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So...you still wanna fire Homer?

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Old
05-25-2010, 03:51 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Spongolium View Post
Some people just make me laugh. I bet if you were GM, the flyers would of already won the cup by now, we would have the worlds best prospects in the AHL, and the current team would all be under 21 and superstars.
People that start off their posts with hyperbolic ravings make me laugh.

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I just wish people would pull their heads out of their *****. The Pronger trade was certainly not a make or break trade. We dealt lupul ( an underacheiving winger) and signed lappy a fan favourite warrior, we lost sbisa, but gained one of the greatest defensemen of our time, and we lost two first round picks. Boo ****ing who.
The Pronger trade... was the definition of a make or break trade. They sold out for a middle-30s defenseman on the backside of his career. They literally do not get any more make or break than that deal.

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We are in the finals of the stanley cup. Let me ask you something, what would you prefere.

The greatest chance at the stanley cup the team has seen for almost 15 years, and two years filled with cap problems,

or a team without pronger, which probably would not of made the playoffs, and the same cap problems every single team in the league faces if it wants to compete.

Argh, some people
I want to win a Cup... not have a chance at a Cup. And it will be fantastic if we can win this series... but that doesn't mean Holmgren doesn't have liabilities that handicap this team going forward.

For example, Michael Leighton is pure ****ing dumb luck for Holmgren. If he hadn't of worked out, how awesome do you think Holmgren is today? Hell, this entire playoff run has enjoyed some extremely good luck... from drawing the Devs in the first round, to the Habs taking out both the Caps and Pens... to getting the worst offensive team in the NHL in the 2nd round.

Luck is great... and you need some of it here and there in the playoffs. But the problem with luck? It ain't something you can replicate on command... whereas smart management is something you can replicate.

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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
The Eminger/27th pick trade was absolutely awful...however, moving Eminger and Downie for Carle has worked out just fine.
Carle has worked out fine this year... whilst paired with Pronger. Wasn't a fan of his play last year... at all.

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Hey, this is a good point. Because, think about it...if the Flyers don't win the Cup this year, but then win it the next 3 years, that trade is a clear loss.
Nah, they have the entire tenure of Pronger's stay here to get it done... but the Pronger deal was ENTIRELY about putting this team over the hump. Not about reaching the finals, but winning a Cup.

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05-25-2010, 04:05 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carle has worked out fine this year... whilst paired with Pronger. Wasn't a fan of his play last year... at all.
I certainly know what you mean, but fact is, it's worked out fine at this point.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Nah, they have the entire tenure of Pronger's stay here to get it done... but the Pronger deal was ENTIRELY about putting this team over the hump. Not about reaching the finals, but winning a Cup.
Ah, well I took your post as a suggestion that the trade was a win or loss based upon whether they come away with the Cup or not this year. If we're talking about the entire tenure, then yeah, putting it that way is fair.

But anyway, I've come around on Pronger. At the time of the trade, I thought it was great to get Pronger, but upset at what seemed like an overpayment, especially in consideration of the fact that Pronger only had 1-year left on his deal.

Since then though, Pronger's play and effect on this team has made it abundantly clear to me that he truly is a generational talent, even at this age and stage of his career. While I certainly would have liked to trade less in order to acquire him, it probably would have been worthwhile to trade even more. The guy is that good...one of a kind. I might like to have a couple less years on his extension, but at least he was extended...not to mention the insane cap hit he's about to shift down to. And if for the next few years he is able to play at a level anywhere near this year, those last few years of the deal won't be tough for me to swallow(that is, if his play even should wind up deteriorating significantly).

Also, I understand that view of the trade being a win or loss based upon whether a Cup is won or not...but I believe that there is virtually zero chance that any of the combined pieces that were moved to acquire Pronger could have come to help this team be as successful as just Pronger can, regardless of any potential Cup victories that may be in this team's future. And for all the talk you do of the play-offs being a total crapshoot, I'd think you'd also identify with that point of view.

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05-25-2010, 04:06 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you call costing us the pick that turned into John Carlson, and then trading Steve Downie (who just potted a 20-goal campaign) doing a "decent job," then I guess so.
I was more talking about those things agrudez had mentioned. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's a genius and can do no wrong, but you gotta like where we are right now. No reason to be calling for his head anytime soon.

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05-25-2010, 04:07 PM
  #229
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Man it just got windy in here...

