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05-26-2010, 10:13 AM
  #251
Jester
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I can't believe this is being debated????? Homer was head of scouting when we drafted Giroux, Carter and Richards! He signed or traded for Pringer, Timonen, Carle, Coburn, Parent, krajicek, leighton, Boucher, carcillo, Leibovitz, briere, hartnell, asham, jvr, betts, laps, powe! In short, this whole team!!! For those that like to point to one bad trade, pick or signing, look at the finished product!
1) No one has ever suggested Holmgren doesn't have a very good eye for talent. He's a very good scout and probably never should have been promoted out of the Asst. GM role, which he was clearly exemplary at.

2) Holmgren certainly deserves credit for some of those picks, but he only got to make some of those picks because Clarke acquired extra picks in deep drafts... specifically Richards and Carter. Ya know, getting 1sts as opposed to giving 'em away...

3) It isn't one bad trade or pick or signing... it's a chronic series of decisions that cannot be rationally explained. The Jones and Lupul contracts. The decision to recall Jones when he was absolutely going to get claimed by someone. The Eminger trade. The Carle trade without any attention to the salary cap, which cost us Metro, Vaananen, and, ultimately, Upshall and a 2nd for Carcillo (a terrible value trade)... and had Mike Richards calling out the job he did at the end of season presser last year.

And there are tangible results of his poor cap management. For example, if he hadn't screwed up the whole Randy Jones thing... Mike Knuble would have been on this team this year, and the whole 3-scoring line plan would have worked a lot smoother.

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For those that think he is dumb? He invented the front loaded deal and the trade for coming UFA's which is now the norm, genius!
No, he didn't invent the front loaded deal. It's existed in other sports for year, most notably football with their signing bonus contract structure... it's a natural and logical step when you have a salary cap in place.

And we traded for Roenick under Clarke years ago.

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For those that think he is killing the future? Look at our goalie prospects! It was in shambles! Bow, we have two of the four startingc goalies from the memorial cup, the #1 prospect in Sweden and the top Russian! Amazing!
We do not have the #1 prospect in Sweden.

And goalie prospects are great, but also ridiculously unpredictable.

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Give the guy some credit, we are in the finals!!!!!
No, the team is in the finals. Despite him. As noted, the only reason we're here is because of a waiver wire pick-up turning out completely different than even he could have possibly hoped.

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05-26-2010, 10:37 AM
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, the team is in the finals. Despite him.

Poor Paul can't get any slack man. He's about to watch his team play in the finals and we're still harshing on him.

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05-26-2010, 10:44 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Poor Paul can't get any slack man. He's about to watch his team play in the finals and we're still harshing on him.
Fair is fair. Go read my trade deadline posts. One of the reasons I was so pissed we didn't go after a goalie was because I was convinced this team could compete for a Cup this season. At the same time, I was noting all these other problems.

And to be clear, my problem with Holmgren isn't that he makes mistakes... it's that he does objectively stupid crap with regularity. Mistakes can be forgiven, stupidity is a failing that cannot necessarily be corrected. Thus why I made note of Amaro above... Amaro has made mistakes, but his mistakes are framed within rational decision making. Holmgren's aren't. Reaching the Cup Finals doesn't make the Eminger trade any less inexplicable; doesn't make the decision to call up Randy Jones any less dumb. Dumb is dumb.

When you're spending to the salary cap and had draft picks that were turning out when you took over the job (hey look, similar to Tallon!) it's easy to construct a winning team. It's even easier to get to the Cup Finals when you avoid all the dangerous teams in the playoffs.

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05-26-2010, 10:47 AM
  #254
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I agree the way the goaltending situation worked out was pure blind luck. No one could have predicted Leighton, or Emery for that matter, or Boucher getting hot right when it mattered against NJ. Homer gambled that goaltending was a crapshoot, held onto our other assets (JVR and Giroux) and the gamble paid off big time. Could have well ended with the team missing the playoffs or getting destroyed by Kovalchuk.

