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Old
05-30-2010, 10:24 PM
  #1
Ched Brosky
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Van-Phi

Canucks fan I come in peace.

I was wondering a deal like this could work out.

To Phi:
Kevin Bieksa
Steve Bernier
Darcy Hordichuk

To Van:
rights to RFA Braydon Coburn
Scott Hartnell
rights to UFA Aaron Asham

Bieksa is a more offensive version of Coburn
Hartnell is a more offensive version of Bernier
and Hordichuk and Asham are basically the same

I'm thinking the Canucks might need to add a little more maybe a mid level prospect or Schneider and have Philly and something else in?

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05-30-2010, 10:29 PM
  #2
BillyShoe1721
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That's 3 pieces that don't really have any value to us. No reason to swap Coburn and Bieksa, Coburn is younger, healthier, better defensively, has better size, and more upside. We lose there, Bernier is a watered down, much worse version of Hartnell. Hordichuk has no place on this team so we have no use for him. The rights to Asham aren't worth anything. We lose this trade, and wouldn't really be interested in it, even if you added Schneider.

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05-30-2010, 10:37 PM
  #3
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That's a pretty awful deal, dude.

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Old
05-30-2010, 10:49 PM
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Through in a number one and its a deal.

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05-30-2010, 10:50 PM
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How bout Parent for Schneider straight up?

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05-30-2010, 11:06 PM
  #6
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Terrible.

How about:

Parent + Hartnell for Schneider + Bernier + 3rd/4th

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05-30-2010, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Terrible.

How about:

Parent + Hartnell for Schneider + Bernier + 3rd/4th
I would like that to be a 2nd.

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Old
05-31-2010, 12:42 AM
  #8
Ched Brosky
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Terrible.

How about:

Parent + Hartnell for Schneider + Bernier + 3rd/4th
Canucks cant take that much salary

how about Coburn + Hartnell for Schneider + Bieksa + Bernier?

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Old
05-31-2010, 12:47 AM
  #9
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Originally Posted by Silverback91 View Post
Canucks cant take that much salary

how about Coburn + Hartnell for Schneider + Bieksa + Bernier?
No. Coburn is not being moved. If there a significant piece involved, maybe. I wouldn't do it for Price. I certainly wouldn't do it for a lesser value goalie prospect, a salary dump, and a downgrade to the other piece I'm sending over.

All you changed from the first terrible proposal was you changed Hordichuk to Schneider. It's still terrible.

I strongly suggest giving up any thoughts about Coburn in Vancouver.

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Old
05-31-2010, 01:04 AM
  #10
Andrew Knoll
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other than straightening our paper that deals has no value. asham can throw em but he can also give some offensive spark, hordichuk is a pure slugger. why wouldn't we just re-sign asham? what, is he asking for a long deal at big money now? doubtful.

coburn is also not in a great negotiating position, worst case scenario sign him to a one year deal and revisit things in a year. no one is going to sign him to a huge offer sheet and inflate his value when he could be a UFA next year very easily so flyers have upper hand negotiating short term and fair leverage long term. i would rather have him than bieksa. edler, OK, let's talk.

i dont know what bernier makes but it's over $1.5M then even a hartnell/bernier swap seems dumb. better to do a straight cap dump moving hartnell for a pick to a team he'll waive his NTC for.

edler, schneider, these canucks have value to philly IMO. i doubt they part with edler. schneider for a pretty high pick or hartnell makes some sense but i think people here are a little too in love with schneider. he is discussed as being a blue chip on a level with say los angeles's bernier and i don't believe he is.

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Old
05-31-2010, 02:34 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No. Coburn is not being moved. If there a significant piece involved, maybe. I wouldn't do it for Price. I certainly wouldn't do it for a lesser value goalie prospect, a salary dump, and a downgrade to the other piece I'm sending over.

All you changed from the first terrible proposal was you changed Hordichuk to Schneider. It's still terrible.

I strongly suggest giving up any thoughts about Coburn in Vancouver.
You wouldn't trade Coburn for Price? You wouldn't trade a D with marginal offensive skills, terrible one-on-one defensive skills, questionable hockey IQ, etc. for a young goalie that has played well at the NHL level, and has a very high potential ceiling?

I understand having angst about the concept of Giroux or JVR, but balking at Coburn for Price is just ridiculous.

