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Old
05-24-2010, 02:44 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSquid View Post
To Montreal: Backes + Berglund + picks

To St-Louis: Price, Andrei and Sergei K + picks


Taylor Pyatt is a UFA this summer and can prolly sign him for under 1.5M

To Montreal: Wayne Simmonds + picks

To L.A: Hamrlik, Plekanec signing rights, + picks

Gionta - Gomez - Backes
Cammy - Berglund - Simmonds
TaylorPyatt - Moore - TomPyatt
Moen - Lapierre - Pacioretty

Markov - Emelin/Obyrn
Spacek - Subban
Gill - Georges

Obyrn/Carle

Halak/Veteran
Dont go public with this one!

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Old
05-24-2010, 02:50 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSquid View Post
To Montreal: Backes + Berglund + picks

To St-Louis: Price, Andrei and Sergei K + picks

Taylor Pyatt is a UFA this summer and can prolly sign him for under 1.5M

To Montreal: Wayne Simmonds + picks

To L.A: Hamrlik, Plekanec signing rights, + picks



Gionta - Gomez - Backes
Cammy - Berglund - Simmonds
TaylorPyatt - Moore - TomPyatt
Moen - Lapierre - Pacioretty

Markov - Emelin/Obyrn
Spacek - Subban
Gill - Georges

Obyrn/Carle

Halak/Veteran



edit: am I dreaming too much ?
I doubt the kings want another D-men.. Doughty , Johnson , greene , Scuderi are a pretty good top4 @ D.

I see the blues trade going but replace backes with perron since backes is the guy around who their gonna build and perron is a homekid with skills.

You are missing pouliot on your roster by the way and isn't backes a center?

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Old
05-24-2010, 02:56 PM
  #103
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The notion of bringing back Koivu is something I adore, given he is my favorite player and I still firmly believe how Gainey and the Montreal organization handled his departure was disgusting. Nonetheless the likelihood of his return to where he belongs, is a illusion. I cannot foresee either side agreeing to return, primarily due to Montreal having to concede to shortsightedness in order to do so. Furthermore I guarantee Plekanec is resigned, albeit if in the surprising alternative, we do venture elsewhere, Patrick Marleau is a possibility. I would fancy Brad Richards, who may be on his way out of Dallas however his contract is simply too much a burden because of Gomez.

That said, Price or Halak must be moved if we are to remedy of lack of size. They are our only assets teams will seek. The Kostitsyns are worthless in terms of value, Subban is going nowhere and none of our other prospects have proven anything at a NHL level. There are apparent rumors Setoguchi is on the block in San Jose. As a Sharks fan, I detest the notion of trading him however from a Habs' perspective, I would deal Price and Patches/Pick in a heartbeat to acquire him. Furthermore I would do Price for Clowe, albeit with San Jose offering slightly more to the pot, and no not Demers.

Hamrlik, get a third or forth pick for him and be thankful at that.

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Old
05-24-2010, 03:00 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecPride View Post
I doubt the kings want another D-men.. Doughty , Johnson , greene , Scuderi are a pretty good top4 @ D.

I see the blues trade going but replace backes with perron since backes is the guy around who their gonna build and perron is a homekid with skills.

You are missing pouliot on your roster by the way and isn't backes a center?
I'll give you that I might have wrote this quick But tweaking the trades a bit and let's say we ship Pouliot in 1 of those trades to make 1 possible, wouldn't Backes, Berglund, Pyatt and Simmonds be like THE guys to add ? In the perfect world I mean

Ok for Perron if they really don't wanna let Backes go. I honestly think Backes would be a better fit tho

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Old
05-24-2010, 03:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Lats was a loafer and played his way out of town.
He's a guy who played as well for Minnesota as he did under Carbo. The only stretch that he didn't play at that level was under Martin. Funny, I'm inclined to blame the variable, here.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
If Lats goes on to be the next John Leclair, good for him. It wasn't going to happen for him here. Some players need a good kick in the ass and he was one of them.
Again -- Carbo could make this guy produce at the same level. Guy Carbonneau, not exactly the geniusest coach in the league.