IMO the best thing that Homer did for us this season (lucky pickups aside) was to fire Stevens and hire Laviolette. Lavi has been more important to the success of the team than any individual player, and firing Stevens was not a given. I thought for sure that Homer would give him more time out of organizational loyalty. Lavi turned this team around from a disorganized underperforming mess into the cohesive group we see today. He has improved our team defense, has the boys skating harder, and has been masterful at analyzing, picking apart, and adjusting to other teams style.

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05-26-2010, 10:53 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by MojoJojo View Post
I agree the way the goaltending situation worked out was pure blind luck. No one could have predicted Leighton, or Emery for that matter, or Boucher getting hot right when it mattered against NJ. Homer gambled that goaltending was a crapshoot, held onto our other assets (JVR and Giroux) and the gamble paid off big time. Could have well ended with the team missing the playoffs or getting destroyed by Kovalchuk.

IMO the best thing that Homer did for us this season (lucky pickups aside) was to fire Stevens and hire Laviolette. Lavi has been more important to the success of the team than any individual player, and firing Stevens was not a given. I thought for sure that Homer would give him more time out of organizational loyalty. Lavi turned this team around from a disorganized underperforming mess into the cohesive group we see today. He has improved our team defense, has the boys skating harder, and has been masterful at analyzing, picking apart, and adjusting to other teams style.
This a whole other ball of wax independent of player decisions. Stevens should have been fired last summer at the latest... obviously my aggravation with him would have led to that decision well before then. However, if as the GM you're going to your coach and ****ing about the way your team is playing systemically (as we know was the case with Holmgren concerning the forecheck and whatnot) then you have a real problem on your hands. We also know that he tried to talk Lavi into coaching the Phantoms, so him ending up with the big club was probably in Holmgren's mind then, he just didn't have the gumption to pull the trigger then -- likely out of friendship loyalty.

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05-26-2010, 10:57 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Fair is fair. Go read my trade deadline posts. One of the reasons I was so pissed we didn't go after a goalie was because I was convinced this team could compete for a Cup this season. At the same time, I was noting all these other problems.

And to be clear, my problem with Holmgren isn't that he makes mistakes... it's that he does objectively stupid crap with regularity. Mistakes can be forgiven, stupidity is a failing that cannot necessarily be corrected. Thus why I made note of Amaro above... Amaro has made mistakes, but his mistakes are framed within rational decision making. Holmgren's aren't. Reaching the Cup Finals doesn't make the Eminger trade any less inexplicable; doesn't make the decision to call up Randy Jones any less dumb. Dumb is dumb.

When you're spending to the salary cap and had draft picks that were turning out when you took over the job (hey look, similar to Tallon!) it's easy to construct a winning team. It's even easier to get to the Cup Finals when you avoid all the dangerous teams in the playoffs.
Your tune hasn't changed, this is true. I was just saying, as a group....we don't let up. Not only does a trip to the finals not buy you an off-season reprieve, we're still going at it before the teams even play.

As for the remark about avoiding all the dangerous teams, that's horse ****. Straight-up horse ****. Are the Pens and Caps dangerous, yup. Could we have beaten them? Yeah. The Habs actually did and the Flyers handled them. The Bruins were a play-off style hockey team, good D and tending. Granted the offense looked like ass once Krejci went down, but out D probably had something to do with that also. And New jersey was New Jersey, they're always good.

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05-26-2010, 11:07 AM
  #257
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Credit

OK, so you guys think it is blind luck that we have a goalie playing so well? Or perhaps, it is because Paul Holmgren built a team that is so unbelievable defensively that it seems any goalie we put in our net is capable of winning in the NHL. Chris Pronger was a deal most dismissed as a huge overpayment by Homer, in truth.....it was a ballsy move that has paid off. We gave away a bad contract in Lupul, and three picks (Sbiza, Moore and hopefully the 30th overall this year).

