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Old
05-31-2010, 12:14 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
Sorry Chris, COMPLETELY agree with Jester here.

If I have one single knock on Mr. Coburn it's that he's dumb as rocks. He's got talent coming out of his ass but he's a bonehead. I mean, did you not see him literally pick up a puck and throw it out of the defensive zone not too long ago? He severely lacks hockey IQ. Coburn is at his best when he is NOT thinking and merely reacting. I think his instincts are fine and his skills are wonderful. It's only when he overthinks that he messes up.
Meh that throw was when we were already down like 4-1 with a couple of minutes left. I think he was just frustrated.

But I agree Coburn is very dumb, but he has played well for most of this playoffs.

The problem that I had with the puck in his feet SHG was:
He should have interfered with Bolland at the line when he realized the puck was rolling. Penalty is better than a goal against

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05-31-2010, 12:37 PM
  #27
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No on all accounts, because we have no need for any of them. Coburn is better than Bieksa, Hartnell is better, even though dumber, than Bernier and Asham has done a lot for us, but we aren't keeping him, so I say just test your luck on July 1st.

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05-31-2010, 01:20 PM
  #28
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depends what asham wants, if he wants a considerable raise then he is gone, if not why not keep him at about the same money?

this thread turned into a messy diaper kind of quickly, yes, you take the coburn for price deal and run lol.

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05-31-2010, 01:29 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Danny Duberstein View Post
depends what asham wants, if he wants a considerable raise then he is gone, if not why not keep him at about the same money?

this thread turned into a messy diaper kind of quickly, yes, you take the coburn for price deal and run lol.
I think Asham's fate rests entirely in how they feel about some of these young guys with the Phantoms. If they want to open up the roster a bit and create some flexibility at camp, then that's going to likely mean that Asham is not re-signed. There was a lot of noise during the spring that Homer was going to let some people walk this summer... and I figure Asham was one of 'em. Who knows how this playoff run will have changed their planning (if at all), but I'd say Asham is at best 50/50 for a contract offer.

Frankly, as was the discussion at the beginning of the year, you really don't need three guys like Carcillo, Asham, and Lappy... which isn't a knock on any of 'em. Obviously Lappy brings a lot more to the table than the others as far as situational play, but given that none of 'em are heavies... you can live without Asham, and replace him with maybe someone that's a bit more of a skater/skill guy. If they continue with three scoring lines philosophy, maybe you see Maroon or Legein there next year.

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05-31-2010, 04:15 PM
  #30
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I don't agree with Chris's thoughts on the value of goal tending, but I can see some merit in his points on the topic. I am also a lot higher on Coburn than pretty much everyone else here. And even I think that's a little crazy Chris. Coburn would be in his gear, on the ice in Montreal before the Habs could hang up the phone if I was Holmgren.

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05-31-2010, 04:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I don't agree with Chris's thoughts on the value of goal tending, but I can see some merit in his points on the topic. I am also a lot higher on Coburn than pretty much everyone else here. And even I think that's a little crazy Chris. Coburn would be in his gear, on the ice in Montreal before the Habs could hang up the phone if I was Holmgren.
Coburn love/dislike stems entirely from whether you really think he's ever going to "get it" mentally. God knows he has the physical tools to play 25 minutes a night and dominate the opposition's offensive forwards. He's big enough to play big forwards physically, and such a phenomenal skater that he can keep up with the small and fast guys. Just doesn't do either well consistently.

2 years ago I was a huge fan, but after his struggles (yet again) this year, I've cooled on him considerably. He's fine for your 2nd pairing, but as of now he's incapable of carrying a 20 minute pairing without their being problems. The Coburn-Carle pairing last year was a cluster**** of terrible decisions leading to problems.

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05-31-2010, 04:51 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Coburn love/dislike stems entirely from whether you really think he's ever going to "get it" mentally. God knows he has the physical tools to play 25 minutes a night and dominate the opposition's offensive forwards. He's big enough to play big forwards physically, and such a phenomenal skater that he can keep up with the small and fast guys. Just doesn't do either well consistently.