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05-31-2010, 02:37 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
other than straightening our paper that deals has no value. asham can throw em but he can also give some offensive spark, hordichuk is a pure slugger. why wouldn't we just re-sign asham? what, is he asking for a long deal at big money now? doubtful.

coburn is also not in a great negotiating position, worst case scenario sign him to a one year deal and revisit things in a year. no one is going to sign him to a huge offer sheet and inflate his value when he could be a UFA next year very easily so flyers have upper hand negotiating short term and fair leverage long term. i would rather have him than bieksa. edler, OK, let's talk.

i dont know what bernier makes but it's over $1.5M then even a hartnell/bernier swap seems dumb. better to do a straight cap dump moving hartnell for a pick to a team he'll waive his NTC for.

edler, schneider, these canucks have value to philly IMO. i doubt they part with edler. schneider for a pretty high pick or hartnell makes some sense but i think people here are a little too in love with schneider. he is discussed as being a blue chip on a level with say los angeles's bernier and i don't believe he is.
Coburn has arbitration written all over him, and as we learned with Randy Jones Holmgren can get effing stupid when arbitration is in play. Given the minutes he's played the last couple of years, I could see an arbitrator giving him a decent award if they ignore some of his other statistics... Guy has averaged over 20 minutes a night for a team that has made the playoffs three years in a row, including ECF and SCF appearances. That has to be worth something at the arbitration hearing.

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Old
05-31-2010, 02:56 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You wouldn't trade Coburn for Price? You wouldn't trade a D with marginal offensive skills, terrible one-on-one defensive skills, questionable hockey IQ, etc. for a young goalie that has played well at the NHL level, and has a very high potential ceiling?

I understand having angst about the concept of Giroux or JVR, but balking at Coburn for Price is just ridiculous.
I see you have not yet participated in a thread showcasing Shafer's raging hard on for Braydon Coburn. It's pretty comical.

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Old
05-31-2010, 02:57 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I see you have not yet participated in a thread showcasing Shafer's raging hard on for Braydon Coburn. It's pretty comical.
Shafer has a raging hard on for everyone affiliated with the Flyers organization, so this isn't shocking. But not trading Coburn for Price is fracking absurd... that's an absolute STEAL for us if we were to pull off a straight up swap.

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05-31-2010, 03:22 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You wouldn't trade Coburn for Price?
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You wouldn't trade a D with marginal offensive skills,
Correct, but you don't need to put up a lot of points to move the puck effectively. His skating, some experience, more powerplay opportunity will bring the points.

His "marginal" offensive skills are just more stat junkie BS. He's not great offensively, but he's not bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
terrible one-on-one defensive skills,
He was terrible one-on-one for the long stretch in which he was pretty bad. He was chasing the puck and second-guessing himself. His confidence was shot. He isn't showing any bad one-on-one tendencies anymore. In fact, he's been using his size and speed a lot more effectively once again to body up his opponents instead of puck-chasing like he did in 07-08.

So, once again, you couldn't be more wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
questionable hockey IQ, etc.
Coburn is a very smart player. Your use of "questionable hockey IQ" is borderline hilarious. I'd love to hear how you define hockey IQ. The person that takes the least amount of penalties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
for a young goalie that has played well at the NHL level, and has a very high potential ceiling?
Skaters effect the game more than goalies. A smooth-skating, 6'5 number two-way defense who will be a future top pairing player (perhaps a number 1) is far more appealing than some goalie with unlimited potential, who has performed well at every level, but has not been able to win back the job he apparently earned outright during his first season.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I understand having angst about the concept of Giroux or JVR, but balking at Coburn for Price is just ridiculous.
The fact that you're completely wrong but believe your own nonsense is what is pretty ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amateur Hour View Post
I see you have not yet participated in a thread showcasing Shafer's raging hard on for Braydon Coburn. It's pretty comical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Shafer has a raging hard on for everyone affiliated with the Flyers organization, so this isn't shocking. But not trading Coburn for Price is fracking absurd... that's an absolute STEAL for us if we were to pull off a straight up swap.
Clever. I haven't heard the old "homer" nonsense before. Why don't you guys think about what you're saying before calling people names?

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05-31-2010, 07:39 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
You wouldn't trade Coburn for Price?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nope.
I mean, seriously?

Also, I think that's the first and possibly last time that anyone will refer to Coburn as a "very smart player."

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Old
05-31-2010, 08:55 AM
  #17
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does anyone else see the coincidence between coburns turnaround in play and the fact that his contract negotiations hit the paper? awfully coincidental timing huh. ive said all year he was struggling because of the contract year and i think getting him back in the fold at a low number will be key to his development. he needs to be cheap enough that we can afford to have some patience with him.

