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Ovechkin with team Russia - mediocre in important games

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Old
05-25-2010, 07:38 PM
  #151
BigT2002
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I don't think he would hurt to learn a lesson for Federov with how to play better 2-way hockey though. It appears he really is focused more on scoring (But who wouldn't) than taking the puck in the mouth and losing some teeth to save the goal. Then again....should he be the one who is doing that? Fact remains, he plays on soft teams. I wanna know where the defensive edge is on these teams. Who is it? What line are they playing on? Who are they being pitted against? Ovi will never be the only "reason" why his team fails, but if he is the best player on the ice.....he better ensure that his team is backing him up. Right now, he is failing them as much as they are him

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05-25-2010, 07:43 PM
  #152
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Ovechkin could play some better "two-way" hockey, but at a point you have to ask yourself if trying to turn a winger who's the best offensive player in the game, into a "two way" player actually decreases his overall value. Wingers are out there to score, that's where their value lies, which is something a lot of people on here don't seem to realize. It's just food for thought.

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05-25-2010, 08:40 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
this is just completely wrong, but it's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind. Here's something that is going to blow your mind- aside from Game 7 against the Capitals, Crosby hasn't been any better in "big games" than Ovechkin. What's the difference? Other players have stepped up when he's been absent, that's the bottom line. AO was excellent against Philly in game 7, solid against the Rangers despite not showing up on the scoresheet, mediocre or worse against Pittsburgh despite scoring a goal, and awesome in Game 7 against the Habs where his tying goal was inexplicably disallowed. As for the "lazy and careless plays in big games", which ones are you referring to aside from the Crosby breakaway against Pittsburgh? I don't know where you guys are getting the "bad in big games" nonsense. Aren't the people claiming that also the ones claiming that it's not all about the scoresheet, and how you need to watch the games? I guess that's only when it serves your interests...
Crosby has been average in big games. Ovechkin has been bad.

How about when Ovechkin gives the puck away then watches staal skate circles around him and go on to score? Or his giveaways in the Olympics and terrible backchecking on 2 goals against Canada. Or his lazy change vs Montreal that lead to a goal.Or knocking Fedorov over and causing the Czechs to score the deciding goal.

There is an obvious pattern there. You are too blind to see it.

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05-25-2010, 09:48 PM
  #154
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Gotta love the great divide.

Either you like Crosby or Ovechkin and ne'er shall the tween meet.


Screw you guys Malkin is better than both.

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05-25-2010, 10:33 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
Crosby has been average in big games. Ovechkin has been bad.

How about when Ovechkin gives the puck away then watches staal skate circles around him and go on to score? Or his giveaways in the Olympics and terrible backchecking on 2 goals against Canada. Or his lazy change vs Montreal that lead to a goal.Or knocking Fedorov over and causing the Czechs to score the deciding goal.

There is an obvious pattern there. You are too blind to see it.
You may be thinking about Malkin there. Which Staal in which game? It's funny you also name a completely fluke of a play from the Czech game. Great analysis as always. Listen, the guy's an offensive winger, he takes chances, he'll take the occasional long shift, nobody said he was perfect. As a result of that, when he ****s up it's usually pretty glaring, and nobody hesitates to pounce on him. His mistakes are even more costly when the defense behind him (LOL Corvo) couldn't defend a traffic cone. In spite of all this his defensive numbers simply aren't bad. In all honesty I think Crosby and Ovechkin have played very similarly in big games. The difference is one gets praised for being some clutch superstar, while the other gets railroaded for not knowing how to win, and not being able to show up, etc.

