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The 5+20 minute penalty on Emelin

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Old
05-25-2010, 04:04 PM
  #51
Psycho Papa Joe
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Obviously it was one of the key moments of the Gold Medal game with 10 minutes left. Judge for yourself.

Serious question: Are hip checks illegal in the IIHF WC? If they are legal, Emelin and the Russians were screwed.

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05-25-2010, 04:06 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Serious question: Are hip checks illegal in the IIHF WC? If they are legal, Emelin and the Russians were screwed.
They are legal, but apparentely the refs saw this as a clipping, it is a rule where you go to the knees or below the knees. If there is an injury on the play it is automatic 5+20. Explains why Jagr didn't want to get up after he heard the whistle.

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05-25-2010, 04:11 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
They are legal, but apparentely the refs saw this as a clipping, it is a rule where you go to the knees or below the knees. If there is an injury on the play it is automatic 5+20. Explains why Jagr didn't want to get up after he heard the whistle.
That was above the knees. I think most of the force was directed at the thighs and some at the mid section. Per the rules, I think that should be considered a good hit.

I'll be honest, I wanted the Czechs to win that game. But as far as I can remember, that has always been considered a legal hipcheck. The Russians were boned.

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05-25-2010, 04:32 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
It would have been correct if the hit was on or below the knees and Jagr got realy hurt. As you can see on the video the contact was made above the knees which is considered a clean check.
It looked to me that Emelin lowered his body and contacted Jagr at the knee. The clip resulted in an injury so 5 and a game.

Being neutral and not a fan of either team - the correct call was made by the official IMHO.

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05-25-2010, 04:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
Not a fan of the IIHF's automatic rules, but by those rules, the injury on what was a textbook clipping play warrants 5 + 20. He went in too low on Jagr. It's across or below the knee, not solely below.
The same rule in the NHL as well.
Quote:
Rule 45 - Clipping

45.1 Clipping - Clipping is the act of throwing the body, from any direction, across or below the knees of an opponent.

A player or goalkeeper may not deliver a check in a “clipping” manner, nor lower his own body position to deliver a check on or below an opponent’s knees.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26334

Deliver a clip and if the player is injured then it is at least a 5 minute major and a game misconduct:
Quote:
45.3 Major Penalty - If an injury occurs as a result of this “clipping” check, the player or goalkeeper must be assessed a major penalty (see 45.5).

45.4 Match Penalty - The Referee, at his discretion, may assess a match penalty if, in his judgment, the player or goalkeeper attempted to or deliberately injured his opponent by clipping.

45.5 Game Misconduct Penalty - A game misconduct penalty must be assessed anytime a major penalty is applied for injuring an opponent by clipping.

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05-25-2010, 04:39 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
It looked to me that Emelin lowered his body and contacted Jagr at the knee. The clip resulted in an injury so 5 and a game.

Being neutral and not a fan of either team - the correct call was made by the official IMHO.
That's fairly blatant misrepresentation of the factual events. No contact with the knee, no impact on the knee - no clipping. It is a clean check, no penalty, forget the 5+20. No wonder some NHL referees decide to put their whistles away at the end of the important games. This one ended ugly, it was followed by a number of wrong calls on both sides, for me the game was spoiled.

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05-25-2010, 04:40 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Clipping is a great rule, because you try to protect the players from being deliberately injured by other players. Sometimes you see those clippings and you go ouch. It wasn't anything like that, Jagr's knee was fine.
If it was deliberate intent to injure then a match penalty would have been in order.

The check was low, delivered across the knees and Jagr suffered an injury. So 5 minutes and a game misconduct.

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05-25-2010, 04:41 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
That's fairly blatant misrepresentation of the factual events. No contact with the knee, no impact on the knee - no clipping. It is a clean check, no penalty, forget the 5+20. No wonder some NHL referees decide to put their whistles away at the end of the important games. This one ended ugly, it was followed by a number of wrong calls on both sides, for me the game was spoiled.
Just calling it the way I see it. It was a classic clip as set out in the rules.

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05-25-2010, 04:47 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Just calling it the way I see it. It was a classic clip as set out in the rules.
I question your understanding what hipcheck is. Here is a good video for you

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05-25-2010, 04:53 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
I question your understanding what hipcheck is. Here is a good video for you
Fully aware and the Emelin hit was a clip IMHO.

And I am not looking at the hit through fan coloured glasses.

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05-25-2010, 04:56 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Hipcheck on second 14 is actually identical to Emelin hit. So you can say it was a classic hipcheck by the NHL standard.

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05-25-2010, 05:00 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Hipcheck on second 14 is actually identical to Emelin hit. So you can say it was a classic hipcheck by the NHL standard.
I would not say that.

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05-25-2010, 05:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
I would not say that.
Yeah, I know already, according to you it was a clip.

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05-25-2010, 05:20 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Yeah, I know already, according to you it was a clip.
Yes it was. And since it was a clip resulting in injury to Jagr that then mandated a 5 minute major and an automatic game misconduct as a minimum penalty.

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05-25-2010, 05:23 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Yes it was. And since it was a clip resulting in injury to Jagr that then mandated a 5 minute major and an automatic game misconduct as a minimum penalty.
Since you seem to be a knowledgeble type, would you say Fedorov was clipped or kneed in this video second 5


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05-25-2010, 05:24 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
The same rule in the NHL as well.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=26334

Deliver a clip and if the player is injured then it is at least a 5 minute major and a game misconduct:
Fair; I suppose what I mean is that I'm not as much a fan of the end result in the IIHF, as a function of the rule(s) on the books, the ultimate interpretation by officials, and the calls made on the ice. There is generally more contextual officiating in the NHL than in the IIHF. I don't think the IIHF officials have as much license for discretion, as do officials in the NHL. I don't believe five plus a game would have resulted from that hit in the NHL, at that point of a title game, despite the presence of the rule. I think he would have received five and returned to the ice afterwards. A quibble, though.