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Old
05-31-2010, 09:29 AM
  #18
dbr2
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I for one is not sold on Coburn. The guy still makes mistakes he shouldn't be making i.e. not receiving passes at the point. We all saw this in game 1 of the Finals, which lead to a break away goal. It's pretty hard to have that be your selling factor for a player, especally because I'm sure he was nervous from the get-go.

But if we can have him here next year, I'd take him for cheap. Parent has struggled and Laviolette knows that. I'd somehow can see Parent being dealt at the draft.

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Old
05-31-2010, 09:30 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post

Skaters effect the game more than goalies. A smooth-skating, 6'5 number two-way defense who will be a future top pairing player (perhaps a number 1) is far more appealing than some goalie with unlimited potential, who has performed well at every level, but has not been able to win back the job he apparently earned outright during his first season.
Why do you insist that he is a future top pairing dman? Perhaps a #1? What has he shown that he can anchor a defensisve pairing let alone the top pairing? He may never be nothing more than a #4 dman and a secondary dman on the second pair. Not a bad thing. Could he be what you desribe at some point , possibly but doubtful imo. You just refuse to think that he may never turn into this guy that you desribe. You just insist that he will be top pairing guy.

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Old
05-31-2010, 09:33 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
I for one is not sold on Coburn. The guy still makes mistakes he shouldn't be making i.e. not receiving passes at the point. We all saw this in game 1 of the Finals, which lead to a break away goal. It's pretty hard to have that be your selling factor for a player, especally because I'm sure he was nervous from the get-go.

But if we can have him here next year, I'd take him for cheap. Parent has struggled and Laviolette knows that. I'd somehow can see Parent being dealt at the draft.
Come on, it was the same type of bouncer that I've seen go past Pronger at the point many times.

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05-31-2010, 09:39 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVR21 View Post
Come on, it was the same type of bouncer that I've seen go past Pronger at the point many times.
Perhaps.

But like I said, this isn't the main reasoning I would not be resigning him. He's made mistakes all year. He's made mistakes all last year. I'm pretty much on the fence with this guy. If he's let go I'm okay with it. But then again there goes some of our defensive depth, so that hurts us. If we sign him cheap I'm okay with that.

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Old
05-31-2010, 09:45 AM
  #22
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I wouldn't trade Coburn in this deal, but I would definitely trade him for Price/Halak. I proposed Coburn for Halak way back before Halak ran away the starting job

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Old
05-31-2010, 11:40 AM
  #23
Jester
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nope.
Just avoid trade threads. While you think the trade that began this thread is ridiculous, your expectations are silly as well.

Quote:
Correct, but you don't need to put up a lot of points to move the puck effectively. His skating, some experience, more powerplay opportunity will bring the points.
Or not, as he's never put up points of much merit at any level... expecting him to suddenly begin to do so at this level is a bit silly.

Quote:
His "marginal" offensive skills are just more stat junkie BS. He's not great offensively, but he's not bad.
Stat junkie BS? How about observed reality, man. Coburn is not a good passer as far as creating offense, not particularly good at handling the puck (but passable), he has a hard shot but isn't particularly good at placing it... he's a "marginal" offensive player, ya know, not great but not bag... "marginal."

Quote:
He was terrible one-on-one for the long stretch in which he was pretty bad. He was chasing the puck and second-guessing himself. His confidence was shot. He isn't showing any bad one-on-one tendencies anymore. In fact, he's been using his size and speed a lot more effectively once again to body up his opponents instead of puck-chasing like he did in 07-08.

So, once again, you couldn't be more wrong.
WTF are you talking about? '07-'08? Some of his worst undressings have come in the past two seasons. He's still friggin terrible at it. Back in '07-'08 Coburn hadn't been exposed the way he has the last couple of years.

Quote:
Coburn is a very smart player. Your use of "questionable hockey IQ" is borderline hilarious. I'd love to hear how you define hockey IQ. The person that takes the least amount of penalties?
No, the person that makes smart decisions positionally and with the puck. Coburn gets lost in coverage with some frequency, and makes lots of terrible passing decisions. In fact, the only reason I dislike Coburn is because he has TERRIBLE hockey IQ. If Coburn was a "very smart player" (btw, if you think that you should probably stop offering analysis of player), we wouldn't be talking about locking him up to a cheapish short contract right now... We'd be talking about trying to lock him up long-term to a rich deal, because he has the physical tools to be one of the best defenseman in the league and is nowhere close to that.