The entire discussion on Lats is based on the notion he's playing way better than he ever has for the Habs. That proposition is incorrect, so conclusions drawn from that are invalid.

Stop trying to make excuses for the deal. It was a bad trade. I realize Pouliot is one of your sacro-sanct top-5 picks, but he's a wasted pick at that level.

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05-24-2010, 03:00 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SniperSquid View Post
To Montreal: Backes + Berglund + picks

To St-Louis: Price, Andrei and Sergei K + picks

Taylor Pyatt is a UFA this summer and can prolly sign him for under 1.5M

To Montreal: Wayne Simmonds + picks

To L.A: Hamrlik, Plekanec signing rights, + picks

As for Emelin he supposedly signed with us or will do this summer. If any1 saw the Russia/Tcheque game yesterday, he did a legal awesome hip check to Jagr. This guy is a beast.



Gionta - Gomez - Backes
Cammy - Berglund - Simmonds
TaylorPyatt - Moore - TomPyatt
Moen - Lapierre - Pacioretty

Markov - Emelin/Obyrn
Spacek - Subban
Gill - Georges

Obyrn/Carle

Halak/Veteran



edit: am I dreaming too much ?
Dreaming so much you will in an alter universe mate. St. Louis would not trade any one of the players you mentioned for Price straight up, let alone for that horrendous package. Unfortunately we are not about to acquire much for the Kostitsyns due to Andrei being a first round buster and Sergei feuding with Martin on a relatively consistent basis. Furthermore LA has an abundance of prospect defenseman in their system and would have little use of Hamrlik. They had liable to contend for the cup in the near future and will not be seeking a salary dump.

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Old
05-24-2010, 03:06 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Wishful thinking? Why? You make it sound like what I said was groundbreaking.
Scouts do make mistakes, you know. Who do you think has the bigger ceiling: Subban, or McDonagh?

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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
I think it's OBVIOUS his ceiling is better. He's faster, has a better reach and a better release than Latendresse.
It's not obvious at all. Latendresse is stronger, much more physical, and has better hockey sense (something which is really keeping Pouliot from being all he can be BTW) and an excellent shot. More importantly, he's way ahead on results.

Yes, Pouliot is a faster skater, but the faster player is not always the best player, or the hardest-working.

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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
And the habs love for Pouliot game was well known already back then - so it's not like he was coming from the left field.
I didn't think the Habs had such a shortage of first-round disappointments that they felt the need to import them from other teams.

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Originally Posted by Goldthorpe View Post
Gainey had very good and reasonable reasons to go after Pouliot, and these reasons didn't change since then.
Let's set something straight here. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with trading for Pouliot, so long as you don't overpay. There's also nothing intrinsically wrong with trading away Latendresse -- I don't agree, but if he doesn't fit, then fair enough so long as you get roughly equivalent value.

Giving up Latendresse for Pouliot was far too much however. Minnesota got the better of that trade by far. Montreal may have had good reasons to go after Pouliot, but they overpaid. They may have had good reasons to deal Latendresse, but they got too little in return. That's what makes it a bad trade.

They are calling Lats "BTE" on Wild blogs. That's for "Best Trade Ever".

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Old
05-24-2010, 03:23 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Scouts do make mistakes, you know. Who do you think has the bigger ceiling: Subban, or McDonagh?



It's not obvious at all. Latendresse is stronger, much more physical, and has better hockey sense (something which is really keeping Pouliot from being all he can be BTW) and an excellent shot. More importantly, he's way ahead on results.

Yes, Pouliot is a faster skater, but the faster player is not always the best player, or the hardest-working.



I didn't think the Habs had such a shortage of first-round disappointments that they felt the need to import them from other teams.



