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05-27-2010, 03:17 PM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Who was Gagne's linemates? I dont remember for sure, but I am pretty sure its not like someone like Betts or Madden. 3rd line/4th line guys who can put up some points but not many. You didnt answer my other question before the Giroux/JVR thing. Would you still want to roll with a shutdown line even if that line wont have shutdown players?

And on the draws thing, dont we have 3 out of our 4 centers this season over 50% in draws? You dont just grab a center, change up the formation, just because we are losing a few more draws then the other team (I dont know the stats, but it would be interesting to know where we are in regards to win draws vs loss percentage)
One of the main guys he was with was Primeau who had 22 points in 54 games, also think he might have played with Kaps a bit, but I have trouble remembering back especially since that team changed so much, probably had some time with JR.

I seem to remember Leclair-Zeus-Recchi being a line and obviously JR and Amonte played together.

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05-27-2010, 03:19 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Who was Gagne's linemates? I dont remember for sure, but I am pretty sure its not like someone like Betts or Madden. 3rd line/4th line guys who can put up some points but not many. You didnt answer my other question before the Giroux/JVR thing. Would you still want to roll with a shutdown line even if that line wont have shutdown players?
Primeau and Kapanen until he went to D (pretty sure it was Sami), both of whom attempted almost zero offense that season. Primeau made the ASG purely on defense alone. Gagne put up 45 pts, but a solid chunk of those came when he was called up to top 6 duty due to injury.

There is nothing wrong with young players earning their way into the top 6, and learning to play some defensive responsibility along the way.

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And on the draws thing, dont we have 3 out of our 4 centers this season over 50% in draws? You dont just grab a center, change up the formation, just because we are losing a few more draws then the other team (I dont know the stats, but it would be interesting to know where we are in regards to win draws vs loss percentage)
Beat to the punch above. And those don't even tell the full story... because Richards has been just flat pwned by good faceoff guys. We're 10th in the playoffs in FO%.

On the upside, Chicago is only 8th... but that doesn't really tell the whole story, because Toews is money on draws... winning at 57.9% in the playoffs.

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05-27-2010, 03:21 PM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
One of the main guys he was with was Primeau who had 22 points in 54 games, also think he might have played with Kaps a bit, but I have trouble remembering back especially since that team changed so much, probably had some time with JR.

I seem to remember Leclair-Zeus-Recchi being a line and obviously JR and Amonte played together.
Yep, and then Zhamnov centered JR and Amonte after JR came back from the jaw injury.

Then you had a 4th line of Somik, Brashear, Sharp (someone else was involved, but I forget who).

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05-27-2010, 04:41 PM
  #304
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i'd love to see 'zus come back, he is slower than ever but still a defensive machine and a brilliant player who makes his linemates better no matter what type of player they are.

this year i didn't see an ideal fit as a third line center, no one who was a big improvement over betts at least.

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05-27-2010, 04:56 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There is nothing wrong with young players earning their way into the top 6, and learning to play some defensive responsibility along the way.
It seems like I am always engaging you in disagreement, but this time I have to say, effin' eh man. I can't tell you how annoying it is when I hear people talk about ruining prospects by playing them on the third line.

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05-27-2010, 06:17 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
It seems like I am always engaging you in disagreement, but this time I have to say, effin' eh man. I can't tell you how annoying it is when I hear people talk about ruining prospects by playing them on the third line.
I think it comes out of some prospects, that do get into that role, not turning into offensive juggernauts at some later date... what people don't consider is that some prospects aren't going to become offensive juggernauts not matter how much potential they supposedly had. So, obviously some of those folks aren't going to turn into 40-goal scorers... but it doesn't necessarily mean playing on the 3rd line in their early 20s is the reason that happened.

Do we really think JVR isn't going to develop as a NHL player just because he has a 40 pt guy centering him? If that's the case, then he wasn't all that special to begin with... It isn't like Giroux doesn't create chances with Asham.

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05-27-2010, 06:37 PM
  #307
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the problem is when a guy gets buried in bottom six duty when he could be playing 20 minutes a night in the AHL. that does happen, it is a problem, however i think such situations are pointed to much more often than they are actually an issue.

plus bottom six guys with loads of talent always find their way into special teams time that let them take advantage of it.

thank god we didnt post this in the columbus forum or we'd be papered with comments about gilbert brule or some other forgettable dude they drafted sky high and "ruined"

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05-27-2010, 07:04 PM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Who was Gagne's linemates? I dont remember for sure, but I am pretty sure its not like someone like Betts or Madden. 3rd line/4th line guys who can put up some points but not many. You didnt answer my other question before the Giroux/JVR thing. Would you still want to roll with a shutdown line even if that line wont have shutdown players?

