HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > International Tournaments
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

World Cup 2012

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-31-2010, 03:20 PM
  #26
CanadaRules*
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
So are they proposing that Finland Sweden will have the 2012 World's taken away from them? The one's which for example the city of Tampere are building a new arena for? Not to mention the 2014 Worlds in Belarus? Since there already binging agreements (and I'd imagine signed agreements), there would be a boat load crap hitting the fan, i.e. court cases.

Btw, I'm not seeing anything on that Nationalpost page. Do I need to turn off *******? 'Cause that's not happening.
No, the 2012 and 2014 wouldn't be cancelled but they're proposing NHL players not be allowed to attend.

Makes sense from a business standpoint....Players are going overseas and risking injury and not getting paid to do so. I don't think GM's and Owners like that very much.

CanadaRules* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 03:22 PM
  #27
CanadaRules*
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I can definitely see some players taking a pass on the World Cup. A lot players have off-season surgeries and would rather spend the time recovering than playing below 100% fitness. It was painful watching Selänne-Koivu-Lehtinen play in the 04 World Cup when all players were recovering from surgeries or in dire need of one. If a similar situation arises in 2012, I'd rather we take a pass on the whole tournament than the replace key players with European players. This year's World Championships were indicative of how poorly we'd fair.
There will be less players skipping the World Cup then the World Championships. That's for darn sure.

CanadaRules* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 03:48 PM
  #28
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaRules View Post
No, the 2012 and 2014 wouldn't be cancelled but they're proposing NHL players not be allowed to attend.

Makes sense from a business standpoint....Players are going overseas and risking injury and not getting paid to do so. I don't think GM's and Owners like that very much.
So basically, Belarus will get to host the 2014 WHC,their first ever which they are already preparing now, but the fans there will see 0 NHL players there. Not even Mikhail Grabovski or the Kostitsynīs will get the chance to play on home ice.

I can say only one thing about this whole: **** you NHL!

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 04:28 PM
  #29
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
So basically, Belarus will get to host the 2014 WHC,their first ever which they are already preparing now, but the fans there will see 0 NHL players there. Not even Mikhail Grabovski or the Kostitsynīs will get the chance to play on home ice.
I can say only one thing about this whole: **** you NHL!
The NHL Players Association will never agree to not be allowed to play at the world championships. That decision will always belong to the players and there will never be a rule that says they can't play.

However, in your example, what if the Kostitsyn's and Grabovski are both still playing in the NHL playoffs during the world champonships? Do you think they should leave their teams and betray their NHL teamates to go play for Belarus?

Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 04:32 PM
  #30
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
The NHL Players Association will never agree to not be allowed to play at the world championships. That decision will always belong to the players and there will never be a rule that says they can't play.

However, in your example, what if the Kostitsyn's and Grabovski are both still playing in the NHL playoffs during the world champonships? Do you think they should leave their teams and betray their NHL teamates to go play for Belarus?
Of course not, they should honour their contracts. I was actually talking about a situation when theyīre not in the play-offs anymore, I suppose I should have written it, but I thought everyone would understand that.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 04:36 PM
  #31
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Of course not, they should honour their contracts. I was actually talking about a situation when theyīre not in the play-offs anymore, I suppose I should have written it, but I thought everyone would understand that.
This is the main problem with the world championships, it's schedule. The World Cup at least offers what a true international championship should be, the best players from each country playing.

Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 04:40 PM
  #32
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
This is the main problem with the world championships, it's schedule. The World Cup at least offers what a true international championship should be, the best players from each country playing.
Blah, blah, blah.......The so called "World" Cup is an invitational tournament that also only includes 8 countries chosen by the NHL, so lots of countries donīt even get a chance to play there.

You might disagree with the World Championship as it is, but please donīt claim that the World Cup is what the WHC should be, because it isnīt.


Last edited by slovakiasnextone: 05-31-2010 at 04:54 PM.
slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 04:54 PM
  #33
usahockey22flyers
Classic Coburn...
 
usahockey22flyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New Jersey, USA
Country: United States
Posts: 2,329
vCash: 500
Has america ever gotten the IIHF Wcs

usahockey22flyers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 06:00 PM
  #34
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Blah, blah, blah.......The so called "World" Cup is an invitational tournament that also only includes 8 countries chosen by the NHL, so lots of countries donīt even get a chance to play there.