Homer went cheap in net similar to the Detroit model. Get forwards that play both ends of the ice (Richards, Carter, Gagne, Giroux, Laps, Betts, Asham, Powe, Carcillo) and suppport that with a top 4 defense that can match any in the league (Pronger, Carle, Timonen, Coburn). You guys claim we are lucky, there is no such thing in this league. I believe that with Leighton, Emery or Boucher, this team could have made the Stanley Cup Finals. Leighton is the best of the bunch, but most everyone would admit that the stellar play in front of him has allowed him to get shutouts without being tested.

Either way - do you like the 2009-2010 Philadelphia Flyers? If you do, then regardless of the few blunders (Jones waive, Eminger deal, Upshall deal) he did a great job of constructing this team. Below are some other key points:

- Last year the cap was "mis-managed". That was becaues Briere missed half the year and when he came back, we had to either send Giroux to the minors or trade someone. Homer made the trades and we still almost beat the Pens in the first round!!! NOTE: Detroit and Chicago are currently in the same boat we were in last year, they are perennial winners. Chicago will have to put Huet in the minors next year and give away Versteeg and Sharp. Detroit already gave away Leino

- Eminger deal was terrible. But he turned Eminger into Carle, so he corrected that mistake

- Lupol signing was too much. He never made that money in Philly and we flipped him for Pronger who signed for the same cap hit (4.9 million)

Enough already. Name one GM that is doing a better job?

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05-26-2010, 11:08 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Your tune hasn't changed, this is true. I was just saying, as a group....we don't let up. Not only does a trip to the finals not buy you an off-season reprieve, we're still going at it before the teams even play.

As for the remark about avoiding all the dangerous teams, that's horse ****. Straight-up horse ****. Are the Pens and Caps dangerous, yup. Could we have beaten them? Yeah. The Habs actually did and the Flyers handled them. The Bruins were a play-off style hockey team, good D and tending. Granted the offense looked like ass once Krejci went down, but out D probably had something to do with that also. And New jersey was New Jersey, they're always good.
New Jersey was the ideal matchup for this team in the 1st rd. We owned NJ all year, and that continued in the playoffs. Boston had the WORST offense in the NHL this past season. You literally can't ask for a better opponent in the 2nd rd. of the playoffs than the worst offensive team in the NHL. Then, somehow, we drew the no. 8 seed (first time in the history of the playoffs) in the conference finals as the 7 seed.

We avoided Ryan Miller and the Sabres, the Pens (who have owned us for 3 straight years) and the Caps, who I don't think we would have had much of a chance against... Halak's performance in that series was out of this world, and with all due respect to Leighton I don't think he has that in him even the way he's been playing to this point.

Now, for the team... you have to beat who comes in front of you. As a GM, you need to plan to beat the best of the best, and we didn't have to until now. It's been a great playoff run, but to suggest we haven't been historically lucky in who we've matched up with is to ignore what just happened. No. 7 v. No. 8 has literally never happened before.

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05-26-2010, 11:13 AM
  #259
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
New Jersey was the ideal matchup for this team in the 1st rd. We owned NJ all year, and that continued in the playoffs. Boston had the WORST offense in the NHL this past season. You literally can't ask for a better opponent in the 2nd rd. of the playoffs than the worst offensive team in the NHL. Then, somehow, we drew the no. 8 seed (first time in the history of the playoffs) in the conference finals as the 7 seed.

We avoided Ryan Miller and the Sabres, the Pens (who have owned us for 3 straight years) and the Caps, who I don't think we would have had much of a chance against... Halak's performance in that series was out of this world, and with all due respect to Leighton I don't think he has that in him even the way he's been playing to this point.

Now, for the team... you have to beat who comes in front of you. As a GM, you need to plan to beat the best of the best, and we didn't have to until now. It's been a great playoff run, but to suggest we haven't been historically lucky in who we've matched up with is to ignore what just happened. No. 7 v. No. 8 has literally never happened before.
We had the easiest possible trip to the SCF. No one can argue that.