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05-25-2010, 04:20 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by FlyerEra2010 View Post
I was more talking about those things agrudez had mentioned. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's a genius and can do no wrong, but you gotta like where we are right now. No reason to be calling for his head anytime soon.
Look, playoffs are a horrible way to evaluate anything. It's all short series, matchups, and the luck of who is hot when. So, there's a lot of stuff that you simply cannot control.

The fact of the matter is that the team Holmgren created finished 7th in the East, and needed a shootout win to secure that. The only reason they were even in that position is because a waiver wire pickup in Michael Leighton had a renaissance season here.

Now, it's friggin awesome that we're in the Cup finals... but lets put it this way, lets ponder the job Holmgren has done the next few years and I'm going to put this hypothetical in front of you: your life depends on the Flyers winning the Cup next season, do you want Holmgren making the decisions with your life on the scales?

I don't. The Jones decision alone was the most mind-bogglingly stupid decision I can recall from recent memory in sports. There are dumb trades that happen all the time, but that was just completely inexplicable... so, "What can you do?" was a fitting response from him when asked about it.

Ruben Amaro has made some mistakes as GM of the Phils, he's not perfect. But the stuff Amaro does is rational. You can understand why he does what he does, even if you don't agree with it... every year we seem to have at least one Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot moment with Holmgren.

That's a problem.

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05-25-2010, 04:24 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by FlyerEra2010 View Post
I was more talking about those things agrudez had mentioned. I'm not gonna sit here and say he's a genius and can do no wrong, but you gotta like where we are right now. No reason to be calling for his head anytime soon.
I wasn't calling for his head either, I pointed out that he made a ton of big mistakes, but was able to remedy them (even if many of them were based on alot of luck - ie. Leighton) and also pointed out his faults as a GM that regardless of winning a cup this year will hurt us going forward unless he corrects them.

It is folly to give the guy a pass because of where the team is in now, but rather, the team and coaching staff should be that much more commended.

a few months ago...

Leighton was a career AHL/backup goalie
Leino was about to get cut from Detroit
Laviolette was fired from the league's worst team

Is Homer supposed to be praised for bringing them here and them working out? Is he the Nostradamus of the NHL? Or is it more likely that they just worked their balls off?

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05-25-2010, 04:26 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Also, I understand that view of the trade being a win or loss based upon whether a Cup is won or not...but I believe that there is virtually zero chance that any of the combined pieces that were moved to acquire Pronger could have come to help this team be as successful as just Pronger can, regardless of any potential Cup victories that may be in this team's future. And for all the talk you do of the play-offs being a total crapshoot, I'd think you'd also identify with that point of view.
That's the problem... who knows. Maybe we draft another Claude Giroux. Maybe we draft the next Chris Pronger. I think Sbisa is going to be a quality top 4 guy sooner rather than later.

But the real problem with that trade -- and why it was make or break -- is that we have almost no flexibility at the moment because of it. So, yeah, the fact that Pronger has had a great regular season and playoffs is pretty important to that deal being even remotely worthwhile. The other issue, is that I think that Pronger ultimately complicates our window of opportunity, and certainly doesn't lengthen it -- which those picks/players might have done.

To an extent, that's fine though, because I think we're going to be severely handicapped by Timonen and Briere's money as they age...and Pronger will be right there with 'em. So, part of the gamble is maximizing the window we do have before that problem punches us in the face.

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05-25-2010, 04:27 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I wasn't calling for his head either, I pointed out that he made a ton of big mistakes, but was able to remedy them (even if many of them were based on alot of luck - ie. Leighton) and also pointed out his faults as a GM that regardless of winning a cup this year will hurt us going forward unless he corrects them.

It is folly to give the guy a pass because of where the team is in now, but rather, the team and coaching staff should be that much more commended.

a few months ago...

Leighton was a career AHL/backup goalie
Leino was about to get cut from Detroit
Laviolette was fired from the league's worst team

Is Homer supposed to be praised for bringing them here and them working out? Is he the Nostradamus of the NHL? Or is it more likely that they just worked their balls off?
No, Leino was going to get dealt most likely... someone would have stepped up for him, it just happened to be us, I think. And he does deserve credit for that deal. He's VERY good at those types of deals for fringe guys and prospects... just wish he was helping on that stuff from an assistant's role, rather than the lead.

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05-25-2010, 04:31 PM
  #234
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Holmgren deserves a ton of credit for the acquisition of Leino. However, I'm unsure, as I often am with situations of that nature, of how much of that credit should actually go to Holmgren and how much should go to one or more other people within the organization.