I mean, you're naming a mistake from Game 1 of the ECQF as evidence that he's "bad in big games", but not bringing up how good he has been in other playoff series. My point is that his positives VASTLY outweigh the occasional gaffe that everyone loves to bring up at the drop of a hat. The only difference is that if you bring up his hat trick against Pittsburgh in game 2 people say "well that's only game 2", but on the other hand you're bringing up crap from Game 1 of the first round in support of your position. This is why I hate the term "big game" because the definition is so arbitrary. Both 8 and 87 are excellent in the playoffs, and both play well in "big games", but when it comes to those big games the opposing team 100% game plans for those two players. That makes secondary scoring so important. At this point in their careers Crosby's been fortunate to get much more of that than Ovechkin, which is why Pittsburgh has been so successful in the playoffs so far. Also, you should compare their numbers in elimination games, I think you'll be surprised with what you see.

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05-26-2010, 12:25 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
You may be thinking about Malkin there. Which Staal in which game? It's funny you also name a completely fluke of a play from the Czech game. Great analysis as always. Listen, the guy's an offensive winger, he takes chances, he'll take the occasional long shift, nobody said he was perfect. As a result of that, when he ****s up it's usually pretty glaring, and nobody hesitates to pounce on him. His mistakes are even more costly when the defense behind him (LOL Corvo) couldn't defend a traffic cone. In spite of all this his defensive numbers simply aren't bad. In all honesty I think Crosby and Ovechkin have played very similarly in big games. The difference is one gets praised for being some clutch superstar, while the other gets railroaded for not knowing how to win, and not being able to show up, etc.

I mean, you're naming a mistake from Game 1 of the ECQF as evidence that he's "bad in big games", but not bringing up how good he has been in other playoff series. My point is that his positives VASTLY outweigh the occasional gaffe that everyone loves to bring up at the drop of a hat. The only difference is that if you bring up his hat trick against Pittsburgh in game 2 people say "well that's only game 2", but on the other hand you're bringing up crap from Game 1 of the first round in support of your position. This is why I hate the term "big game" because the definition is so arbitrary. Both 8 and 87 are excellent in the playoffs, and both play well in "big games", but when it comes to those big games the opposing team 100% game plans for those two players. That makes secondary scoring so important. At this point in their careers Crosby's been fortunate to get much more of that than Ovechkin, which is why Pittsburgh has been so successful in the playoffs so far. Also, you should compare their numbers in elimination games, I think you'll be surprised with what you see.
First of all, it's Ovechkin I'm thinking of, on both the Weber goal where he stopped moving his feet and gave the lane away and Nash goal where he was 1 step behind him then gave no effort to backcheck at all. Backchecking pressure is CRUCIAL against skilled guys.

The Staal goal, you know, jordan staal in game 7 when he scored to make it 5-0 midway through the second. At 2:44.


What, pray tell, is your excuse for him there?

The hit on Fedorov was unlucky, but what was Ovechkin doing in that lane anyways? There were already 2 russians on the puck.

But those are just major flaws and highlights. But I've watched TONS of caps games, they are one of my favorite teams to watch, and there is a pattern of Ovechkin being lazy on the backcheck, lacking defensive awareness, and giving the puck away in bad areas. Though, in that last regard, he's not nearly as bad as Malkin.

Ovechkin has had more secondary support for 2-3+ years now. The only year where Crosby had more help was his rookie year. Secondary scoring was not the reason the Pens won the Cup. No one else on the team had more than 15 points in 24 games!!!! Thats about a 50 point pace. Now look at the Caps. This season, they had 7 20 goal scorers, and 7 guys over 50 points (many of whom missed 10-15 games).

But please, continue to make excuses for Ovechkin.

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05-26-2010, 01:17 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
The Staal goal, you know, jordan staal in game 7 when he scored to make it 5-0 midway through the second. At 2:44.


What, pray tell, is your excuse for him there?
That was a very soft play. That team was dead though. It was 4-0, and it felt even worse than that.

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The hit on Fedorov was unlucky, but what was Ovechkin doing in that lane anyways? There were already 2 russians on the puck.
Meh, not really. That was a quickly developing, strange play in the slot, and the puck was up for grabs with Ovechkin and Fedorov right there. It's grasping at straws to really try to find fault on that one.