You might disagree with the World Championship as it is, but please donīt claim that the World Cup is what the WHC should be, because it isnīt.
We will probably never agree, but the World Cup is a much better tournament in my opinion, it involves the best players. We can have different opinions, that is OK. When Canada has won the World Championships there was no big celebration, no parades or people in the streets, nothing like the Olympics or to a lessor extent the World Cup.

There is nothing wrong with the world championships and I hope it remains the same as it is with players volunteering to go and having one each year as it is good for Europe, especially the lower ranked teams. If I was to compare the Hockey tournaments to soccer tournaments, I would say the hockey World Cup is more like the Soccer European Championships with the Olympics in Hockey more equivalent to the World Cup in soccer. The World championships as far as I am concerned is more like annual friendlies.

As for the format of the World Cup, you are right that there will likely be fewer countries in this tournament. i would like to see 8 with each team playing each other. It has been 8 years since Canada and Sweden have played a best on best game. If not an 8 team round robin then maybe 10 or even 12 teams with two groups of 5 or 6.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usahockey22flyers View Post
Has america ever gotten the IIHF Wcs
I think Colorado held it 50 years or so ago, Canada had it for the 1st time in 2008.


Last edited by Nakawick: 05-31-2010 at 06:07 PM.
Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 06:40 PM
  #35
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
 
RandV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,370
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
So are they proposing that Finland Sweden will have the 2012 World's taken away from them? The one's which for example the city of Tampere are building a new arena for? Not to mention the 2014 Worlds in Belarus? Since there already binging agreements (and I'd imagine signed agreements), there would be a boat load crap hitting the fan, i.e. court cases.

Btw, I'm not seeing anything on that Nationalpost page. Do I need to turn off *******? 'Cause that's not happening.
Before you think too badly of the big bad NHL, it's undetermined how much of this is real and how much of it is just posturing. The source came from the Satellite Hotsove, the 2nd intermission show on CBC's Hockey Night in Canada where a panel discusses various league rumours & changes. It was also very much in response to the now infamous blog article from the IIHF Comunications Director bashing NHL'ers for not playing, which the panel emphasized left a lot of people very unhappy over here. Remember that for the most part we've only seen the fans bickering about it, very little detail has come from the league on it.

In that regard, I got the impression that it was almost like they were saying if you are going to complain our NHL'ers attending your World Championships, why don't we do it like this? Now don't take this completely the wrong way, it's not like they were having a bash fest on the IIHF, I'm not sure if you can watch it outside of Canada but they stuck up for the IIHF as much as they criticized it.

RandV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-31-2010, 08:47 PM
  #36
Kamzik
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 1,487
vCash: 500
I think this is a positive development for Slovakia's 2011 World Championships, there is nothing else going on that year and the NHL participation should be pretty good.

With regards to long term, I think it would be ridiculous for Gary Bettman and the NHL to follow through on such threats. I don't think Canadians would have it. When young guns like Stamkos, Tavares, and Duchene don't make the playoffs, they don't want to just sit around for months. They want to represent their country.

Kamzik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 12:15 AM
  #37
RandV
It's a wolf v2.0
 
RandV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,370
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamzik View Post
I think this is a positive development for Slovakia's 2011 World Championships, there is nothing else going on that year and the NHL participation should be pretty good.

With regards to long term, I think it would be ridiculous for Gary Bettman and the NHL to follow through on such threats. I don't think Canadians would have it. When young guns like Stamkos, Tavares, and Duchene don't make the playoffs, they don't want to just sit around for months. They want to represent their country.
Well just remember that the NHL doesn't own and/or can't dictate exactly what the players can and can't do, rather they have to negotiate with and mutually agree to conditions with the NHLPA. Like you suggest I highly doubt most players want to be denied the choice to play in an international competition is over, and if the players push for it in the upcoming CBA it isn't an issue the league would risk a strike/lockout on especially as they'd have no support from the fans. Don't count out the power of the NHLPA when it comes to league matters.

RandV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 04:44 AM
  #38
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
We will probably never agree, but the World Cup is a much better tournament in my opinion, it involves the best players. We can have different opinions, that is OK. When Canada has won the World Championships there was no big celebration, no parades or people in the streets, nothing like the Olympics or to a lessor extent the World Cup.