Let's set something straight here. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with trading for Pouliot, so long as you don't overpay. There's also nothing intrinsically wrong with trading away Latendresse -- I don't agree, but if he doesn't fit, then fair enough so long as you get roughly equivalent value.

Giving up Latendresse for Pouliot was far too much however. Minnesota got the better of that trade by far. Montreal may have had good reasons to go after Pouliot, but they overpaid. They may have had good reasons to deal Latendresse, but they got too little in return. That's what makes it a bad trade.

They are calling Lats "BTE" on Wild blogs. That's for "Best Trade Ever".
Are you a montréal canadiens fan at all? All you seem to think about this team is that it's ******** and we will never win a cup anymore.

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Old
05-24-2010, 03:29 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Let's set something straight here. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with trading for Pouliot, so long as you don't overpay. There's also nothing intrinsically wrong with trading away Latendresse -- I don't agree, but if he doesn't fit, then fair enough so long as you get roughly equivalent value.

Giving up Latendresse for Pouliot was far too much however. Minnesota got the better of that trade by far. Montreal may have had good reasons to go after Pouliot, but they overpaid. They may have had good reasons to deal Latendresse, but they got too little in return. That's what makes it a bad trade.

They are calling Lats "BTE" on Wild blogs. That's for "Best Trade Ever".
Hate to break it to you mate, however we got the best value possible for Latendresse. The organization rushed him into the NHL and our inability to properly manage his needs, led to inconsistent results, none of which we can falter Lats for. Regardless, this does not alter the fact he was an inconsistent powerforward, who did not use his body effectively when playing in Montreal and amassed little productivity. Frankly, he was underachieving immensely, thus we acquired a similar problem child from Minnesota in the hopes both would excel in a new environment.

The result was indeed, poor coaching, not a career underachiever in Latendresse. This is, of course, under the assumption he continues to ignite the scoring lamp in Minnesota. Either way, we have not right to complain outside of bitterness that our return was underwhelming once his hot streak diminished. You cannot have had a more even trade, both players possess potential, one is simply living it finally, while the other has returned to his old form. Latendresse would never have commanded more than a Pouilot, not at the time of his trade.

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Old
05-24-2010, 04:39 PM
  #110
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haters can not accept it.

Latendresse>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pouliotte

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05-24-2010, 04:51 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Playmaker09 View Post
Send Gomez on a 4 year paid vacation to Mexico, sign Kovalcuk... Profit.

Kovalchuk - Pleks - Gio
Cammy - Pouliot - Kostitsyn

I'd like Kovalchuk, but who will pass the puck and create plays on the second line ? You got three snipers.

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Old
05-24-2010, 05:16 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by QuebecPride View Post
Are you a montréal canadiens fan at all? All you seem to think about this team is that it's ******** and we will never win a cup anymore.
I have a great deal of faith in the roster, but the team does have serious problems (ones I don't expect to get addressed for at least one year, probably two) and clunker trades like the Latendresse deal do not help. So, while I wish it weren't the case, I am not hopeful about the team's prospects for the next year or two.

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Hate to break it to you mate, however we got the best value possible for Latendresse.
Then they shouldn't have traded him.

The trade was a clear, obvious mistake when it happened, except that this board had so much irrational Latendresse hate that they couldn't actually look at the fact or the numbers. Irrational Latendresse hate of the "he will never score 20 goals" and "he is not a NHL player" variety now having been demonstrated as the embarrassing nonsense it was, the haters have fallen back to "he could never have done this in Montreal". News flash: he could have because, in his limited icetime, he already had.

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Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
Frankly, he was underachieving immensely,
He was not underachieving. He was producing as much as he is now in Minnesota. Except over there they give him PP time and more icetime. So the end totals are bigger.

There's no reason to believe he can't continue a scoring pace he's held for two years running now (factoring in icetime) and there's no reason to believe he couldn't have done it in Montreal with a bit of patience and competent coaching. I've said it last year, I said it before he was traded, and I say it now: Latendresse has never had any problems with Montreal that decent icetime wouldn't have solved.