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But those are just major flaws and highlights. But I've watched TONS of caps games, they are one of my favorite teams to watch, and there is a pattern of Ovechkin being lazy on the backcheck, lacking defensive awareness, and giving the puck away in bad areas. Though, in that last regard, he's not nearly as bad as Malkin.

Ovechkin has had more secondary support for 2-3+ years now. The only year where Crosby had more help was his rookie year. Secondary scoring was not the reason the Pens won the Cup. No one else on the team had more than 15 points in 24 games!!!! Thats about a 50 point pace. Now look at the Caps. This season, they had 7 20 goal scorers, and 7 guys over 50 points (many of whom missed 10-15 games).

But please, continue to make excuses for Ovechkin.
We're talking about the playoffs slick. Ya know, where nobody other than Ovechkin and Backstrom showed up offensively when they needed it? I'm very impressed with Green, Semin, Flash, and Brooks Laich for putting up all those goals and points in the season but that amounted to **** all in the playoffs this year. As for your noone had more than 15 pts, well that kinda proves my point. Nevermind that 2 separate guys topped 30 pts (which may just win the Conn Smythe in any given year), but in the close games a bunch of different guys chipped in on huge goals. Letang, Gonchar, Guerin, Adams goal in Game 7 was a dagger, Jordan Staal, and let's not forget Max F'ing Talbot. Hell, even Fedotenko potted a few goals. We are talking about playoffs here, and you bring up regular season goal totals. The Caps got no scoring from the so-called "scoring depth" in the postseason. Malkin and Crosby did their thing, but the pluggers put them over the top.

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05-26-2010, 01:40 AM
  #158
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I mean I have no idea what you're talking about. You claim he's "bad" in the playoffs when he's around 1.5PPG in the playoffs. Or you claimed he was bad in "big games" while Crosby's "average", when Ovechkin has better numbers and a better record in elimination games. Posting the same 2 videos isn't a very strong case either. Maybe I should just start posting videos of Sid being on the ice for all 4 goals against in the game 6 against Ottawa (though one was called back woo hoo), or committing a retarded boarding penalty leading to a goal in Game 7 against MTL, then being a -2. Or being bad in the entire SCF then leaving Game 7 after getting put into the boards. See what I did there? They're both very good in the playoffs, distinguishing one as clutch and the other as a choker and trying to jump through hoops to rationalize it is weak sauce when they've performed at remarkably similar levels.

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05-26-2010, 02:01 AM
  #159
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Ovechkin's year just keeps getting worse, haha. Got suspended twice, lost 7-3 to Canada at the Olympics, lost the Art Ross to Sedin, lost the Richard to Crosby/Stamkos, lost in the first round of the playoffs and now this.
You forgot his injury during the Colombus game

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05-26-2010, 02:06 AM
  #160
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Oh, another Crosby vs Ovechkin thread. How cute.

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05-26-2010, 04:55 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
Ovechkin could play some better "two-way" hockey, but at a point you have to ask yourself if trying to turn a winger who's the best offensive player in the game, into a "two way" player actually decreases his overall value. Wingers are out there to score, that's where their value lies, which is something a lot of people on here don't seem to realize. It's just food for thought.
If this thread could be kept civil, this is the point that needs to be discussed.

Should Ovechkin be allowed the freedom to be all out offense given his talent? It's works great in the regular season but it can burn you in tight, playoff-type hockey. Sure, he'll get his points, which he has for the most part in the NHL playoffs, but if he doesn't get his points, he's a liability with his poor defensive play.

What do you do if you are the coach?

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05-26-2010, 05:43 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
If this thread could be kept civil, this is the point that needs to be discussed.

Should Ovechkin be allowed the freedom to be all out offense given his talent? It's works great in the regular season but it can burn you in tight, playoff-type hockey. Sure, he'll get his points, which he has for the most part in the NHL playoffs, but if he doesn't get his points, he's a liability with his poor defensive play.