And on the draws thing, dont we have 3 out of our 4 centers this season over 50% in draws? You dont just grab a center, change up the formation, just because we are losing a few more draws then the other team (I dont know the stats, but it would be interesting to know where we are in regards to win draws vs loss percentage)
I think his center was Primeau and the other wing varied between Sami, Brash, or JR (after Zhamnov was acquired) depending on matchups and who was hot.

You don't necessarily need a third line traditional 3rd line center (madden, holik, Malholta) as much as having a player willing to buy into taking the defensively responsibility of playing the other teams top line. Primeau did that, Yzerman is the best example of it, and Richards can do it.

Flyers problem is the match up with PITT with Crosby (good size), Malkin (Big), and Staal (real big). Do you design your team to beat one team or just roll out your best players for your style of play.

Salary cap and contract extension may make the point mute anyway.

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05-27-2010, 07:58 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yep, and then Zhamnov centered JR and Amonte after JR came back from the jaw injury.

Then you had a 4th line of Somik, Brashear, Sharp (someone else was involved, but I forget who).
Branko?

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05-27-2010, 11:51 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by lancer247 View Post
I think his center was Primeau and the other wing varied between Sami, Brash, or JR (after Zhamnov was acquired) depending on matchups and who was hot.

You don't necessarily need a third line traditional 3rd line center (madden, holik, Malholta) as much as having a player willing to buy into taking the defensively responsibility of playing the other teams top line. Primeau did that, Yzerman is the best example of it, and Richards can do it.

Flyers problem is the match up with PITT with Crosby (good size), Malkin (Big), and Staal (real big). Do you design your team to beat one team or just roll out your best players for your style of play.

Salary cap and contract extension may make the point mute anyway.
Flyers problem is finding the right guys to play wing with Carter and Richards. Gagne is most likely staying with Richards, but otherwise it changes constantly. The reason everyone is clicking now is cause Briere is back at center, Briere didnt work well on the wing with Carter, and you dont really want him with Richards full time cause of Richards and Gagne getting defensive assignments....and they dont seem to want him playing with Giroux at even strength.

I think they can get away with it again next year, but in my opinion, the following year they need to move either Giroux or Carter to the wing, or trade one of them.

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05-28-2010, 07:47 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
Branko?
Yep, Radio. Shouldn't have forgot him, he hit on a friend of mine's sister.

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05-28-2010, 10:12 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
Flyers problem is finding the right guys to play wing with Carter and Richards. Gagne is most likely staying with Richards, but otherwise it changes constantly. The reason everyone is clicking now is cause Briere is back at center, Briere didnt work well on the wing with Carter, and you dont really want him with Richards full time cause of Richards and Gagne getting defensive assignments....and they dont seem to want him playing with Giroux at even strength.

I think they can get away with it again next year, but in my opinion, the following year they need to move either Giroux or Carter to the wing, or trade one of them.
I'd stick Giroux between Briere and Leino next year. Briere has shown great chemistry with both, no chemistry with Carter, and not enough defense to play with Richards. Maybe you'd think a guy that expensive needs more minutes than that, but I'd rather get the most out of him that I can than force him into minutes that just aren't working. That leaves Hartnell and someone (Carcillo?) with Carter and Gagne and JVR with Richards. Maybe swap JVR and Carcillo if you want. It's not ideal, but our roster is screwy to start with, so there's no fixing that without changing things up.

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05-28-2010, 10:33 AM
  #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
On the upside, Chicago is only 8th... but that doesn't really tell the whole story, because Toews is money on draws... winning at 57.9% in the playoffs.
He has to be taking a lot of them, given the minutes he gets, so that raises the question, how badly does the rest of his team suck at them to bring them down to 8th?

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05-28-2010, 10:35 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by CantSeeColors View Post
I'd stick Giroux between Briere and Leino next year. Briere has shown great chemistry with both, no chemistry with Carter, and not enough defense to play with Richards. Maybe you'd think a guy that expensive needs more minutes than that, but I'd rather get the most out of him that I can than force him into minutes that just aren't working. That leaves Hartnell and someone (Carcillo?) with Carter and Gagne and JVR with Richards. Maybe swap JVR and Carcillo if you want. It's not ideal, but our roster is screwy to start with, so there's no fixing that without changing things up.
I mean, when healthy... Briere and Carter were fine together. While Briere's assist totals were down a bit this year, his drop in points is largely due to him getting less from the PP than he has in previous years. He had 17 pts on the PP this year, compared to 37 his first season in Philly, and 30, 28, and 27 the years before that in Buffalo.

He actually had more even strength points this year than he did when he put up 72 here a couple years ago.

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05-28-2010, 10:42 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
He has to be taking a lot of them, given the minutes he gets, so that raises the question, how badly does the rest of his team suck at them to bring them down to 8th?
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll

Actually, not that bad... Sharp and Madden are both hovering at 50%. What is shocking is that Bolland has done terribly (38.5%) yet taken 213 draws... 2nd on the team. During the regular season, Toews was just as good, so it isn't a mirage that he's putting up those numbers. Bolland operated at 49.4%.