2 years ago I was a huge fan, but after his struggles (yet again) this year, I've cooled on him considerably. He's fine for your 2nd pairing, but as of now he's incapable of carrying a 20 minute pairing without their being problems. The Coburn-Carle pairing last year was a cluster**** of terrible decisions leading to problems.
I don't think he is going to be a Timonen or a Pronger any time soon (most guys aren't, obviously). People get frustrated with that because he has the physical tools to be on that level (as you mentioned). But if you can evaluate him outside of the context of his talent, or our expectations of him, he is actually a pretty good d-man. He gets himself in trouble sometimes trying to to do too much (i.e. what his talent should probably grant him the ability to do, but doesn't), but most of the time when he keeps it simple he is a damn solid player.

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05-31-2010, 09:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
I don't think he is going to be a Timonen or a Pronger any time soon (most guys aren't, obviously). People get frustrated with that because he has the physical tools to be on that level (as you mentioned). But if you can evaluate him outside of the context of his talent, or our expectations of him, he is actually a pretty good d-man. He gets himself in trouble sometimes trying to to do too much (i.e. what his talent should probably grant him the ability to do, but doesn't), but most of the time when he keeps it simple he is a damn solid player.
Unfortunately, I don't think it's "most of the time." I agree completely that when he keeps it simple he's very effective, but he gets caught trying to do too much far too often. Through 50% of last year he was terrible... and he was sporadic pretty much all of this season. Has turned it on the playoffs of late, but if I'm planning for a 100 game schedule, that's not enough to bank on.

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06-01-2010, 07:51 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nope.


You are one of the main reasons why people think our posters are all homers in trade threads.

You wouldn't trade COBURN for PRICE? Wow, just wow.

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06-01-2010, 08:48 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
You are one of the main reasons why people think our posters are all homers in trade threads.

You wouldn't trade COBURN for PRICE? Wow, just wow.
Most of those people aren't all that brilliant to begin with.

Tell me why you think Price is so valuable anyway because I'd love to hear this...

EDIT: P.S. It's kinda like the people who called me a homer for thinking Giroux and JVR were more valuable than Price? Or maybe the people that swore to me that goaltending was by far the most important position to be elite at? Or maybe it was the people here who told me that Coburn would probably never come out of the other end of his slump? Anymore? I'm sure there's a couple more in there that brought people around with the pitchforks.


Last edited by CS: 06-01-2010 at 08:54 AM.
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Old
06-01-2010, 09:00 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Most of those people aren't all that brilliant to begin with.

Tell me why you think Price is so valuable anyway because I'd love to hear this...
Lets see:

Braydon Coburn

-A defenseman whos play has regressed dramatically over the past 2 seasons
-Playing with Timonen he still can't seem to step up to that next level
-A guy who is 6'5" (+/-) who still gets tossed around like a whipping boy
-Has all of the "hockey skills and physical attributes" in the world yet has the hockey IQ of a chimpanzee.
-Makes the worst decisions with the puck i've seen out of a guy who's supposed to have #2 defensemen potential.
-There is a reason he was traded from Atlanta for ****ing Zhitnik. The guy has no brain. One game he is an absolute beast, the next he is an absolute moron.
-He is young and teams still see him to have potential so he is pefect for trade bait.

Carey Price

-Franchise net-minder potential. (I feel I don't have to go on after this)
-All of the skills in the world yet is getting eaten up in the MTL media
-With the emergence of Halak, Price seems expendable for the time being.
-The next Patrick Roy MTL loses?

I think we can all agree that a tandem of:

Price/Leighton with Bobrovsky and Ericsson in the wings is alot better than Leighton/Boucher.

Pronger/Carle
Timonen/Parent
Bartulis/Veteran UFA

Price
Leighton

I'll take it.

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06-01-2010, 09:05 AM
  #37
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I mean, does Shafer realize that goaltending just cost us 2 games in the Stanley Cup Finals?