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05-24-2010, 05:31 PM
  #113
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I like Lats too, but sometimes people don't fit in new work environment. That's just reality or life or whatever you want to call it. But yeah. I agree. Essentially. I'd would rather have Guy Boucher or Patrick Roy with Lats than Jacques Martin and Pouliot. But then Martin goes on winning his way, going to the Eastern Finals, and who knows what will happen even if we are trailing. It's not what I would have done if I were Gainey, but I can't really talk right now looking at the team's success.

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05-24-2010, 05:56 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Then they shouldn't have traded him.

The trade was a clear, obvious mistake when it happened, except that this board had so much irrational Latendresse hate that they couldn't actually look at the fact or the numbers. Irrational Latendresse hate of the "he will never score 20 goals" and "he is not a NHL player" variety now having been demonstrated as the embarrassing nonsense it was, the haters have fallen back to "he could never have done this in Montreal". News flash: he could have because, in his limited icetime, he already had.
Where were you when Pouilot was lighting the lamp like a maniac and this was the ideal trade? The trade appeared perfect, yet in hindsight Latendresse continued to flourish whereas Pouilot faltered. It was not irrational hatred, not from everyone. The primary complaint many of us held against Lats was his refusal to park his keyster in from of the net and mimic Ryan Smyth and in addition use his physical frame to impede the opposition. Lats had a horrid tendency to not conclude his checks and his lackluster speed resulted in a hindrance.

The belief he could never accomplish anything in Montreal in comparison to elsewhere is not unfounded. In contrast, there is evidence to support this essential fact: Expectations and our present system. These were two aspects which would forever ruin Lats in our organization. He was billed as the second coming of Rick Nash, the French wall. It was a ridiculous expectation to live up and one his abilities would nary allow. Lats himself had ceded the pressure in Montreal was immense, more so than he cared for. Furthermore the style Martin was attempting to implicate during the season was simply not something Lats bought into. It happens and he was subsequently moved.

Quote:
There's no reason to believe he can't continue a scoring pace he's held for two years running now (factoring in icetime) and there's no reason to believe he couldn't have done it in Montreal with a bit of patience and competent coaching. I've said it last year, I said it before he was traded, and I say it now: Latendresse has never had any problems with Montreal that decent icetime wouldn't have solved.
With the exception that he was allotted decent ice time on numerous occasions and still did not do what Montreal wanted him to. I agree wholeheartedly, he was rushed into this organization and ultimately mismanagement led to his clasp in a CH. That said, it does not alter reality, we desired a large physical body to get into the goalie crease and pick up the garbage goals. Lats did not do that. He spent frequent time with Koivu and still was horribly inconsistent.

This is mere speculation on you part, frustration more accurately speaking because by long term, Minnesota benefited more than we did. Lats was floundering in Montreal this season, and was moved. He would never have been traded for more. If Pouilot was producing in the playoffs, this conversation would not exist and we both know this.

Suck it up, the trade was good for Minnesota and as a fair minded hockey fan, I offer my congratulations to them. Both teams gambled, both appeared to hit a jackpot however ours was more a fluke. It happens.

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Old
05-24-2010, 07:36 PM
  #115
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I guess, we will see another busy July 1. I think we've seen the last moments of the Kost brothers and Hammer. I don't know about Pleks. The Habs probably will need to sign a new second line centerman.

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05-24-2010, 07:41 PM
  #116
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i know its hard and the teams these players play for problly wont trade them but they need to target guys like B.Ryan , D.Brown , D.Backes , N.Horton

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05-24-2010, 07:53 PM
  #117
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i know its hard and the teams these players play for problly wont trade them but they need to target guys like B.Ryan , D.Brown , D.Backes , N.Horton
Horton can be available. I would love it !
I ask to SJ Sharks fan what they want in our line-up for Ryan Clowe and it's Halak

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05-24-2010, 07:57 PM
  #118
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I have a great deal of faith in the roster, but the team does have serious problems (ones I don't expect to get addressed for at least one year, probably two) and clunker trades like the Latendresse deal do not help. So, while I wish it weren't the case, I am not hopeful about the team's prospects for the next year or two.