There is nothing wrong with the world championships and I hope it remains the same as it is with players volunteering to go and having one each year as it is good for Europe, especially the lower ranked teams. If I was to compare the Hockey tournaments to soccer tournaments, I would say the hockey World Cup is more like the Soccer European Championships with the Olympics in Hockey more equivalent to the World Cup in soccer. The World championships as far as I am concerned is more like annual friendlies.

As for the format of the World Cup, you are right that there will likely be fewer countries in this tournament. i would like to see 8 with each team playing each other. It has been 8 years since Canada and Sweden have played a best on best game. If not an 8 team round robin then maybe 10 or even 12 teams with two groups of 5 or 6.



I think Colorado held it 50 years or so ago, Canada had it for the 1st time in 2008.
Maybe you donīt know much about the European soccer championship, but that is a very stupid comparison.

The soccer Euro is organized by an official governing body of the sport on one continent- UEFA, where every single nation from the continent, who wants to participate gets their chance in the qualifiers, even the amateurs from small San Marino, whose best players are from like Italian 3rd league and who constantly get blown out.

How exactly does that compare to a tournament, which is organized by a league, whose main intent is to promote itself (and therefore invites teams, who actually have NHL players) and where not only the teams like Hungary or Croatia, but also teams of the level of Germany, Belarus, Latvia, Denmark or Norway donīt get a chance to particpate. Please donīt tell me, it is cuz of bigger differences in the level of play, I can quite assure you that the drop off between Canada and Denmark is a zillion times smaller than the drop off between Spain and San Marino in soccer.

If Hockey Canada and Hockey USA organize a continental North American Hockey Cup, please, then you can compare it to the soccer Euro, but to compare the soccer Euro and Hockey "World" Cup is totally stupid.

Plus, compared to those "annual friendlies" as you call the WHC, this so called "World" Cup is not even annual.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 09:00 AM
  #39
2525
Sad Leafs fan
 
2525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,468
vCash: 1807
Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinD80 View Post
Hockey Canada has done a lot to sell the international brand. Losing much of that income would have a far bigger effect than not hosting an international tournament.

This is really a push by American voices (ie Bettman and Burke) to muscle their way into international hockey.
I think you hit the nail on the head.

2525 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 10:09 AM
  #40
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Maybe you donīt know much about the European soccer championship, but that is a very stupid comparison.
No it is not a stupid comparison, in the Euro championships not all of the world's teams compete, just like in the world cup of hockey.

Quote:
The soccer Euro is organized by an official governing body of the sport on one continent- UEFA, where every single nation from the continent, who wants to participate gets their chance in the qualifiers, even the amateurs from small San Marino, whose best players are from like Italian 3rd league and who constantly get blown out.

How exactly does that compare to a tournament, which is organized by a league, whose main intent is to promote itself (and therefore invites teams, who actually have NHL players) and where not only the teams like Hungary or Croatia, but also teams of the level of Germany, Belarus, Latvia, Denmark or Norway donīt get a chance to particpate. Please donīt tell me, it is cuz of bigger differences in the level of play, I can quite assure you that the drop off between Canada and Denmark is a zillion times smaller than the drop off between Spain and San Marino in soccer.
You already have the World Championships that involve "all teams". However, they are held when the best league in the world with many of the best players is STILL PLAYING! How are you supposed to have a legitimate WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP without the best players in the world?

Quote:
If Hockey Canada and Hockey USA organize a continental North American Hockey Cup, please, then you can compare it to the soccer Euro, but to compare the soccer Euro and Hockey "World" Cup is totally stupid. Plus, compared to those "annual friendlies" as you call the WHC, this so called "World" Cup is not even annual.
No it is not, neither is the soccer world cup, what is your point?

Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 10:38 AM
  #41
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
No it is not a stupid comparison, in the Euro championships not all of the world's teams compete, just like in the world cup of hockey.



You already have the World Championships that involve "all teams". However, they are held when the best league in the world with many of the best players is STILL PLAYING! How are you supposed to have a legitimate WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP without the best players in the world?



No it is not, neither is the soccer world cup, what is your point?
Have you missed that part about organized by an official governing body of the sport one one continent. Since when did the NHL become the UEFA of hockey? Itīs a continental championship (and all od the other continents have a championship of their own organized by their continental governing body) , so it is not the same as some tournament organized by a league. All countries from all around the world have a chance to compete in their own continental tournament.

The Football World Cup has been played regularly every four years since 1930, except for 1942 and 1946 because of WWII and is a tournament that is well respected all around the world by all federations and fans. The World Cup of Hockey was last played in 2004, which is 6 years ago and over here for example, people have only very vague memories about the tourney.