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06-01-2010, 09:11 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I mean, does Shafer realize that goaltending just cost us 2 games in the Stanley Cup Finals?
Thank you Mr. FlyHigh!

I was just about to post this. Goaltenders are the players who keep you in these type of games. Leighton was pretty sharp early on, but as soon as that 1st goal went in, I think his confidence was shifted.

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06-01-2010, 09:24 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
Thank you Mr. FlyHigh!

I was just about to post this. Goaltenders are the players who keep you in these type of games. Leighton was pretty sharp early on, but as soon as that 1st goal went in, I think his confidence was shifted.
Something getting swept under the rug (surprise!) is that the Flyers played a ridiculously good defensive game last night. Outside of the Krajicek ****-up (nice job Homer!), I'm not sure if we allowed a legitimate chance? How many real ones did the Hawks have? There was the Toews chance in the slot (horrible rebound by Leighton), maybe a couple screened slappers that went wide, but other than that, basically nothing.

Now I understand the "we need to score more than 1 goal" philosophy and ultimately, we do. But people have to realize that the Hawks have allowed 2 goals or fewer in 6 of their last 7 games and that Niemi had 2 ridiculously good performances in the Sharks series.

The Hawks do not allow many goals. So you can say we need to score more than 1, but we scored ****ing FIVE in Game 1 and Leighton/Boucher **** the bed. Then last night that Eager goal just slayed us. Without that goal, we go on, tie it up, and are in a very advantageous position headed into OT, we thoroughly outplayed the Hawks in the 2nd and 3rd periods last night.

There's always more than 1 reason for any loss, but the primary reason we are down 2-0 in this series is Michael Leighton. We're finally playing a good offense and guess what, he's getting exposed.

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06-01-2010, 09:33 AM
  #40
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100% agreed.

I've been saying to many people since Leighton returned those nasty rebounds may and will coasts us. Look at the Hossa goal. This is why you can't cough pucks up, esp. in the crease. Not to mention his glove hand has been getting beat a lot.

He is a back up. Not a number one guy.

Our goaltending situations for the past, what? 20 years has been an utter joke.

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06-01-2010, 09:53 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
Lets see:

Braydon Coburn

-A defenseman whos play has regressed dramatically over the past 2 seasons (has almost recovered fully from 2 seasons of suck in 5 months)
-Playing with Timonen he still can't seem to step up to that next level (he still can't? last I checked he was certainly a beast last night and has been since march)
-A guy who is 6'5" (+/-) who still gets tossed around like a whipping boy (he's playing more physical now than he's ever played)
-Has all of the "hockey skills and physical attributes" in the world yet has the hockey IQ of a chimpanzee. (again I think the issue with him wasn't his hockey IQ. he's made good decisions, particularly without the puck, since March-ish)[/B]
-Makes the worst decisions with the puck i've seen out of a guy who's supposed to have #2 defensemen potential. (his decisions with the puck definitely aren't as good as his decisions without the puck, but he's hardly Parent)
-There is a reason he was traded from Atlanta for ****ing Zhitnik. The guy has no brain. One game he is an absolute beast, the next he is an absolute moron. (the inconsistency reminds me much more of Matt Carle, but I wouldn't necessarily trust Atlanta's judgement in regards to anything)
-He is young and teams still see him to have potential so he is pefect for trade bait. [B](I'm sure there would be quite a few teams interested if we threw him on the market)

Carey Price

-Franchise net-minder potential. (I feel I don't have to go on after this) (certainly, and particularly on a good team that will take a lot of the pressure off him)
-All of the skills in the world yet is getting eaten up in the MTL media (never once bought Price's mental problems or that the media is getting to him. I don't think he's that emotionally attached. That of course, raises his value in my mind)
-With the emergence of Halak, Price seems expendable for the time being. (Definitely on the trade block, but the market shrinks his value considerably)
-The next Patrick Roy MTL loses? (The media will certainly call it that. Who knows, who cares? This point is moot and won't be known for years)