As for the hit itself, I thought Emelin made direct contact with the knees, myself. Penalty.


Last edited by Drake1588: 05-25-2010 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Error correction
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05-25-2010, 05:33 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Serious question: Are hip checks illegal in the IIHF WC? If they are legal, Emelin and the Russians were screwed.
A good hip check is hip-on-hip. Any lower than that is a dangerous hit - when the contact is between the mid-thigh and knee especially.

Emelin's hit is a little low. It's not a low-bridge hit and not a classic clip, which tends to be a shot right at the knees. It would have been a borderline call, I think. The result - the Czechs' best player leaving the ice - made the call a little easier to make, but it's not a cut-and-dried case either way.

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05-25-2010, 05:39 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
Since you seem to be a knowledgeble type, would you say Fedorov was clipped or kneed in this video second 5

Looked more like a trip if it was anything. He took more of the force from his own player from what I can see.

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05-25-2010, 05:51 PM
  #69
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As was posted by a fellow Finn already, the ref Jari Levonen was on Finnish morning tv today and said that in his eyes it was a clear case of clipping. He said they don't have the benefit of replays in these situations (the first time he was a replay of it was on the show), things happen really fast on ice level and the're required to make the calls instantly. He also said NO RUSSIAN PLAYER OR COACH COMPLAINED ABOUT THE CALL.

/thread.

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05-25-2010, 05:52 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588 View Post
I don't think the IIHF officials have as much license for discretion, as do officials in the NHL. I don't believe five plus a game would have resulted from that hit in the NHL, at that point of a tie game, despite the presence of the rule. I think he would have received five and returned to the ice afterwards. A quibble, though.

As for the hit itself, I thought Emelin made direct contact with the knees, myself. Penalty.
IMO Emelin tries to hip-check but turns around late, resulting a hit on Jagr with his shoulder/upper-body in the opponent's knee region. Therefore, a penalty, and by the rule book, correctly called.
I concur that NHL refs have more liberties than their IIHF peers, but the game was 2-0 Czechs at the time of the incident.
It is therefore pretty lame to pretend that this called was anywhere close to decisive for the outcome of the game (Russia unable to score for more than 50 minutes, as has been mentioned over and over again...)

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05-25-2010, 05:55 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
As was posted by a fellow Finn already, the ref Jari Levonen was on Finnish morning tv today and said that in his eyes it was a clear case of clipping. He said they don't have the benefit of replays in these situations (the first time he was a replay of it was on the show), things happen really fast on ice level and the're required to make the calls instantly. He also said NO RUSSIAN PLAYER OR COACH COMPLAINED ABOUT THE CALL.

/thread.
No blame on the ref when the star player is seemingly in a lot of pain. The wrong call was made but it was caused by an obvious faking, Jagr not only wasn't hit on or below his knees, he didn't really have the speed to have a strong impact during the hit. The diving kills the sport if you allow things like this. If Jagr does not fake - there is probably no penalty and if it is then it is only two minutes.
BTW about the compaints - Atyushov said that the were simply stunned how Jagr could trick the ref like that, he said it was an obvious dive no doubt about it.

Anyways, combined with a lot of faking this year in SC playoffs (Carcillo incident was ugly) as well as at the Worlds you can clearly see that the players choose to dive when they can. It's embarassing to the sport and should be dealt with ASAP.

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05-25-2010, 06:04 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
No blame on the ref when the star player is seemingly in a lot of pain. The wrong call was made but it was caused by an obvious faking, Jagr not only wasn't hit on or below his knees, he didn't really have the speed to have a strong impact during the hit. The diving kills the sport if you allow things like this. If Jagr does not fake - there is probably no penalty and if it is then it is only two minutes.
BTW about the compaints - Atyushov said that the were simply stunned how Jagr could trick the ref like that, he said it was an obvious dive no doubt about it.
Seriously? A dive? Have you any kind of first hand on what kind of damage an impact on the knee can cause, esp. from the front? It is a very complex joint, even low energy impacts can cause severe damage and pain.

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05-25-2010, 06:07 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by mexicohockey View Post
Seriously? A dive? Have you any kind of first hand on what kind of damage an impact on the knee can cause, esp. from the front? It is a very complex joint, even low energy impacts can cause severe damage and pain.
Dive! Watch the players who don't choose to dive, get puck in the unprotected area and skate off in visible pain. Jagr choose to lay down - obvious dive.

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05-25-2010, 06:07 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siberian View Post
No blame on the ref when the star player is seemingly in a lot of pain. The wrong call was made but it was caused by an obvious faking, Jagr not only wasn't hit on or below his knees, he didn't really have the speed to have a strong impact during the hit. The diving kills the sport if you allow things like this. If Jagr does not fake - there is probably no penalty and if it is then it is only two minutes.
BTW about the compaints - Atyushov said that the were simply stunned how Jagr could trick the ref like that, he said it was an obvious dive no doubt about it.

Anyways, combined with a lot of faking this year in SC playoffs (Carcillo incident was ugly) as well as at the Worlds you can clearly see that the players choose to dive when they can. It's embarassing to the sport and should be dealt with ASAP.
It did not look like a dive - Jagr took a check right on the knee.

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05-25-2010, 06:10 PM
  #75
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I saw Jagr leaving the locker room as one of the last two players to leave the rink after the game. Seemed like he and the other player (couldn't tell who it was) were in a hurry. Both were walking fine, even somewhat quickly.

Doesn't have to mean anything.

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