Iīm not sure why youīre dragging the IHWC into this when comparing World Cup of Hockey and the football Euro, but if you want. That "many of the best players in the world" argument is a legend made up by Canadians, because this year the tournament was played when for the most part only 4 teams were left in the competition in the SC play-offs and the number of the top world players in those teams is minimal compared to the 26 teams that were out of the competition by then. What makes the IHWC much less legitimate and the quality of the teams lower is IMO players from those 26 NHL teams already out of competition that declined to represent their country. Or are you going to claim that if the IHWC was played after the SC finals, these same players would not have declined? Plus, it would mean loads of players from KHL, SEL etc. not participating considering that their last leage games were in early April.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 01:49 PM
  #42
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Have you missed that part about organized by an official governing body of the sport one one continent. Since when did the NHL become the UEFA of hockey? Itīs a continental championship (and all od the other continents have a championship of their own organized by their continental governing body) , so it is not the same as some tournament organized by a league. All countries from all around the world have a chance to compete in their own continental tournament.
It seems you are missing the point of I do not care about the "official governing body". I care about quality of the games being played. That is the analogy I am refering too with respect to the Euro Championships and the World Cup. I don't care about the IIHF, Brussels, NATO, the UN or any other political entity, I care about the ****ing game.

Quote:
The Football World Cup has been played regularly every four years since 1930, except for 1942 and 1946 because of WWII and is a tournament that is well respected all around the world by all federations and fans. The World Cup of Hockey was last played in 2004, which is 6 years ago and over here for example, people have only very vague memories about the tourney.
Then it is time to make it every 4 years.

Quote:
Iīm not sure why youīre dragging the IHWC into this when comparing World Cup of Hockey and the football Euro, but if you want. That "many of the best players in the world" argument is a legend made up by Canadians, because this year the tournament was played when for the most part only 4 teams were left in the competition in the SC play-offs and the number of the top world players in those teams is minimal compared to the 26 teams that were out of the competition by then. What makes the IHWC much less legitimate and the quality of the teams lower is IMO players from those 26 NHL teams already out of competition that declined to represent their country. Or are you going to claim that if the IHWC was played after the SC finals, these same players would not have declined? Plus, it would mean loads of players from KHL, SEL etc. not participating considering that their last leage games were in early April.
My point has to do with seeing the best players play. None of the top countries in the world championships has had their best roster for decades. Teams B, C, D, etc is not my idea of a World's best competition. Don't give me the "made up by Canadians" crap either, none of the teams have their best roster at the World championships. I want to see the best teams from Slovakia, Finland, Canada, etc... play.

Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 02:13 PM
  #43
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
It seems you are missing the point of I do not care about the "official governing body". I care about quality of the games being played. That is the analogy I am refering too with respect to the Euro Championships and the World Cup. I don't care about the IIHF, Brussels, NATO, the UN or any other political entity, I care about the ****ing game.


Then it is time to make it every 4 years.



My point has to do with seeing the best players play. None of the top countries in the world championships has had their best roster for decades. Teams B, C, D, etc is not my idea of a World's best competition. Don't give me the "made up by Canadians" crap either, none of the teams have their best roster at the World championships. I want to see the best teams from Slovakia, Finland, Canada, etc... play.
Even if you donīt care, itīs still a wrong comparison. You claim to care for the quality- and therefore you want to see (and see) the teams with the best players on paper in the World Cup of Hockey, however the participants of the Football Euroe are not decided by someone base on quality on paper rather than real games on the pitch. Therefore upsets are bound to happen and usually you have a situation where at least one if not more top Euro national teams donīt play in the final tournament, while some weaker teams might. Example- England didnīt make it to Euro 2008, but was Poland who actually played there a better squad than England at that time? I seriosuly doubt it.

Made up by Canadian is the part when those players are missing only because of the SC play-offs. The fact is that the majority of the teams were missing most of their top players because those players had/or claimed to have different reasons for declining the invite to the national team: injury, family, tired etc. This is not only for the NHL team players out of play-offs already, but true also for many KHL, SEL etc. players who could have been available, but decided not to play or couldnīt play because of injuries. Therefore I cease to see how you can claim that many of the top players were missing , because of the SC play-offs only. The majority of them were not there because they declined to participate for different reasons.