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05-26-2010, 11:17 AM
  #260
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The Habs were in the conference finals on merit. To call them a #8 seed is a little disingenuous. As for the Bruins offense, it sucked all season, no arguments.And I am not about to take credit away from the team for kicking New Jersey's ass just because they had proven they could do it in the regular season. They still kicked their ass when it mattered.

The fact of the matter is that most teams that make it to the Finals have had some luck somewhere along the way, whether it be match-ups, staying healthy, a goalie catching fire (if you wanna call that luck). There's some luck in the game.

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05-26-2010, 11:19 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
- Last year the cap was "mis-managed". That was becaues Briere missed half the year and when he came back, we had to either send Giroux to the minors or trade someone. Homer made the trades and we still almost beat the Pens in the first round!!! NOTE: Detroit and Chicago are currently in the same boat we were in last year, they are perennial winners. Chicago will have to put Huet in the minors next year and give away Versteeg and Sharp. Detroit already gave away Leino
I don't think this defends Holmgren the way you seem to think it does...

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- Eminger deal was terrible. But he turned Eminger into Carle, so he corrected that mistake
Did he?

Carlson (potentially), Downie, Upshall, and a 2nd (+ Metro and Vaananen, who were quality depth guys) for Carle and Carcillo.

Hell, we could have just tried to deal for Meszaros that summer... or go another route other than Eminger (who was never going to fill the need we had).

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- Lupol signing was too much. He never made that money in Philly and we flipped him for Pronger who signed for the same cap hit (4.9 million)
You realize that part of the "value" we sent the other direction in the Pronger trade was to pay 'em for taking Lupul's contract off our hands, right?

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Enough already. Name one GM that is doing a better job?
Detroit, for one. Miles ahead of us as far as management goes.

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05-26-2010, 11:21 AM
  #262
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
We had the easiest possible trip to the SCF. No one can argue that.
Can a 3-0 deficit really be part of 'the easiest possible trip to the SCF'?


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05-26-2010, 11:25 AM
  #263
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
The Habs were in the conference finals on merit. To call them a #8 seed is a little disingenuous. As for the Bruins offense, it sucked all season, no arguments.And I am not about to take credit away from the team for kicking New Jersey's ass just because they had proven they could do it in the regular season. They still kicked their ass when it mattered.

The fact of the matter is that most teams that make it to the Finals have had some luck somewhere along the way, whether it be match-ups, staying healthy, a goalie catching fire (if you wanna call that luck). There's some luck in the game.
There is absolutely some luck and bounces on your trip through the playoffs. No denying that. However, it's also an easy argument to say that we had one of the luckiest trips in the history of the NHL playoffs to get to this point. Now, as said, you need to beat who is in front of you, and the team deserves credit for that. However, as a GM you can't be planning to beat the teams we beat... you need to be planning to beat the teams we didn't have to face.

As to it being disingenuous to call the Habs a #8 seed... cem on. They played 82 games, they were what they were. They were egregiously outplayed by the Capitals in Rd. 1, Halak just completely stood on his head. In the final three games of that series, the Caps put 134 shots on net and scored 3 goals. The Habs put 66 shots on net, and scored 8 goals. The Pens series was not nearly as lopsided, but still pretty far in favor of the Pens as far as carrying play... the Habs were an 8 seed with a ridiculously hot goalie.

However, the Habs were also a mighty midget team and when they faced us they ran into severe problems with their lack of size, and it cost 'em in front of the nets at both ends. Something the Caps and Pens didn't really challenge.

So, Halak was in the ECF on merit... not sure about the group of skaters in front of him.

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05-26-2010, 11:52 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Detroit, for one. Miles ahead of us as far as management goes.
OK Detroit then:
- Traded Ville Leino to Philadelphia for OK Tollefsen and a 5th rounder
- Traded Shawn Mattias (future star) + two picks for Todd Bertuzzi
- Signed Todd Bertuzzi (bad signing)
- Signed Jason Williams (bad signing)
- Signed Patrick Eaves (bad signing)
- Signed Andy Delmore (bad signing)
- Johan Frazen to 11 year deal????
- Henrik Zetterberg to 12 year deal????
- Daniel Cleary 5 year deal????
- Datsyk 7 year deal???