I think we can all agree that a tandem of:

Price/Leighton with Bobrovsky and Ericsson in the wings is alot better than Leighton/Boucher. (without question. That's an ideal situation)

Pronger/Carle
Timonen/Parent
Bartulis/Veteran UFA

Price
Leighton

I'll take it. (I won't. Look at that defense)
Now, I pretty much agreed with most of your points except I put added some comments on since you basically tried to tell half the truth of it at some parts to make Coburn look like a complete waste of a defenseman. I may remind you that it's not like I'm trying to say Krajicek is more valuable than Price. Coburn is inherently different, and it'd be nice if you explained what is so valuable about him and what Price's flaws are when making an argument. Basically don't just give one side.

Anyway, only part of my decision that we should not move Coburn for Price is based on my theory that skaters impact the game more than goaltenders. Since I understand that's still controversial, I won't use it.

There are other factors involved here though. Coburn brings a number of things to the table that we don't have left in the defensive prospect pool. Out of a group consisting of himself, Carle, Parent, Bartulis, Syvret, Lehtivuori, Bourdon, Marshall, Gustafsson, and Bertilsson, he is the only one with any kind of legitimate top-pairing potential. In fact, I don't think any one of those defensemen, Carle included, will ever come near as well as he is playing right now. Right now Coburn is our third best defenseman and is still growing. He has size, looks to be discovering his physical game, has great skating, is great playing the body, uses his stick well, and isn't terrible moving the puck. I don't care if he has 30-35 point potential and not 50-55 point potential. That really doesn't bother me all that much in a top pairing defenseman.

Now, all of this is important because we have to wait until 2012 before we select a first rounder again, we've lost Sbisa, and we're going to need to draft some wingers.

So what we have in Coburn is not on the way in the near future. We're not going to be able to replace him quickly if he is moved for Price.

So let's say we trade for Price, and we're left with this:

Pronger/Carle
Timonen/Parent
Bartulis/Veteran UFA

Now let's say either Pronger or Timonen begins to slow down next year. How terrible that does that defense look now? It already looked god awful before. Now you take Coburn out and you don't even have a legitimate top 4 unless Parent is suddenly back to form.

So why'd we kill the present and future of our defense?

Well, we did it to get a goalie with potential. Because great goalies have shown they can lead their teams to the Stanley Cup Finals year after year?

A strong defense is more important than a great goalie if you're going to win the Cup. Getting rid of Coburn is like cutting off one of our defense's legs. They won't only be crippled now, but it's not something that's particularly fixable.

Bad example I know, but it works.

Coburn is more important to this team than Price could possibly be.

Actually, scratch that. If you trade Coburn for Price, you make Price that much more important. He better be able to carry this team on his back. Otherwise you're screwed.

Or we could just keep Coburn, get the same results with Turco (who'd probably cost just as much as Price salary wise) for 1-2 years, and wait to see if Bobrovsky or Eriksson pan out.

It's smarter to not trade Coburn for Price, regardless of everyone's distinct vision of justice by getting a big-name goaltender in Philadelphia.



EDIT: P.S. I absolutely love how everyone is back off the Leighton train after two games. Suddenly goaltending is costing us in the playoffs when not a week ago, our defense was proving to be better than everyone else's goaltenders.

Some of you people are absolutely disgusting. Pick a side a stay there.

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Old
06-01-2010, 10:28 AM
  #42
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Goaltending cost us Game 1.

Our offense cost us Game 2. 1 goal? Who wins ANYTHING with 1 goal?

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06-01-2010, 10:29 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Goaltending cost us Game 1.

Our offense cost us Game 2. 1 goal? Who wins ANYTHING with 1 goal?
Again, the Hawks are an elite defensive team and when they get goaltending like that, they are extraordinarily hard to beat.

The point is that our goaltender didn't give us a chance to win it in OT. You CANNOT have mistakes like that in the Finals and expect to win, the Hawks are too good.