**** Dude, your fearless leader Holmgren even said Coburn had a very disappointing season in the spring when his next contract was brought up for discussion. Of course, he's really had back-to-back disappointing seasons.

Quote:
Skaters effect the game more than goalies. A smooth-skating, 6'5 number two-way defense who will be a future top pairing player (perhaps a number 1) is far more appealing than some goalie with unlimited potential, who has performed well at every level, but has not been able to win back the job he apparently earned outright during his first season.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
1) How many times does it need to be shown to you how stupid this "Skaters effect the game more than goalies" argument is? Goalies play a vastly larger number of minutes, and literally have no one standing behind 'em to help them play defense. If your goalie fails, the puck is in the net... they're the last line of defense.

2) As to your veiled criticism of Price... name me the goalies that could have won back the job from Halak this year. It's a short ****ing list with some really good goalies on it.

Quote:
The fact that you're completely wrong but believe your own nonsense is what is pretty ridiculous.
Your mom!

Cem on Chris, you're a "professional writer" you can back it up better than that.

Quote:
Clever. I haven't heard the old "homer" nonsense before. Why don't you guys think about what you're saying before calling people names?
I do, you're a completely unobjective homer and it makes for absolutely terrible trade analysis. However, as you are well aware, the belief that you're a terrible homer extends well beyond this thread, and this board. I have yet to see you in any trade discussion where it isn't ****ing obvious that you have an objectivity problem to everyone involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hovercraft View Post
I wouldn't trade Coburn in this deal, but I would definitely trade him for Price/Halak. I proposed Coburn for Halak way back before Halak ran away the starting job
It would be highway robbery at this point for either Price or Halak. Particularly if they are traded without contracts, and could lock one of 'em up for a few years.

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Old
05-31-2010, 11:45 AM
  #24
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Why do you insist that he is a future top pairing dman? Perhaps a #1? What has he shown that he can anchor a defensisve pairing let alone the top pairing? He may never be nothing more than a #4 dman and a secondary dman on the second pair. Not a bad thing. Could he be what you desribe at some point , possibly but doubtful imo. You just refuse to think that he may never turn into this guy that you desribe. You just insist that he will be top pairing guy.
He has the physical tools to be an absolute stud in the NHL, but thus far it just hasn't clicked between his ears. In many ways, he and Carle are very similar players with slightly different skills. Each has the physical ability to do a ton in this league, but just have to think the game much better to realize that potential.

Very frustrating to watch... I was thrilled watching Coburn when he first got here, but unfortunately his only really good season was his first full season for us. Was absolutely brutal at the beginning of last season, but got better in the 2nd half. This year he's been rough to watch pretty much from beginning until recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Perhaps.

But like I said, this isn't the main reasoning I would not be resigning him. He's made mistakes all year. He's made mistakes all last year. I'm pretty much on the fence with this guy. If he's let go I'm okay with it. But then again there goes some of our defensive depth, so that hurts us. If we sign him cheap I'm okay with that.
That goal was less on Coburn than the combination of bad ice and (Gagne?) passing him the puck in a tight spot.

I think he'll be back at a reasonably cheap rate, but I have zero interest in locking into him at this point. He's shown nowhere near the necessary development. While he sporadically shows off some high level of play (like he's been doing recently) it always goes away... he's been extremely hard to watch at times the past two years, and it's all between his ears.

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Old
05-31-2010, 11:58 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, the person that makes smart decisions positionally and with the puck. Coburn gets lost in coverage with some frequency, and makes lots of terrible passing decisions. In fact, the only reason I dislike Coburn is because he has TERRIBLE hockey IQ. If Coburn was a "very smart player" (btw, if you think that you should probably stop offering analysis of player), we wouldn't be talking about locking him up to a cheapish short contract right now... We'd be talking about trying to lock him up long-term to a rich deal, because he has the physical tools to be one of the best defenseman in the league and is nowhere close to that.
Sorry Chris, COMPLETELY agree with Jester here.

If I have one single knock on Mr. Coburn it's that he's dumb as rocks. He's got talent coming out of his ass but he's a bonehead. I mean, did you not see him literally pick up a puck and throw it out of the defensive zone not too long ago? He severely lacks hockey IQ. Coburn is at his best when he is NOT thinking and merely reacting. I think his instincts are fine and his skills are wonderful. It's only when he overthinks that he messes up.

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