Next year they have 44 million locked up to 15 players. That gives them 12 million to fill the remaining 7 or so players (including Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Maltky, etc). We have 16 players locked up to 48 million with enough room to resign them all (Leighton, Powe, Asham, Coburn, Carcillo).

I agree, Detroit is a great organization, yet if you look at their history, you find many mistakes in the past couple of years. No different than Philly.

Fact is, Philly is now the third most successful team in the NHL over the past 3 years (Conference finals, first round exit, Stanley Cup Finals). Only Detroit and Pittsburgh have had more success than us.

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05-26-2010, 11:59 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
We had the easiest possible trip to the SCF. No one can argue that.
Yeah, that's the dirty little secret behind our run and why I think people are getting on the Homer bandwagon way too early considering I don't think we've played an elite team yet.

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05-26-2010, 12:15 PM
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
OK Detroit then:
- Traded Ville Leino to Philadelphia for OK Tollefsen and a 5th rounder
- Traded Shawn Mattias (future star) + two picks for Todd Bertuzzi
- Signed Todd Bertuzzi (bad signing)
- Signed Jason Williams (bad signing)
- Signed Patrick Eaves (bad signing)
- Signed Andy Delmore (bad signing)
- Johan Frazen to 11 year deal????
- Henrik Zetterberg to 12 year deal????
- Daniel Cleary 5 year deal????
- Datsyk 7 year deal???
The Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Franzen deals are fine. Eaves is also a pretty good player, I don't know what his contract is though. Leino was going to get waived to create space, so instead of waiving Leino and creating the space, they waived OKT and created the space. Oh, would you look at that, a fifth round pick just came out of nowhere! The Leino trade was a good way to leverage first crack at Leino for a fifth pick by Holland.

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05-26-2010, 12:17 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
OK Detroit then:
- Traded Ville Leino to Philadelphia for OK Tollefsen and a 5th rounder
- Traded Shawn Mattias (future star) + two picks for Todd Bertuzzi
- Signed Todd Bertuzzi (bad signing)
- Signed Jason Williams (bad signing)
- Signed Patrick Eaves (bad signing)
- Signed Andy Delmore (bad signing)
- Johan Frazen to 11 year deal????
- Henrik Zetterberg to 12 year deal????
- Daniel Cleary 5 year deal????
- Datsyk 7 year deal???

Next year they have 44 million locked up to 15 players. That gives them 12 million to fill the remaining 7 or so players (including Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Maltky, etc). We have 16 players locked up to 48 million with enough room to resign them all (Leighton, Powe, Asham, Coburn, Carcillo).

I agree, Detroit is a great organization, yet if you look at their history, you find many mistakes in the past couple of years. No different than Philly.

Fact is, Philly is now the third most successful team in the NHL over the past 3 years (Conference finals, first round exit, Stanley Cup Finals). Only Detroit and Pittsburgh have had more success than us.
You must absolutely hate the Pronger signing if you think the Zetterberg and Datsyuk contracts are bad.

However, lets run through your list.

- Traded Ville Leino to Philadelphia for OK Tollefsen and a 5th rounder

Seriously, they were going to have to put Leino on waivers and lose him for nothing and got a 5th rd. pick for him. That's good management. We put Metro on waivers and got nothing for him.

- Traded Shawn Mattias (future star) + two picks for Todd Bertuzzi

It was Matthias and a 2nd for Bertuzzi, not two picks, and that turned into Nick Spaling. And Matthias is a future star? Yet to show it.

- Signed Todd Bertuzzi (bad signing)

You think a 1-year 1.5M contract is a "bad signing"? Seriously?

- Signed Jason Williams (bad signing)

1.5M expiring... again. Seriously?