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06-01-2010, 10:34 AM
  #44
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for cap space would this make sense for us? im not familiar with canucks' contracts...

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06-01-2010, 10:40 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Goaltending cost us Game 1.

Our offense cost us Game 2. 1 goal? Who wins ANYTHING with 1 goal?
Goaltending didn't help us win Game 1 but the defense played as much of a factor in that loss as goaltending. Leighton was hung out to dry on a few of those goals. He let some easy ones in but the defense had to step up during Game 1. You can't blow 3 separate leads in the Finals.

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06-01-2010, 10:48 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sklodo View Post
Goaltending didn't help us win Game 1 but the defense played as much of a factor in that loss as goaltending. Leighton was hung out to dry on a few of those goals. He let some easy ones in but the defense had to step up during Game 1. You can't blow 3 separate leads in the Finals.
Agreed, our team lost 2 games that were easily winnable. It's on everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSTAFF View Post
You are one of the main reasons why people think our posters are all homers in trade threads.

You wouldn't trade COBURN for PRICE? Wow, just wow.
Coburn for Price?

I'd drive Coburn to the airport.

Price is like 23, and has huge upside. Give him some more time. At the very least, we still have Leighton.

Price will also have a small cap hit, meaning you can focus on bringing in a 4th d-man like Hamhuis.

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06-01-2010, 10:57 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Goaltending cost us Game 1.

Our offense cost us Game 2. 1 goal? Who wins ANYTHING with 1 goal?
Leighton was much better last night, but Niemi was even better... Niemi was better in both games, and we lost both games. It's really that simple.

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06-01-2010, 11:02 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Coburn is more important to this team than Price could possibly be.
False.

Quote:
Actually, scratch that. If you trade Coburn for Price, you make Price that much more important. He better be able to carry this team on his back. Otherwise you're screwed.
Cuz Coburn is carrying this team on his back?

Quote:
Or we could just keep Coburn, get the same results with Turco (who'd probably cost just as much as Price salary wise) for 1-2 years, and wait to see if Bobrovsky or Eriksson pan out.
Sure, we could, but that's independent of the fact that the larger point would be that I would be effing shocked if Montreal would actually trade Coburn for Price, so you'd be talking about some more going the other way.

Quote:
It's smarter to not trade Coburn for Price, regardless of everyone's distinct vision of justice by getting a big-name goaltender in Philadelphia.
Just because you believe that, don't make it a fact.

Quote:
EDIT: P.S. I absolutely love how everyone is back off the Leighton train after two games. Suddenly goaltending is costing us in the playoffs when not a week ago, our defense was proving to be better than everyone else's goaltenders.

Some of you people are absolutely disgusting. Pick a side a stay there.
Actually, a fair number of the people have been abso-****ing-lutely consistent on this issue for months. But I guess it looks better to pick a paper tiger to argue against.

I like the pejorative language, though. "Some of you people are absolutely disgusting." Ha, but Chris Shafer ain't... an angelic glow of hockey awesomeness surrounds him at all times and allows him to spread its wealth to the world through a hockey message board.

Awesome.

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06-01-2010, 11:08 AM
  #49
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I like the pejorative language, though. "Some of you people are absolutely disgusting." Ha, but Chris Shafer ain't... an angelic glow of hockey awesomeness surrounds him at all times and allows him to spread its wealth to the world through a hockey message board.

Awesome.
Quite possibly.

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Old
06-01-2010, 12:00 PM
  #50
JSTAFF
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post


EDIT: P.S. I absolutely love how everyone is back off the Leighton train after two games. Suddenly goaltending is costing us in the playoffs when not a week ago, our defense was proving to be better than everyone else's goaltenders.

Some of you people are absolutely disgusting. Pick a side a stay there.
I'd make a bet with you to try and find a post of mind where I have ever, ever wanted Leighton as our goalie now, let alone in the future. The guy is playing great for us, excellent. Do I want him next year? Hell no. But I do think he deserves a spot as a back-up for where he has brought us this year.

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