What do you do if you are the coach?
ovechkin adding more defensive awareness would just make him a better player. it won't reduce the offensive threat that much that it should even be an issue. i am sure ovie would gladly sacrifice some personal stats for a better rounded game that would help his team to win games.

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05-26-2010, 10:50 AM
  #163
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ovechkin adding more defensive awareness would just make him a better player. it won't reduce the offensive threat that much that it should even be an issue. i am sure ovie would gladly sacrifice some personal stats for a better rounded game that would help his team to win games.

Why are you sure of that? He may be the most selfish player in NHL history. The problem is he needs a gritty veteran team to cover up for his one dimensional game. The Caps are constructed wrong. All offense, all soft. A team like that can't win come playoff time. Give him a tough, hard working team and let him just focus on scoring.

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05-26-2010, 11:02 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
Oh please, Crosby was a complete and total non-factor in the gold medal game, like he had been against Russia and Slovakia as well. A soft goal allowed by Ryan Miller doesn't really change that, just like Ovechkin scoring a goal against Pitt in game 7 doesn't mean he wasn't mediocre or worse in that game. As for your other points, Ovechkin is much better than "below average" defensively simply because he's so dominant offensively. In hockey the best defense really is a good offense, no matter how much people here don't want to believe it. There's a reason why Ovechkin's Corsi numbers are always so good- because when he has the puck the Caps are in the opponent's zone. Finally, I find it extremely hard to believe that you claim to have watched his "big games" and still claim he "doesn't try". I just can't believe it.
Yeah, except for scoring the game winning goal he was a total non factor.Funny how those great players always seem to be in the right place at the right time. Difference between the two players is Hockey IQ. Crosby's got it, AO doesn't. Ovechkin would probably be putting up almost Gretzky/Lemieux numbers if he wasn't such a waterhead.

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05-26-2010, 11:07 AM
  #165
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Why are you sure of that? He may be the most selfish player in NHL history. The problem is he needs a gritty veteran team to cover up for his one dimensional game. The Caps are constructed wrong. All offense, all soft. A team like that can't win come playoff time. Give him a tough, hard working team and let him just focus on scoring.
He'll realize it soon enough if he hasn't already that selfishness will carry you just so far. i agree that the caps are built the wrong way and they would need to start having some defensive strategy if they want to succeed in the post-season. but that's another topic.

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05-26-2010, 11:08 AM
  #166
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I mean I have no idea what you're talking about. You claim he's "bad" in the playoffs when he's around 1.5PPG in the playoffs. Or you claimed he was bad in "big games" while Crosby's "average", when Ovechkin has better numbers and a better record in elimination games. Posting the same 2 videos isn't a very strong case either. Maybe I should just start posting videos of Sid being on the ice for all 4 goals against in the game 6 against Ottawa (though one was called back woo hoo), or committing a retarded boarding penalty leading to a goal in Game 7 against MTL, then being a -2. Or being bad in the entire SCF then leaving Game 7 after getting put into the boards. See what I did there? They're both very good in the playoffs, distinguishing one as clutch and the other as a choker and trying to jump through hoops to rationalize it is weak sauce when they've performed at remarkably similar levels.

The problem here is that you are trying to use `numbers` to prove your point. Unfortunately this is not baseball, and stats have little (read none) meaning in hockey.

In the end, People see Crosby as better because he scored the GM winning goal in OT. He `won`and AO didn`t. It`s really as simple as that.