So, it might just be that Bolland was getting pwned by the really good faceoff guys in SJ or something (I wasn't paying enough attention to tell you one way or the other). I mean, SJ has three extremely good faceoff guys, and Thornton is no slouch... and then you even have Marleau, who is good on draws but playing wing at this point.

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05-28-2010, 10:56 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...fPercentageAll

Actually, not that bad... Sharp and Madden are both hovering at 50%. What is shocking is that Bolland has done terribly (38.5%) yet taken 213 draws... 2nd on the team. During the regular season, Toews was just as good, so it isn't a mirage that he's putting up those numbers. Bolland operated at 49.4%.

So, it might just be that Bolland was getting pwned by the really good faceoff guys in SJ or something (I wasn't paying enough attention to tell you one way or the other). I mean, SJ has three extremely good faceoff guys, and Thornton is no slouch... and then you even have Marleau, who is good on draws but playing wing at this point.
Sounds right regarding Bolland. I know Pavelski and Malhotra both had announcers gushing about their ability to win draws.

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05-28-2010, 11:02 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Sounds right regarding Bolland. I know Pavelski and Malhotra both had announcers gushing about their ability to win draws.
Malhotra is a machine. I didn't realize Pavelski was putting up the faceoff numbers he's been doing. 58.1%, 56.3%, 53.5%, 48.6%... I mean, he's trending towards being one of those 60% ******** that just kill you when you really need the puck late in the game.

In other news, Matt Carle was 100% on draws for SJ in '07-'08.

I would like to know how that happened.

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05-28-2010, 11:18 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Malhotra is a machine. I didn't realize Pavelski was putting up the faceoff numbers he's been doing. 58.1%, 56.3%, 53.5%, 48.6%... I mean, he's trending towards being one of those 60% ******** that just kill you when you really need the puck late in the game.

In other news, Matt Carle was 100% on draws for SJ in '07-'08.

I would like to know how that happened.
Curious to know this too..

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05-31-2010, 11:39 PM
  #319
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2 horrible goaltending performances and 1 serious Krajicek ****up later...

The thing is that we have a nice core, but if you don't round out the edges, it's going to cost us.

- We haven't had a decent 3rd pairing all season
- We haven't had a decent 3rd line C all season
- We haven't had consistent goaltending all season.

Guess which 3 things are costing us in the Finals.

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05-31-2010, 11:55 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
2 horrible goaltending performances and 1 serious Krajicek ****up later...

The thing is that we have a nice core, but if you don't round out the edges, it's going to cost us.

- We haven't had a decent 3rd pairing all season
- We haven't had a decent 3rd line C all season
- We haven't had consistent goaltending all season.

Guess which 3 things are costing us in the Finals.
Well what do the Flyers want to look for in a 3rd line center? Is rolling 3 scoring lines truly the way to go? We have 4 very capable offensive centers on this team, 3 of which were thrown to the wings to try and balance out the lines and all 3 are better (offensively) at the center position.

In a perfect world, with all skaters playing to their potentials, the top 2 lines should be:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Carter - Briere

But look where it puts us. JVR, Leino and Carcillo (who is borderline top 9) are left out of the top lines.

We are just too loaded with top 9 talent. They talk about our depth but is our depth incorporated correctly?

Hope this made sense.

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06-01-2010, 12:11 AM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
2 horrible goaltending performances and 1 serious Krajicek ****up later...

The thing is that we have a nice core, but if you don't round out the edges, it's going to cost us.

- We haven't had a decent 3rd pairing all season
- We haven't had a decent 3rd line C all season
- We haven't had consistent goaltending all season.

Guess which 3 things are costing us in the Finals.
having that 3rd pairing that you can depend on is something that alot of us including myself had concerns about going into this series. If you dont have that 5/6 defenseman you can depend on it can no doubt hurt you. There is no way we can go 6-7 games playing Pronger 30 plus minutes every night. You can get away with it against NJ, Boston ect but Chicago? they will exploit it.
I think when the series goes back to Philly, Carter has to go back to Center. Gotta try something differant to get the top line going.

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06-01-2010, 12:56 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Cleary84 View Post
Well what do the Flyers want to look for in a 3rd line center? Is rolling 3 scoring lines truly the way to go? We have 4 very capable offensive centers on this team, 3 of which were thrown to the wings to try and balance out the lines and all 3 are better (offensively) at the center position.

In a perfect world, with all skaters playing to their potentials, the top 2 lines should be:

Gagne - Richards - Giroux
Hartnell - Carter - Briere

But look where it puts us. JVR, Leino and Carcillo (who is borderline top 9) are left out of the top lines.

We are just too loaded with top 9 talent. They talk about our depth but is our depth incorporated correctly?

Hope this made sense.
The fix to this "problem" is to make Richards and Gagne our "3rd line" and match them up against other team's top scoring lines along with our shut down 4th line, like, you know, we already do?

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