I also care about the level of hockey I will see in the one or ther other tournament, but I care about more than just the quality of the players on paper. What does the playersī quality on paper give me when I have to watch them play in August when theyīre all out of form. I have seen most of our NHL players actually play a game last summer and while it was just an exhibition game against the Slovak league champion it was clear to me that at that time they were not capable of playing world class hockey at that time of the year. It didnīt look to me like they were capable of playing at the level that most of the top teams at the WHC in May usually do actually.


Last edited by slovakiasnextone: 06-01-2010 at 02:28 PM.
slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 03:05 PM
  #44
jakzed
Registered User
 
jakzed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: B.C., Canada
Country: Czech_ Republic
Posts: 88
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
It seems you are missing the point of I do not care about the "official governing body". I care about quality of the games being played. That is the analogy I am refering too with respect to the Euro Championships and the World Cup. I don't care about the IIHF, Brussels, NATO, the UN or any other political entity, I care about the ****ing game.



Then it is time to make it every 4 years.



My point has to do with seeing the best players play. None of the top countries in the world championships has had their best roster for decades. Teams B, C, D, etc is not my idea of a World's best competition. Don't give me the "made up by Canadians" crap either, none of the teams have their best roster at the World championships. I want to see the best teams from Slovakia, Finland, Canada, etc... play.

I think there's a big point to be made about the difference between an official international agency and a domestic league putting a tournament on. I love the World Cup but don't think it has the legitimacy that the World Championship does. I do appreciate that it often has greater quality in terms of players, but that isn't everything. What about national program depth or seeing guys that you normally wouldn't see for various reasons. I like the best on best scenario, however not every tournament has to be what we consider "best on best" to be.

I think that the pinnacle of international tournaments is very obviously the Olympic games with the World Cup coming third after the World Championships.

Winning the World Championship, as sweet as it is, doesn't erase the Czech Olympic performance, however it is really satisfying to see our B/C team taking on the cream of the Russian crop and winning in a way that seeing our "best" out there isn't.

I love the World Cup and it's great, but at the end of the day it's a North American hockey tournament that some others are invited to participate in that happens maybe once or twice in a decade. It's exciting and there are bragging rights to be sure, but I personally value the World Championship more.

Just my point of view.

jakzed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 03:16 PM
  #45
CanadaRules*
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 160
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Even if you donīt care, itīs still a wrong comparison. You claim to care for the quality- and therefore you want to see (and see) the teams with the best players on paper in the World Cup of Hockey, however the participants of the Football Euroe are not decided by someone base on quality on paper rather than real games on the pitch. Therefore upsets are bound to happen and usually you have a situation where at least one if not more top Euro national teams donīt play in the final tournament, while some weaker teams might. Example- England didnīt make it to Euro 2008, but was Poland who actually played there a better squad than England at that time? I seriosuly doubt it.

Made up by Canadian is the part when those players are missing only because of the SC play-offs. The fact is that the majority of the teams were missing most of their top players because those players had/or claimed to have different reasons for declining the invite to the national team: injury, family, tired etc. This is not only for the NHL team players out of play-offs already, but true also for many KHL, SEL etc. players who could have been available, but decided not to play or couldnīt play because of injuries. Therefore I cease to see how you can claim that many of the top players were missing , because of the SC play-offs only. The majority of them were not there because they declined to participate for different reasons.

I also care about the level of hockey I will see in the one or ther other tournament, but I care about more than just the quality of the players on paper. What does the playersī quality on paper give me when I have to watch them play in August when theyīre all out of form. I have seen most of our NHL players actually play a game last summer and while it was just an exhibition game against the Slovak league champion it was clear to me that at that time they were not capable of playing world class hockey at that time of the year. It didnīt look to me like they were capable of playing at the level that most of the top teams at the WHC in May usually do actually.
Players who aren't in the playoffs or were eliminated in the 1st/2nd round generally don't go to the WHC due to injuries, a long season, and because the Cup means alot more than a WHC gold around here to the players. Losing in the playoffs leaves players with a big hangover and most dont bother going to the WHC because of that hangover.

CanadaRules* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 03:35 PM
  #46
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaRules View Post
Players who aren't in the playoffs or were eliminated in the 1st/2nd round generally don't go to the WHC due to injuries, a long season, and because the Cup means alot more than a WHC gold around here to the players. Losing in the playoffs leaves players with a big hangover and most dont bother going to the WHC because of that hangover.
And who is to blame for that? Donīt tell me that the IIHF. Itīs the NHLīs long season and the players themselves.