- Signed Patrick Eaves (bad signing)

He made 500K!!!! Seriously? I mean, really, 500K is a "bad signing?"

- Signed Andy Delmore (bad signing)

I mean, he never even dressed for the Red Wings... how can this possibly be a "bad signing," he was in the AHL and not counting against the cap. Again, a one year deal.

OK, now we get to some meat, because the above almost completely discredits your understanding of salary cap criticisms. You don't want to focus on 1-year, cheap deals...

- Johan Frazen to 11 year deal????

11 years, and 3.9M cap hit. Questionable deal given his age, but he can also retire out of it. Tough to judge based on this year, but if you're getting 30ish goals for 3.9M that's a good contract. He won't be producing that by the end, but who knows if he'll even be in the NHL.

- Henrik Zetterberg to 12 year deal????

Similar problem with age of signing, but Z for just over 6M isn't a bad cap hit... and he certainly would have gotten more on a shorter deal.

- Daniel Cleary 5 year deal????

Daniel Cleary... 2.8M cap hit. Strikes me as a good deal for a guy that has been pretty consistent in producing 40 pts for 'em and taking a regular shift.

- Datsyk 7 year deal???

7 years, at 6.7M. In the first two years of that contract, he produced 97 pts. This past year, he produced 70 with a team that was badly banged up... also is a big reason why they advanced to the 2nd rd. in the playoffs.

The deal will expire when he's 35.

That's a great friggin contract as far as I'm concerned.

So, you might have a point with Franzen and Zetterberg -- especially Franzen -- but even then the complaint is questionable. Both contracts allow the guy to retire, and the proliferation of such deals for other players forces GMs hands. Additionally, they represent efforts to keep together as much of his core as long as possible while keeping their cap hits as low as possible in the immediate.

EDIT: Just to compare Briere to the Zetterberg and Datsyuk signings. Briere has a 6.5M cap hit that carries with him until he's 37. In the first three years of that deal, he's produced 72, 25, and 53 pts, and gone -25. Datsyuk is +92 over that same span.


Last edited by Jester: 05-26-2010 at 12:23 PM.
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05-26-2010, 12:39 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAFF
We had the easiest possible trip to the SCF. No one can argue that.
There seems to be some confusion between "easiest" and "easy", which are not interchangeable. The Flyers still played 3 series of excellent hockey against quality opponents.

On Holmgren, I think he is one of the luckiest men in hockey this year, as this run essentially sprayed him with Teflon. He did great on the Leino deal, good on the Pronger deal (can't deny Pronger's leadership through these playoffs, but the price and the past-35 contract? Oy!), fluked out x 1000 on Leighton, and flatlined on handling the Jones affair. I will laud his signing of Boucher, who provided stellar play down the stretch to get this team into the playoffs and well into Round 2. Emery, for me, is a wash, given the nature of his injury. Plus, the six-degrees-of-Eminger deal that landed an expensive Carle for picks and young talent, resulting in the sacrifice of other players on the salary-cap altar, was as poor a case of asset-management that anyone not named Mike Milbury could have concocted.

Were I Mr. Snyder, I would assure Holmgren his desk come next season, but outline the absolute need to understand and manage the salary cap from now on, or else ...

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05-26-2010, 12:48 PM
  #269
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People want to talk about the Flyers getting good matchups thru the playoffs, that may be the case but I guess you could say that about alot of teams of recent memory. Look at the Pens last year.
Then you look at Chicago, their toughest opponent was Nashville who should have beat them if not for some monumental breakdowns by Nashville.
Chicago then matched up with Vancouver a matchup you could compare to the Philly/NJ matchup. Then they beat the Sharks in the West Final and we all know the history there. Dont want to take anything away from the Hawks and what they did, just like no one should take anything from what the Flyers did.
Both teams deserve to be in the Stanley Cup Final.