Then they shouldn't have traded him.

The trade was a clear, obvious mistake when it happened, except that this board had so much irrational Latendresse hate that they couldn't actually look at the fact or the numbers. Irrational Latendresse hate of the "he will never score 20 goals" and "he is not a NHL player" variety now having been demonstrated as the embarrassing nonsense it was, the haters have fallen back to "he could never have done this in Montreal". News flash: he could have because, in his limited icetime, he already had.



He was not underachieving. He was producing as much as he is now in Minnesota. Except over there they give him PP time and more icetime. So the end totals are bigger.

There's no reason to believe he can't continue a scoring pace he's held for two years running now (factoring in icetime) and there's no reason to believe he couldn't have done it in Montreal with a bit of patience and competent coaching. I've said it last year, I said it before he was traded, and I say it now: Latendresse has never had any problems with Montreal that decent icetime wouldn't have solved.
Latendresse stunk here in Montreal on most nights. Revisionist history from you my friend. Pouliot will be the better player, I 100% believe that.

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05-24-2010, 07:59 PM
  #119
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Latendresse is gone
let it go already
If he would've been willing to do what it takes, he still would've been here

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05-24-2010, 08:46 PM
  #120
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AKost and SKost have to go.

Hopefully if we package them together (possibly along with a prospect and/or a pick if needbe) we can get a good power forward in return for them. If we can get another good power forward for Price and/or Hammer, do it.


My max for Pleks is $3.75 million a year. Not a dollar more. If he'll take it, fine; his regular season play is worth it. Otherwise, let him go.

If Pleks goes we should make a real play for Marleau, imo.


Cammy - Pleks/Marleau - Power Foward 1

Power Forward 2 - Gomez - Gionta

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Old
05-24-2010, 08:50 PM
  #121
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I can see Matthew Lombardi taking a hometown discount to play here. He'll replace Plek unless he's willing to sign for less than 4m a season. Any further upgrades will depend on shedding some salary. Hamrlik seemed likely, but the Kostitsyns have played their way into the discussion.

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05-24-2010, 08:58 PM
  #122
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He's a guy who played as well for Minnesota as he did under Carbo. The only stretch that he didn't play at that level was under Martin. Funny, I'm inclined to blame the variable, here.



Again -- Carbo could make this guy produce at the same level. Guy Carbonneau, not exactly the geniusest coach in the league.

The entire discussion on Lats is based on the notion he's playing way better than he ever has for the Habs. That proposition is incorrect, so conclusions drawn from that are invalid.

Stop trying to make excuses for the deal. It was a bad trade. I realize Pouliot is one of your sacro-sanct top-5 picks, but he's a wasted pick at that level.
He never showed the kind of production that he showed this year with Carbo and he rode the bench numerous times for lack of heart. I couldn't care less if Poulliot produces. Lats needed a kick in the ass and that's what he got. He arrived in Minny and immediately produced, it certainly wasn't the coach who made that happen.

Again you make it sound like he was a superstar with Carbo and that wasn't the case. Your obsession with blaming Martin for everything is ridiculous ESP. Considering how far we went with the roster we had.

Anything goes wrong on this team and you scapegoat the coach. You give him zero credit though for anything that goes right.

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05-24-2010, 09:06 PM
  #123
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So most of you would trade:

A 22 year old goaltender for possibly a 2nd/3rd pick + ahler rather then
A 24 year old goaltender for possibly a 1st rnder or 2nd + top 6 forward

makes sense seeing how this team was shutout 3 out of 5 games in a single series. Makes complete sense when there is about only 3 guys on the roster that bring their game every night.

Who needs to be gone? 89% of the team starting with Markov. I have a 4-5 year window with any player. If you don't improve your results in that time frame it's time to start over.