What exactly should the IIHF do to make these players play at the WHC? Please propose something that would not also influence the position of teams with 50+% Euro league players in the tournament, which actually is around a half of the teams in a 16 team tournament. Eveyone is so smart when finding the IIHFīs and the IHWCīs faults, but noone has been able to give an alternative that wouldnīt influence the other teams without NHL players in any way or wouldnīt destroy the lower divisions of the WHC.

Plus, are those players who didnīt make the play-offs (and many of whom knew they wouldnīt make it for a long time) also hung over? Or are they any more tired than players from European leagues, who have sometimes played 10-15 exhibition games in the summer, played whole regular season in Europe and have made it all the way to their leagueīs finals, also have played numerous games in international friendly games/tournaments during the international breaks (November, December, February + exhibition games/tournaments rigth before the WHC), which often gives you mroe than those 82 games in the NHL? And you donīt see these players declining an IHWC invite very often even if they lose in their league final, which Iīm quite sure gives you a bigger hangover than not making the NHL play-offs does.

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 04:27 PM
  #47
Nakawick
Registered User
 
Nakawick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,161
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
My point has to do with seeing the best players play. None of the top countries in the world championships has had their best roster for decades. Teams B, C, D, etc is not my idea of a World's best competition. Don't give me the "made up by Canadians" crap either, none of the teams have their best roster at the World championships. I want to see the best teams from Slovakia, Finland, Canada, etc... play.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slovakiasnextone View Post
Made up by Canadian is the part when those players are missing only because of the SC play-offs. The fact is that the majority of the teams were missing most of their top players because those players had/or claimed to have different reasons for declining the invite to the national team: injury, family, tired etc. This is not only for the NHL team players out of play-offs already, but true also for many KHL, SEL etc. players who could have been available, but decided not to play or couldnīt play because of injuries. Therefore I cease to see how you can claim that many of the top players were missing , because of the SC play-offs only. The majority of them were not there because they declined to participate for different reasons.
You just agreed with me whether you realized it or not. The World Championships does not have the same players who decline to play for many reasons, the most important reason is that it is simply not as important to the players, so spare me with your "made up by Canadian".

Quote:
Even if you donīt care, itīs still a wrong comparison. You claim to care for the quality- and therefore you want to see (and see) the teams with the best players on paper in the World Cup of Hockey, however the participants of the Football Euroe are not decided by someone base on quality on paper rather than real games on the pitch. Therefore upsets are bound to happen and usually you have a situation where at least one if not more top Euro national teams donīt play in the final tournament, while some weaker teams might. Example- England didnīt make it to Euro 2008, but was Poland who actually played there a better squad than England at that time? I seriosuly doubt it.
The World Championship is held every year. The lower ranked teams play in that,,......EVERY YEAR!

Quote:
I also care about the level of hockey I will see in the one or ther other tournament, but I care about more than just the quality of the players on paper. What does the playersī quality on paper give me when I have to watch them play in August when theyīre all out of form. I have seen most of our NHL players actually play a game last summer and while it was just an exhibition game against the Slovak league champion it was clear to me that at that time they were not capable of playing world class hockey at that time of the year. It didnīt look to me like they were capable of playing at the level that most of the top teams at the WHC in May usually do actually.
One exhibition game for fun doesn't equal playing for your country. The World Cup would be held in September when players would normally be back into hockey. If players know ahead of time that there is a World Cup then they will plan to stay in better shape for the summer months. Also, September is when most players will be at their healtiest, not many injuries and not too tired to play like at the World Championships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jakzed View Post
I think there's a big point to be made about the difference between an official international agency and a domestic league putting a tournament on. I love the World Cup but don't think it has the legitimacy that the World Championship does. I do appreciate that it often has greater quality in terms of players, but that isn't everything. What about national program depth or seeing guys that you normally wouldn't see for various reasons. I like the best on best scenario, however not every tournament has to be what we consider "best on best" to be.
Not every tournament is a best on best, that is why I think the World Cup is better. Between the World Cup and Olympics, the best on best would happen every 2 years IF the World Cup is held every 4 years. The IIHF at one point wouldn't allow Canadian NHL players to even play, now they are openly criticisng them. I don't have the same level of support for the IIHF.