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05-26-2010, 12:56 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
People want to talk about the Flyers getting good matchups thru the playoffs, that may be the case but I guess you could say that about alot of teams of recent memory. Look at the Pens last year.
Then you look at Chicago, their toughest opponent was Nashville who should have beat them if not for some monumental breakdowns by Nashville.
Chicago then matched up with Vancouver a matchup you could compare to the Philly/NJ matchup. Then they beat the Sharks in the West Final and we all know the history there. Dont want to take anything away from the Hawks and what they did, just like no one should take anything from what the Flyers did.
Both teams deserve to be in the Stanley Cup Final.
Ah, what?

Pens went through us in the 1st round, and then the Caps in the 2nd round last year, before getting a slight reprieve in the 3rd rd. in Carolina... before beating Detroit. So, sure, they missed out on Boston, but they probably would have liked a different matchup in the first two rounds.

As to Chicago this year... lets begin by noting that the West was a murderously difficult group. Nashville, the 7 seed in the West had 100 pts. If they played in the East, they probably would have had home ice in the first round this year. They then beat the no. 3 seed, and sure the matchup favored 'em, but the Bruins they are not. Then the drew the no. 1 seed that had just dismantled the Red Wings, who came into the playoffs as one of the hottest teams in the NHL.

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05-26-2010, 01:45 PM
  #271
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I wasn't calling for his head either, I pointed out that he made a ton of big mistakes, but was able to remedy them (even if many of them were based on alot of luck - ie. Leighton) and also pointed out his faults as a GM that regardless of winning a cup this year will hurt us going forward unless he corrects them.

It is folly to give the guy a pass because of where the team is in now, but rather, the team and coaching staff should be that much more commended.

a few months ago...

Leighton was a career AHL/backup goalie
Leino was about to get cut from Detroit
Laviolette was fired from the league's worst team

Is Homer supposed to be praised for bringing them here and them working out? Is he the Nostradamus of the NHL? Or is it more likely that they just worked their balls off?
Leighton was 100% dumb luck on Holmgren's part for sure. Holmgren had no other options to get a goalie because he had no cap/asset flexibility and had to resort claiming a guy who was absolutely garbage before being waived this year. Leighton was just a depth move when he had no other options. He might have never even been given a chance if Boucher didn't get injured and could have been waived when Emery returned. It's extremely fortunate Leighton worked out as he has.

I think Holmgren deserves some credit for the other two, however. Laviolette was a good coach and runs a system that Holmgren envisioned when he built this team. It was a great move. I just don't know why he didn't do it in the summer since he had Lavi in mind when he offered him the Phantoms job then.

Leino was the classic low risk - high reward move. He was a highly skilled player the Red Wings organization were high on, but just didn't work out the way they expected this season. IMO a move like this is what a smart GM would do. I also think Leino could have had more of an impact sooner if Lavi had given him more of a chance during the regular season. He was placed on Briere's line a handful of times during the regular season and looked great, but then Lavi would sit him the next game.

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05-26-2010, 01:53 PM
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JESTER,
To clarify for me then - you don't like the 2009-2010 version of the Philadelphia Flyers? If that is so, then I understand your frustration. If you do like this team, then you have nothing to complain about......since it is 100% constructed by Paul Holmgren! Correct?

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05-26-2010, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
People want to talk about the Flyers getting good matchups thru the playoffs, that may be the case but I guess you could say that about alot of teams of recent memory. Look at the Pens last year.
Then you look at Chicago, their toughest opponent was Nashville who should have beat them if not for some monumental breakdowns by Nashville.
Chicago then matched up with Vancouver a matchup you could compare to the Philly/NJ matchup. Then they beat the Sharks in the West Final and we all know the history there. Dont want to take anything away from the Hawks and what they did, just like no one should take anything from what the Flyers did.
Both teams deserve to be in the Stanley Cup Final.
Don't get me wrong, I hear you. Both teams deserve to be here but there is no questioning the fact that the Flyers had the easiest road imaginable.

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05-26-2010, 02:01 PM
  #274
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Homer is a mediocre GM that has an eye for talent but horrible cap/pick management skills.

