. (not talking about superstars). The North American coach doesn't have the flexibility that the Swiss coach has (swiss ... ha ha ha ... many are foreigners .... but coaching in Switzerland). In fact the Ambuhl situation remembers me the situation with Simon Gamache at the Mapple leafs. While he obviously had the talent to score if he was environed with better players, they did nothing, watched him doing nothing, and put him back into the 3rd line, then the 4th line and finally farm team. He ended up in Bern again. Very little effort was made to accomodate a player with potential. He has to prove or die.
You can't exactly compare Ambühl with Gamache. While Gamache is an offense only player and doesn't fit on an NHL 3rd or 4th line, Ambühl would probably be used as a defensive or energy line player if he ever makes it to the NHL. Remember that he was essentially a defensive player for Davos until the 2008-09 season, and a pretty good one.

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05-19-2010, 05:41 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by stv11 View Post
You can't exactly compare Ambühl with Gamache. While Gamache is an offense only player and doesn't fit on an NHL 3rd or 4th line, Ambühl would probably be used as a defensive or energy line player if he ever makes it to the NHL. Remember that he was essentially a defensive player for Davos until the 2008-09 season, and a pretty good one.
Thanks for these interesting differentiations.
Yet I am not comparing Ambuhl and Gamache, i am comparing their situation, not the players. as guys that had the talent withouth results in North America, and little was made to transform this talent into points. They almost just watched the player not delivering and moved him down the ladder. (with Ambuhl, more was tried, hi did well in the olympics and straight after this, he had some shots at the top line ... without success)


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05-19-2010, 05:50 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post

the rangers simply screw him over and over again.

Ambuhl need to find a team that need him. Plain simple.
The rangers did not do all they could, but in their North American mentality, he is a player among 100's, so why should they care and question their conception of hockey ? You, as a Swiss see him as unique ! (and so do I !)

He definitely needs to find a team he fits into. and he will flourish.

"the most beautifull flour is the one that blossom in adversity". from and unknow chinese philosopher.

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05-19-2010, 07:44 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
Oh by the way, Ambuhl > Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos

Let's see how many points those 3 will amass if they ever play in the last line averaging 6-10 min of plays, they won't look like superstar anymore...:
Do you realize that you are essentially saying that some guy no one has ever heard of, that couldn't even hack it in the AHL, is one of the five or ten best hockey players on planet Earth?

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05-19-2010, 08:06 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Do you realize that you are essentially saying that some guy no one has ever heard of, that couldn't even hack it in the AHL, is one of the five or ten best hockey players on planet Earth?
Firstly. I am pretty sure he is talking about in this tournament. Point per minute wise it should be interesting to see...

Secondly... No one has ever heard of?

I bet almost every european poster here knew who Ambuhl was before this tournament..

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05-19-2010, 09:36 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by TheNextOneX View Post
You're both showing ignorance about the Swiss Players right here...

Handlanger your showing your arrogance to how N.A. operate and why this league is extemely conservatism, there are many team that could give him a top 6 spot specially the lower teams to Oiler until Atlanta, Ambuhl can crack those rosters.

ts your fooling yourself when you talk it doesn't matter if Ambuhl has been misused or not, it does matter and it show that the Rangers didn't need him but gave it a contract despite his age,the rangers simply screw him over and over again.

Ambuhl need to find a team that need him. Plain simple.

Oh by the way, Ambuhl > Tavares, Duchenne, Stamkos

Let's see how many points those 3 will amass if they ever play in the last line averaging 6-10 min of plays, they won't look like superstar anymore...
I'm not ignorant. I'm a born and raised Swiss and very proud of my country. I'd love to see more swiss NHL players, also Ambühl. BUT, I'm a realistic person, and from that point of view, it's simply not going to happen. Also not on the Oilers and Atlanta, the Oilers already have plenty of small fast forwards in Ganger, Cogliano, Hemsky, and so on. Atlanta as well with Bergfors and Peverley. All of them are simply better players than Ambühl.

And Ambühl > Tavares, Duchene, Stamkos?!?!!!???
Seriously man, that's ridiculous. Simply ridiculous.

I understand that you must be a huge Ambühl fan, or have no idea of hockey at all to say that. I like Ambühl as a player and I personally think he's one of the best Swiss forwards, but better than all these guys - no way.

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05-19-2010, 09:38 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by torero View Post
The rangers did not do all they could, but in their North American mentality, he is a player among 100's, so why should they care and question their conception of hockey ? You, as a Swiss see him as unique ! (and so do I !)

He definitely needs to find a team he fits into. and he will flourish.

"the most beautifull flour is the one that blossom in adversity". from and unknow chinese philosopher.
Exactly Torero. That's all I'm saying all the time. But the other guy thinks I'm trying to bash Ambühl.

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05-19-2010, 04:37 PM
  #93
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I've always thought of Ambühl as a guy who's got it all except playing intelligence.

On a good night he dances and stickhandles smoothly like a russian, sends out canadien style hits, and fights hard all over the ice against much bigger competition like the finns liked to play

On a bad night he plays the ulltimate horror combination of a bad night Semin/Afinogenov hybrid. He stickhandles himself desperately into an undangerous zone, turnes the puck over or loses it and finally gets a stupid stick penalty on the way back. (even on NLA niveau)

So he relies heavily on smart partners (like Brunner and Monnet), who can read his game and adjust, he creates a lot of hustle.


I think he's got the upside of a 2nd Line Winger on NHL-Level, and only 2nd Line (he plays too risky for a 3rd or 4th line role). But I'm not sure, If he scores enough.

Let's hope and see!

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05-19-2010, 05:03 PM
  #94
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Hello to all of you! I just stopped by to congratulate you on your success this tournament and let you know you played a terrific game against us. If it weren't for Markström, that would have been a lot closer than it was. Cheers!
Quote:
Originally Posted by swissexpert View Post
Oh yes, he's just a shadow of himself.

Following players were on the swiss roster recently, so Simpson ranks it as follows:

Hiller- Not allowed by the Ducks
Gerber- WC squad
Stephan- WC squad
Manzato- WC squad
Genoni- didn't make the last cut for WC
Rüeger- made tte roster for exhibition games
Bührer- made the roster for exhibition games
Bäumle- made the roster for exhibition games
Flüeler- made the roster for exhibition games

So I'd call Abby Switzerland's Nr. 10, as sad as it is.
And young swiss goaltenders like Berra, Mayer and Conz will soon reach Aebischer's level IMO.
That's pretty brutal to hear, IMO. I liked Abby.

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05-19-2010, 11:27 PM
  #95
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Do you realize that you are essentially saying that some guy no one has ever heard of, that couldn't even hack it in the AHL, is one of the five or ten best hockey players on planet Earth?
That dude's statement about Ambuehl vs. Stamkos, Duchene, Tavares is absolutely ridiculous indeed...BUT when you say "some guy no one has ever heard of", you are just confirming what any European hockey fans knows: on average, NA hockey fans know more or less zero about what happens beyond the NHL.
I personally wouldn't go around flaunting ignorance, if I was in your shoes.

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05-20-2010, 05:35 AM
  #96
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I think he's got the upside of a 2nd Line Winger on NHL-Level, and only 2nd Line (he plays too risky for a 3rd or 4th line role). But I'm not sure, If he scores enough.
I don't agree with that, Ambühl was mostly used as a defensive player by Krueger and did well at that. He could be an efficient energy line player if playing with another quick winger and a smart defensive center, like when he played with Guggisberg and Rizzi.

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