Obviously people won't agree but I guess I'm not a fan of being mediocre or of players that do squat in the playoffs.

How anyone can think that the Habs had a successful season because we barely made the playoffs and beat 2 of the best teams in the league win a super hot goalie is obsurd.

The Habs have not been successful since the 70's when thy were contenders year in and year out.

The sport has changed and until the organisation understand that it shouldn't matter were you are from by how good you are the Habs won't win a cup for a long time. If it's for the fact that hey can't sign anyone because the taxes...make friends with a politician or get a new accountant.

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05-24-2010, 09:24 PM
  #124
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Where were you when Pouilot was lighting the lamp like a maniac and this was the ideal trade?
I said that it was lucky for the Habs that it did work out (against all rational hopes) and that we should pray that it continue, because the odds were better that Lats would keep it up than Pouliot would.

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The trade appeared perfect, yet in hindsight Latendresse continued to flourish whereas Pouilot faltered. It was not irrational hatred, not from everyone.
There was a ridiculous amount of irrational hate going around.

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The primary complaint many of us held against Lats was his refusal to park his keyster in from of the net and mimic Ryan Smyth and in addition use his physical frame to impede the opposition. Lats had a horrid tendency to not conclude his checks and his lackluster speed resulted in a hindrance.
And I kept complaining that this, which everyone insisted on, would make him a worse player. People wanted him to be Tomas Holmstrom and forgot that he is essentially a 20-goal scorer and PP specialist.

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Furthermore the style Martin was attempting to implicate during the season was simply not something Lats bought into. It happens and he was subsequently moved.
I'll give you that -- the coach does seem to have a knack for neutralizing his young players to the point where they get shipped out of Montreal.

Lats is hardly an isolated case, just the most glaring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne View Post
Suck it up, the trade was good for Minnesota and as a fair minded hockey fan, I offer my congratulations to them. Both teams gambled, both appeared to hit a jackpot however ours was more a fluke. It happens.
It happens, but it was eminently predictable. I called it the moment the trade happened. Others could have, too, but they did not want to look. Some of them were so glad to get rid of Lats they would have accepted a bag of pucks in trade.

Let's not act like this was a gamble and that the results are somehow surprising. What happened was exactly what the numbers and the rational deductions told us would happen. If anything, the Habs got lucky they got a good stretch out of Pouliot. We'll see if he can turn it around, but there's little in his history to tell us he can -- and certainly playing under Martin won't help.

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05-24-2010, 09:29 PM
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MathMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He never showed the kind of production that he showed this year with Carbo and he rode the bench numerous times for lack of heart.
Yes, he did. Scroll up. I posted Lats' per-icetime numbers. They're practically identical.

Lats did nothing for Minny that he could not have done with the Habs with more icetime last year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He arrived in Minny and immediately produced, it certainly wasn't the coach who made that happen.
LOL, then what could it be, I wonder?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again you make it sound like he was a superstar with Carbo and that wasn't the case.
He wasn't a superstar, but he was one of the team's best 5-on-5 scoring forwards -- and I made numerous posts demonstrating this fact, with stats and everything, long before Martin ever entered the picture. Nobody wanted to listen then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Your obsession with blaming Martin for everything is ridiculous ESP. Considering how far we went with the roster we had.
You mean considering how far the roster (especially Halak) and good fortune dragged his sorry carcass? This is a more talented club than its results showed.

He's not a complete loss, he's got some personnel management and matchup skills light-years ahead of what Carbo had, but he is a disaster with young players (Lats is but one example; the only kid he was able to make useful was Tom freakin' Pyatt and a bunch of them were shipped out to Hamilton or other teams so he could play AHL vets) and he has a system that'll never work well in post-lockout hockey. Make no mistake, Martin's system had no bearing on the Habs beating Washington and Pittsburgh. It was all about Halak surviving a holy bombardment that the Habs allowed because they were so passive.


Last edited by MathMan: 05-24-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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