What I'm saying is, surely Holmgren has some people working under him that we aren't completely familiar with, and then the Flyers have scouts and what not as well. I guess I'd just like to know who exactly was the heavy influence in making the deal for Leino. Were we just actively seeking to get rid of Tolle, and Leino was a random guy that someone would do it for? Was Leino specifically targeted? And if so, whose decision was that exactly? I know most people probably don't give a **** about this stuff, but dammit I find it interesting, haha. Certainly though, no matter how you slice it, Holmgren must have the final say, so he surely deserves plenty of credit regardless of whoever else may deserve some.

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05-25-2010, 04:37 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Holmgren deserves a ton of credit for the acquisition of Leino. However, I'm unsure, as I often am with situations of that nature, of how much of that credit should actually go to Holmgren and how much should go to one or more other people within the organization.

What I'm saying is, surely Holmgren has some people working under him that we aren't completely familiar with, and then the Flyers have scouts and what not as well. I guess I'd just like to know who exactly was the heavy influence in making the deal for Leino. Were we just actively seeking to get rid of Tolle, and Leino was a random guy that someone would do it for? Was Leino specifically targeted? And if so, whose decision was that exactly? I know most people probably don't give a **** about this stuff, but dammit I find it interesting, haha. Certainly though, no matter how you slice it, Holmgren must have the final say, so he surely deserves plenty of credit regardless of whoever else may deserve some.
Oh, scouting is massively important... and that's partially why Holmgren deserves much of the credit (and blame) for stuff that happened under Clarke. Clarke didn't know Giroux's friggin name!

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05-25-2010, 04:47 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by agrudez View Post
I'm surprised you didn't want his head just for firing your boy Stevens.
!BOOM! goes the dynamite.



Naw, I was never a huge fan of Stevens, I just felt that he wasn't the issue and those looking for his head were just looking for some (or any) way to shield their sacred cows from criticism.

Anyway, Holmgren has done a fine job, as it turns out.

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05-25-2010, 04:54 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Oh, scouting is massively important... and that's partially why Holmgren deserves much of the credit (and blame) for stuff that happened under Clarke. Clarke didn't know Giroux's friggin name!
Oh yeah, I know scouting is very important. I just wonder sometimes exactly how things play out in specific situations, ya know...like the Leino trade, for instance. I'm sure every situation is different, and I'm sure there are particular guys in the organization that we the fans aren't familiar with who deserve a lot of credit.

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05-25-2010, 04:56 PM
  #238
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Clarke didn't know Giroux's friggin name!
One of the most hilarious things in sports I've seen live.

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05-25-2010, 05:01 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Oh yeah, I know scouting is very important. I just wonder sometimes exactly how things play out in specific situations, ya know...like the Leino trade, for instance. I'm sure every situation is different, and I'm sure there are particular guys in the organization that we the fans aren't familiar with who deserve a lot of credit.
I mean, we drafted Klotz at the insistence of our western scout (former player, blanking on his name). Who is to blame there, the scout... or Holmgren drafting an enforcer at that spot?

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05-25-2010, 05:10 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I mean, we drafted Klotz at the insistence of our western scout (former player, blanking on his name). Who is to blame there, the scout... or Holmgren drafting an enforcer at that spot?
Yeah, I remember hearing that before, that's interesting. As for the blame, both of them are at fault...and just how much blame each deserves would depend on a variety of factors. I'd like to be privy to the whole exchange between that dude and Holmgren.

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05-25-2010, 05:20 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, Leino was going to get dealt most likely... someone would have stepped up for him, it just happened to be us, I think. And he does deserve credit for that deal. He's VERY good at those types of deals for fringe guys and prospects... just wish he was helping on that stuff from an assistant's role, rather than the lead.
leino had to be moved for salary cap reasons. i am disappointed that we did not also get a second round pick. when holmgron had to clear cap space, (see upshall and Gauthier) he always included a pick going the other way.

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05-25-2010, 05:35 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by dgaspari View Post
leino had to be moved for salary cap reasons. i am disappointed that we did not also get a second round pick. when holmgron had to clear cap space, (see upshall and Gauthier) he always included a pick going the other way.
Gauthier was because no one wanted that contract... Upshall was a terrible value trade.

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05-25-2010, 05:36 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you're going to defend him with some honesty, don't reduce the complaints targeted at Holmgren to just Randy Jones.

This playoff run hasn't magically made Holmgren better at managing the salary cap. If you had a complaint about that before (I for one did), then advancing in the Stanley Cup Playoffs has done NOTHING to prove Holmgren's merits there.
Paul Holmgrens handling of Randy Jones is a handy example of a number of areas where people complain about Holmgren.