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05-26-2010, 11:16 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
I mean I have no idea what you're talking about. You claim he's "bad" in the playoffs when he's around 1.5PPG in the playoffs. Or you claimed he was bad in "big games" while Crosby's "average", when Ovechkin has better numbers and a better record in elimination games. Posting the same 2 videos isn't a very strong case either. Maybe I should just start posting videos of Sid being on the ice for all 4 goals against in the game 6 against Ottawa (though one was called back woo hoo), or committing a retarded boarding penalty leading to a goal in Game 7 against MTL, then being a -2. Or being bad in the entire SCF then leaving Game 7 after getting put into the boards. See what I did there? They're both very good in the playoffs, distinguishing one as clutch and the other as a choker and trying to jump through hoops to rationalize it is weak sauce when they've performed at remarkably similar levels.
I don't know why you keep mentioning Crosby, I said nothing of him in my post.

I also don't know why you are mentioning offensive output, as obviously Ovechkin has scored well in the playoffs. He has been a very good playoff performer save for 2 or 3 games. Unfortunately, those were huge games for his team, and he didn't lead them to victory. But he has also been bad in other NON NHL games. The Olympics, WC, and 2005 WJC exemplify that.

You sit around and say "Ovechkin always gives 110%" then don't even address plays where he doesn't. Instead, you attack Crosby out some sort of insecurity.

This is a thread about Ovechkin, let's keep it that way.

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05-26-2010, 11:16 AM
  #168
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Since I'm definitely not a Caps or a Russian fan, I sincerely hope that Ovechkin keeps playing the way he always has. That will make both me, and MattBradleyKO, apparently very happy.

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05-26-2010, 11:23 AM
  #169
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I just find it hilarious that people are talking about Ovechkin tanking with team Russia on a forum for a tournament where Russia was 2-time defending champs, and had won 27 games in a row.

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05-26-2010, 02:37 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Egostick View Post
Why are you sure of that? He may be the most selfish player in NHL history. The problem is he needs a gritty veteran team to cover up for his one dimensional game. The Caps are constructed wrong. All offense, all soft. A team like that can't win come playoff time. Give him a tough, hard working team and let him just focus on scoring.
LOL this is great stuff. He's a consistent 50 assist guy yet is "selfish". At times this season he could have been accused of overpassing. I saw it a ton of times.

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The problem here is that you are trying to use `numbers` to prove your point. Unfortunately this is not baseball, and stats have little (read none) meaning in hockey.

In the end, People see Crosby as better because he scored the GM winning goal in OT. He `won`and AO didn`t. It`s really as simple as that.
Stats don't mean everything, but they CERTAINLY don't have zero value like you're saying. As for your second point, you're entitled to your opinion, but that's a terrible way to look at things. If you can't see why then you're truly lost.

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I don't know why you keep mentioning Crosby, I said nothing of him in my post.

I also don't know why you are mentioning offensive output, as obviously Ovechkin has scored well in the playoffs. He has been a very good playoff performer save for 2 or 3 games. Unfortunately, those were huge games for his team, and he didn't lead them to victory. But he has also been bad in other NON NHL games. The Olympics, WC, and 2005 WJC exemplify that.

You sit around and say "Ovechkin always gives 110%" then don't even address plays where he doesn't. Instead, you attack Crosby out some sort of insecurity.

This is a thread about Ovechkin, let's keep it that way.
Well the point is that all these threads about him being a choker, and not a big performer in big games keep popping up. You have two players that are constantly compared to one another in Crosby and Ovechkin, and according to the majority of posters here they are quite literally on the opposite ends of the "clutch" spectrum. That is simply inexplicable given how they've both performed at elite levels. It makes even less sense considering how Ovechkin has statistically outperformed the guy, who's the god of clutch on these boards, both overall AND in elimination games albeit over a smaller sample size. You don't seem to want to address that point. If you want to keep repeating the mantra that "stats don't matter in hockey" then feel free, but just know that you're completely wrong, like I would be wrong if I said that only stats matter in hockey. I just find it telling that the vast majority of the "stats don't matter" crowd are on the bandwagon of the player who is consistently statistically outproduced, offensively and defensively (omg what?!?), in virtually every way.

Either way, this is getting pretty old. Respond if you want, but I'm going to try to leave this thread now.