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05-26-2010, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You must absolutely hate the Pronger signing if you think the Zetterberg and Datsyuk contracts are bad. (Didn't say they bad - put a question mark to say....hmmmm

However, lets run through your list.

- Traded Ville Leino to Philadelphia for OK Tollefsen and a 5th rounder

Seriously, they were going to have to put Leino on waivers and lose him for nothing and got a 5th rd. pick for him. That's good management. We put Metro on waivers and got nothing for him.
- You are comparing Leino to Metro? We got a very good player because they mismanged the cap and HAD to trade him!

- Traded Shawn Mattias (future star) + two picks for Todd Bertuzzi

It was Matthias and a 2nd for Bertuzzi, not two picks, and that turned into Nick Spaling. And Matthias is a future star? Yet to show it.
- Incorrect, Shawn Mattias is rated 7.5 prospect on this site. A potential first line talent and hard worker

- Signed Todd Bertuzzi (bad signing)

You think a 1-year 1.5M contract is a "bad signing"? Seriously?
- Signed a bad player, not the contract!!!

- Signed Jason Williams (bad signing)

1.5M expiring... again. Seriously?
- SIgned a bad player, not the contract!!!

- Signed Patrick Eaves (bad signing)

He made 500K!!!! Seriously? I mean, really, 500K is a "bad signing?"
- Fair enough

- Signed Andy Delmore (bad signing)

I mean, he never even dressed for the Red Wings... how can this possibly be a "bad signing," he was in the AHL and not counting against the cap. Again, a one year deal.

OK, now we get to some meat, because the above almost completely discredits your understanding of salary cap criticisms. You don't want to focus on 1-year, cheap deals...
- Fair enough

- Johan Frazen to 11 year deal????

11 years, and 3.9M cap hit. Questionable deal given his age, but he can also retire out of it. Tough to judge based on this year, but if you're getting 30ish goals for 3.9M that's a good contract. He won't be producing that by the end, but who knows if he'll even be in the NHL.

- Cap hit is OK, again didn't say bad......said questionable. I would give a 10 year deal to Mike Richards, Sidney Crosby and maybe 10 other guys in the league. Not Franzen.
- Henrik Zetterberg to 12 year deal????

Similar problem with age of signing, but Z for just over 6M isn't a bad cap hit... and he certainly would have gotten more on a shorter deal.
- The way he plays, he may be "old" in 2 years, then he is on the books for another 10????
- Daniel Cleary 5 year deal????

Daniel Cleary... 2.8M cap hit. Strikes me as a good deal for a guy that has been pretty consistent in producing 40 pts for 'em and taking a regular shift.
- 5 years is too much to give a fourth line talent. Not to mention his personal problems off the ice which he has corrected, but he is a known substance abuse repeat offender.
- Datsyk 7 year deal???

7 years, at 6.7M. In the first two years of that contract, he produced 97 pts. This past year, he produced 70 with a team that was badly banged up... also is a big reason why they advanced to the 2nd rd. in the playoffs.

The deal will expire when he's 35.

That's a great friggin contract as far as I'm concerned.
- Fair enough. I would sign Datsyk for 7 years, again.....just questionable to give these kinds of deals. We will question the term if ANYONE gets 7-12 years in Philly. They are giving them to everyone in Detroit.

EDIT: Just to compare Briere to the Zetterberg and Datsyuk signings. Briere has a 6.5M cap hit that carries with him until he's 37. In the first three years of that deal, he's produced 72, 25, and 53 pts, and gone -25. Datsyuk is +92 over that same span.
- Daniel Briere was signed at a desparate time. Everyone was getting 7.5 million at that time and we gave him 8 years at 6.5. Turned out to be a good signing as he is a big reason for our playoff success since (he has been in conference finals 3 of the past 4 years)
If you look at the history of the red wings signings and trades, there is nothing. They build through the draft with European players. When they do pull off deals, they are not very good. There signings are questionable

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