I for one think Holmgren has probably made some mistakes that were legitimately dumb, and made some perceived mistakes that were calculated risks that people didn't agree with, as well as some decisions that were motivated by other factors that we as fans don't care about. Simply put, I think Holmgren has more of an idea and more of a plan regarding his personnel and the cap then people give him credit for.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
The Pronger trade... if we win the Cup, and we're there, then that was a clear win trade. If we don't win the Cup, then it was a clear lose trade. That's how high the stakes were with that deal.
I disagree. Pronger has been everything we traded for him to be. Whether or not that puts us over the top against an unsustainably stacked Chicago team can not be the only measure of success. You can't be 100% results oriented about that trade, and in the same breath tell me that possibly winning the cup doesn't mean Holmgren can't manage the salary cap. IF we apply the same logic to both situations, if the Flyers win the cup, then Holmgren manages the cap well.

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05-25-2010, 05:46 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Paul Holmgrens handling of Randy Jones is a handy example of a number of areas where people complain about Holmgren.

I for one think Holmgren has probably made some mistakes that were legitimately dumb, and made some perceived mistakes that were calculated risks that people didn't agree with, as well as some decisions that were motivated by other factors that we as fans don't care about. Simply put, I think Holmgren has more of an idea and more of a plan regarding his personnel and the cap then people give him credit for.
Then he should probably be able to be a bit more articulate than "What can you do?"

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I disagree. Pronger has been everything we traded for him to be. Whether or not that puts us over the top against an unsustainably stacked Chicago team can not be the only measure of success. You can't be 100% results oriented about that trade, and in the same breath tell me that possibly winning the cup doesn't mean Holmgren can't manage the salary cap. IF we apply the same logic to both situations, if the Flyers win the cup, then Holmgren manages the cap well.
Winning the cup and managing the cap are two separate things. Tallon, for example, did a horrid job of managing the cap. The winning team this year, will have done a poor job managing their cap situation.

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05-25-2010, 06:27 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Then he should probably be able to be a bit more articulate than "What can you do?"
I'm sure if you or I were Ed Snider, he would be. It was a throw away quote given to a reporter. Granted, I don't think he is a genius. I just don't buy that he is a retard either.


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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Winning the cup and managing the cap are two separate things.
Winning the cup and executing a successful trade are two different things too.

Your metric for success in the Pronger trade was a cup win. If he wins a cup this year will he not have managed the cap successfully? Hypothetically speaking, what isn't successful about winning a cup?

I don't equate a sustainable personnel and pay-roll situation with successful management.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Tallon, for example, did a horrid job of managing the cap. The winning team this year, will have done a poor job managing their cap situation.
The winning team this year will have accrued an amount of talent that is not sustainable under the current cap, in order to provide themselves a brief window of opportunity to hoist a cup.

Sacrifices and risks will have been made by the front offices of both organizations with that goal in mind. The Huet and Campbell contracts are pretty bad, I'll concede, but a lot of the reason the Chicago is in the situation they're in is because they have more good players than they can afford to pay under the salary cap. Dave Tallon drafted almost all of them, or traded for them before they really came on as good players. That's a good thing.

Hell, look at the Flyers roster and all the contracts we ***** about...is there one guy who is a bad a value as a Huet, Redden, Lecavlier, Kotalik etc. I'm sure Holmgren has payed a lot for guys (Kimmo, Briere, Hartnell, Lupul, Carter) but for the most part he has over payed for legit producers (the exception being Jones, who was a decent player up to that point). His performance has been under rated by many IMO.


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05-25-2010, 06:37 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I'm sure if you or I were Ed Snider, he would be. It was a throw away quote given to a reporter. Granted, I don't think he is a genius. I just don't buy that he is a retard either.
That wasn't a throw away line. He explained the whole situation to a T, and then said, "What can you do?"

Quote:
Your metric for success in the Pronger trade was a cup win. If he wins a cup will he not have managed the cap successfully? Hypothetically, what isn't successful about winning a cup?

I don't equate a sustainable personnel and pay-roll situation with successful management
.

No, a team that was poorly managed against the cap will have won the Cup. Salary cap management and on ice success operate in tandem, but are distinct elements. You can screw up your cap and still win... just won't be sustainable.

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The winning team this year will have accrued an amount of talent that is not sustainable under the current cap, in order to provide themselves a brief window of opportunity to hoist a cup.

Sacrifices and risks will have been made by the front offices of both organizations with that goal in mind. The Huet and Campbell contracts are pretty bad, I'll concede, but a lot of the reason the Chicago is in the situation they're in is because they have more good players than they can afford to pay under the salary cap. Dave Tallon drafted or traded for almost all of them. That's a good thing.