Last edited by William H Bonney: 05-26-2010 at 02:44 PM.
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05-26-2010, 02:57 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post


Stats don't mean everything, but they CERTAINLY don't have zero value like you're saying. As for your second point, you're entitled to your opinion, but that's a terrible way to look at things. If you can't see why then you're truly lost.



Well the point is that all these threads about him being a choker, and not a big performer in big games keep popping up. You have two players that are constantly compared to one another in Crosby and Ovechkin, and according to the majority of posters here they are quite literally on the opposite ends of the "clutch" spectrum. That is simply inexplicable given how they've both performed at elite levels. It makes even less sense considering how Ovechkin has statistically outperformed the guy, who's the god of clutch on these boards, both overall AND in elimination games albeit over a smaller sample size. You don't seem to want to address that point. If you want to keep repeating the mantra that "stats don't matter in hockey" then feel free, but just know that you're completely wrong, like I would be wrong if I said that only stats matter in hockey. I just find it telling that the vast majority of the "stats don't matter" crowd are on the bandwagon of the player who is consistently statistically outproduced, offensively and defensively (omg what?!?), in virtually every way.

Either way, this is getting pretty old. Respond if you want, but I'm going to try to leave this thread now.
ummm hockey is a fluid chaotic system. Attempting to use stats to predict future behavior of the system is....insane.

Other than that, they are OK. You can slice the data, rotate it, isolate it etc

As for my Crosby comment, MattBradleyKO, I was mentioning that is what 'people' tend to believe. Not necessarily me.

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05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
  #172
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ummm hockey is a fluid chaotic system. Attempting to use stats to predict future behavior of the system is....insane.
Meh, not really.

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Other than that, they are OK. You can slice the data, rotate it, isolate it etc

As for my Crosby comment, MattBradleyKO, I was mentioning that is what 'people' tend to believe. Not necessarily me.
K. It's still a very simplistic and uneducated way to look at things though.

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05-26-2010, 03:14 PM
  #173
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Meh, not really.

I'm gonna do us both a favor and ignore this.....

K. It's still a very simplistic and uneducated way to look at things though.
I'm commenting on something I've observed. Most (Canadian anyway) casual hockey fans will tell you Crosby is better because 'he's won'. It's kind of hard to argue with this kind of circular logic. You see it in this thread too...

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05-26-2010, 05:06 PM
  #174
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I'm commenting on something I've observed. Most (Canadian anyway) casual hockey fans will tell you Crosby is better because 'he's won'. It's kind of hard to argue with this kind of circular logic. You see it in this thread too...
Absolutely agree.

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05-29-2010, 02:05 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson View Post
First of all, it's Ovechkin I'm thinking of, on both the Weber goal where he stopped moving his feet and gave the lane away and Nash goal where he was 1 step behind him then gave no effort to backcheck at all. Backchecking pressure is CRUCIAL against skilled guys.

The Staal goal, you know, jordan staal in game 7 when he scored to make it 5-0 midway through the second. At 2:44.


What, pray tell, is your excuse for him there?

The hit on Fedorov was unlucky, but what was Ovechkin doing in that lane anyways? There were already 2 russians on the puck.

But those are just major flaws and highlights. But I've watched TONS of caps games, they are one of my favorite teams to watch, and there is a pattern of Ovechkin being lazy on the backcheck, lacking defensive awareness, and giving the puck away in bad areas. Though, in that last regard, he's not nearly as bad as Malkin.

Ovechkin has had more secondary support for 2-3+ years now. The only year where Crosby had more help was his rookie year. Secondary scoring was not the reason the Pens won the Cup. No one else on the team had more than 15 points in 24 games!!!! Thats about a 50 point pace. Now look at the Caps. This season, they had 7 20 goal scorers, and 7 guys over 50 points (many of whom missed 10-15 games).

But please, continue to make excuses for Ovechkin.
how is that ovechkins fault the winger isnt supposed to be in front of the net thats the defensmens job

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