Quote:
I think that the pinnacle of international tournaments is very obviously the Olympic games with the World Cup coming third after the World Championships.
I simply don't have the same love for the World Championships as I do a best on best.

Quote:
I love the World Cup and it's great, but at the end of the day it's a North American hockey tournament that some others are invited to participate in that happens maybe once or twice in a decade. It's exciting and there are bragging rights to be sure, but I personally value the World Championship more.Just my point of view.
fair enough, but most North Americans view the World Championships as a European tournament. I would like the World Cup to happen every 4 years and rotate between Europe and NA. I have a feeling that Prague would be quite excited to see the Czech National Team play the best team from Sweden or Canada. Pretty sure that the building would be sold out


Last edited by Nakawick: 06-01-2010 at 04:46 PM.
Nakawick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 04:45 PM
  #48
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
You just agreed with me whether you realized it or not. The World Championships does not have the same players who decline to for many reasons, the most importnat reason is that it is simply not as important to the players, so spare me with your "made up by Canadian".



The World Championship is held every year. The lower ranked teams play in that,,......EVERY YEAR!




One exhibition game for fun doesn't equal playing for your country. The World Cup would be held in September when players would normally be back into hockey. If players know ahead of time that there is a World Cup then they will plan to stay in better shape for the summer months. Also, September is when most players will be at their healtiest, not many injuries and not too tired to play like at the World Championships.



Not every tournament is a best on best, that is why I think the World Cup is better. Between the World Cup and Olympics, the best on best would happen every 2 years IF the World Cup is held every 4 years. The IIHF at one point wouldn't allow Canadian NHL players to even play, now they are openly criticisng them. I don't have the same level of support for the IIHF.



I simply don't have the same love for the World Championships as I do a best on best.



fair enough, but most North Americans view the World Championships as a European tournament. I would like the World Cup to happen every 4 years and rotate between Europe and NA. I have a feeling that Prague would be quite excited to see the Czech National Team play the best team from Sweden or Canada. Pretty sure that the building would be sold out
The made up by Canadians part is abotu how it is because of the SC play-offs. because itīs not as Iīve clearly pointed out, how many times doI have to repeat myself??

The World Championship has nothing to do with comparing the World Cup of Hockey and football Euro

The World Cup of Hockey pretty much is just an exhibition tournament. And the hockey games Iīve seen in September were pretty low quality compared to games played in May by the same teams, while those teams were actually preparing for those games since July. Youīre not getting any world class hockey in September.

I believe you are totally off with those people in Prague. Why should they want to see those best players who didnīt show anything in the Olympics and tied Latvia in the pre-quarterfinal game and then almost all declined to come to what to those fans is the 2nd hockey highlight in an Olympic year (No. 1 in the non-Olympics year) and most probably the fans would have to give out unreasonably big money to see those games ? Many of the Czech fans actually currently call them "primadony"- divas right now. Check out the thread with Jágrīs quotes on here to see some of the Czech fans reactions on here.

The Czech fans would currently much rather see their WHC gold winning crew around Jágr play. Because those guys actually got a heart
that beats for their country.

jakzed has already pointed out that the WHC gold means more than the World Cup to him. IMO the general public in CZE doesnīt know that much anything about the World Cup of Hockey, but everyone there knows that they won the WHC.

Cheering on this Czech team to win the tournament, I would give anything to see the faces of the Czech players who declined because they were "tired" when the team was getting the gold medals or celebrating in the locker room. No Czech player would rather sit at home on the coach than have a gold medal from the WHC around their necks. They just thought they wouldnīt get any, so tehy decided not to come.


Last edited by slovakiasnextone: 06-01-2010 at 05:24 PM.
slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 05:00 PM
  #49
Theokritos
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,906
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
fair enough, but most North Americans view the World Championships as a European tournament
Alright, but just for the record: The comparison with the European Championship in Football/Soccer is misleading because said tournament in fact is a best on best tournament. Every country that takes part can use all of its best players, just like in the World Cup of Hockey, but other than in the Ice Hockey World Championship.

Theokritos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-01-2010, 05:15 PM
  #50
slovakiasnextone
Registered User
 
slovakiasnextone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,726
vCash: 500
And at least 27 519 Czechs really think what I said in my previous post:
"Swear word, these are some warriors, not like the divas from the NHL"

slovakiasnextone is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. Đ2014 All Rights Reserved.