Hell, look at the Flyers roster and all the contracts we ***** about...is there one guy who is a bad a value as a Huet, Redden, Lecavlier, Kotalik etc. I'm sure Holmgren has payed a lot for guys (Kimmo, Briere, Hartnell, Lupul, Carter) but for the most part he has over payed for legit producers (the exception being Jones, who was a decent player up to that point). His performance has been under rated by many IMO.
Look at that Chicago roster... and remove the Campbell and Huet contracts. The Campbell one in particular was a bad idea from the outset. Give them that wiggle room, and you're looking at a dynasty. Not a team that is about to lose some of its moving support parts. On top of that, Tallon royally messed up his RFAs last offseason that cost 'em some more cap space.

Holmgren, for the most part, has avoided a true poison-pill contract -- though, Briere's is close to one and will be worse as he gets older. Holmgren's problem is less the poison-pill contracts and more the seeming complete lack of a "plan." Of course, all of this is before we begin to address Giroux and Carter going forward. The Lupul contract was a bad idea, and we basically paid for Anaheim to take him off our hands in the Pronger deal. I don't think it's a terrible contract, but it was ill-advised given our cap situation.

The whole Jones thing was a fiasco. As was the whole sequence of events that happened stemming from the Eminger deal.

The fact of the matter is that Holmgren had one really good offseason paired with developing young players and we're still living from then. Pronger is the only key player that doesn't stem from that year/offseason.

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05-25-2010, 06:48 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I mean, we drafted Klotz at the insistence of our western scout (former player, blanking on his name). Who is to blame there, the scout... or Holmgren drafting an enforcer at that spot?
For whatever reason, the name that popped into my head was Mark Greig. If that's the guy, he should be fired (seriously... pay me to be a scout and I'd do a better job than suggesting Garrett ****ing Klotz in the THIRD round).

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05-25-2010, 09:20 PM
  #248
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Wow

I can't believe this is being debated????? Homer was head of scouting when we drafted Giroux, Carter and Richards! He signed or traded for Pringer, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Parent, krajicek, leighton, Boucher, carcillo, Leibovitz, briere, hartnell, asham, jvr, betts, laps, powe! In short, this whole team!!! For those that like to point to one bad trade, pick or signing, look at the finished product!

For those that think he is dumb? He invented the front loaded deal and the trade for coming UFA's which is now the norm, genius!

For those that think he is killing the future? Look at our goalie prospects! It was in shambles! Bow, we have two of the four startingc goalies from the memorial cup, the #1 prospect in Sweden and the top Russian! Amazing!

Give the guy some credit, we are in the finals!!!!!

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05-26-2010, 08:40 AM
  #249
Talbetts
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I can't believe this is being debated????? Homer was head of scouting when we drafted Giroux, Carter and Richards! He signed or traded for Pringer, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Parent, krajicek, leighton, Boucher, carcillo, Leibovitz, briere, hartnell, asham, jvr, betts, laps, powe! In short, this whole team!!! For those that like to point to one bad trade, pick or signing, look at the finished product!

For those that think he is dumb? He invented the front loaded deal and the trade for coming UFA's which is now the norm, genius!

For those that think he is killing the future? Look at our goalie prospects! It was in shambles! Bow, we have two of the four startingc goalies from the memorial cup, the #1 prospect in Sweden and the top Russian! Amazing!

Give the guy some credit, we are in the finals!!!!!
Excellent post. Thank you!

Also, if we want to discuss luck, it goes BOTH ways. He's had some bad luck too.

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Old
05-26-2010, 09:27 AM
  #250
rayearth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I can't believe this is being debated????? Homer was head of scouting when we drafted Giroux, Carter and Richards! He signed or traded for Pringer, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Parent, krajicek, leighton, Boucher, carcillo, Leibovitz, briere, hartnell, asham, jvr, betts, laps, powe! In short, this whole team!!! For those that like to point to one bad trade, pick or signing, look at the finished product!

For those that think he is dumb? He invented the front loaded deal and the trade for coming UFA's which is now the norm, genius!

For those that think he is killing the future? Look at our goalie prospects! It was in shambles! Bow, we have two of the four startingc goalies from the memorial cup, the #1 prospect in Sweden and the top Russian! Amazing!

Give the guy some credit, we are in the finals!!!!!
Duh, everybody knows that draft picks and cap space are more important than putting together a championship caliber team for a few years.

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