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Who Stays-Marleau or Nabokov?

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Old
06-02-2010, 09:42 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
It hurts me to have to say that, but I mean what I say. I've had enough of Nabby. I would take a consistently mediocre (Turco) goalie over him any day of the week. The way Nabby is so great/bad from game to game is a sore spot in out beloved hockey club, and it is obvious. I'd downgrade to Turco + a Physical Defender for sure. Marleau on the other hand... I don't want to see him go, but still... change is needed. The Sharks need to get tougher.
If you think Nabokov is inconsistent, you'll be in for a surprise with Turco's inconsistency. As for the physical defender, we had Douglas Murray and where did that get us? It got us beat by a quicker team.

I don't understand why you feel that a change of that magnitude is needed when the team got to the final four. It's about time people critically analyzed why we lost instead of simply believing the thought that if we lose, it's because they don't care or aren't tough enough.

They lost because their quickness up and down their roster was no match for Chicago's quickness up and down their lineup. If you think moving Marleau is going to address that, you're sorely mistaken.

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06-02-2010, 09:44 PM
  #77
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So you would have the Sharks compound what is probably a bad decision by making a confirmed worse decision for the sake of change? I do not think that line of thinking is going to keep you hired as GM.
The OP question was Nabby or Marleau, I chose Nabby to go and threw in the possible idea of replacing him with Turco. That would be acceptable to me, but not ideal. I watch every single pass of the puck when it comes to Shark games, so this is an educated opinion. Don't look at me like I am crazy. This isnt a terrible idea like you make it out to be.

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06-02-2010, 09:47 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
The OP question was Nabby or Marleau, I chose Nabby to go and threw in the possible idea of replacing him with Turco. That would be acceptable to me, but not ideal. I watch every single pass of the puck when it comes to Shark games, so this is an educated opinion. Don't look at me like I am crazy. This isnt a terrible idea like you make it out to be.
I'd rather get someone like Ellis. Turco is gonna want at least $3.5-4

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06-02-2010, 09:57 PM
  #79
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If you think Nabokov is inconsistent, you'll be in for a surprise with Turco's inconsistency. As for the physical defender, we had Douglas Murray and where did that get us? It got us beat by a quicker team.

I don't understand why you feel that a change of that magnitude is needed when the team got to the final four. It's about time people critically analyzed why we lost instead of simply believing the thought that if we lose, it's because they don't care or aren't tough enough.

They lost because their quickness up and down their roster was no match for Chicago's quickness up and down their lineup. If you think moving Marleau is going to address that, you're sorely mistaken.
The Sharks have decent speed. I guess I just saw things differently than you this postseason. The bigger problem to me was the fact that no one could, or was willing to clear the front of the net so Nabby could get solid looks on the puck and track them down for effective saves. Any decent goalie can stop pucks more often than not and earn wins if they get good looks at the puck. I stand by a lesser of a goalie, and more of a physical defense. Look at Philly and Chicago both, they are perfect examples of the defensive system I am talking about. Losing Nabby isnt a bad idea, it's just a real scary change cause it could backfire horribly. No risk, no reward.

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06-02-2010, 10:04 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
The Sharks have decent speed. I guess I just saw things differently than you this postseason. The bigger problem to me was the fact that no one could, or was willing to clear the front of the net so Nabby could get solid looks on the puck and track them down for effective saves. Any decent goalie can stop pucks more often than not and earn wins if they get good looks at the puck. I stand by a lesser of a goalie, and more of a physical defense. Look at Philly and Chicago both, they are perfect examples of the defensive system I am talking about. Losing Nabby isnt a bad idea, it's just a real scary change cause it could backfire horribly. No risk, no reward.
The Sharks had 2-3 players with any sort of speed on offense, the two teams in the finals have more than that.

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06-02-2010, 10:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
The Sharks have decent speed. I guess I just saw things differently than you this postseason. The bigger problem to me was the fact that no one could, or was willing to clear the front of the net so Nabby could get solid looks on the puck and track them down for effective saves. Any decent goalie can stop pucks more often than not and earn wins if they get good looks at the puck. I stand by a lesser of a goalie, and more of a physical defense. Look at Philly and Chicago both, they are perfect examples of the defensive system I am talking about. Losing Nabby isnt a bad idea, it's just a real scary change cause it could backfire horribly. No risk, no reward.
The answer to this is that there is simply nobody that can be acquired that will move Dustin Byfuglien from the front. Douglas Murray can't do it and there aren't many that are bigger than him. They had success in containing Tomas Holmstrom who has every bit of skill in front as anyone in the league. When a body like Byfuglien is in front, you have to cut the team off before they get set up to utilize the net presence.

There were plenty of problems with regards to the Sharks but most of it is due to the fact that Chicago was quicker to loose pucks. Quicker through the neutral zone and given time and space entering the zone. This defensive posture is due to an accepted disparity in team speed between the two teams.

The Sharks have decent speed. They don't have good enough speed to match up to this particular Hawks team who has quality speed all the way through their lineup.

I don't disagree with the thought of letting Nabby go for a worse goalie and improving the D in some capacity. I just don't think the team needs to get slower and losing Marleau will kill their team speed in pretty much every capacity and I don't think they can procure a suitable replacement for all the things Marleau brings with him.

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06-02-2010, 10:26 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
The Sharks have decent speed. I guess I just saw things differently than you this postseason. The bigger problem to me was the fact that no one could, or was willing to clear the front of the net so Nabby could get solid looks on the puck and track them down for effective saves. Any decent goalie can stop pucks more often than not and earn wins if they get good looks at the puck. I stand by a lesser of a goalie, and more of a physical defense. Look at Philly and Chicago both, they are perfect examples of the defensive system I am talking about. Losing Nabby isnt a bad idea, it's just a real scary change cause it could backfire horribly. No risk, no reward.
Decent speed? No. Outside of Marleau, McGinn, Seto, occasionally JT, Mitchell, and occasionally Nichol, the Sharks forwards are relatively slow. You are correct that no one could move Butt****er from the front of the net. Look at how Pronger is doing it: by playing with a toe over the line. No Shark wanted to do that. Douglas Murray has the size but not the agility. Nabokov did not assert himself much to find the puck either.

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Originally Posted by DROPxTHExGLOVES View Post
The OP question was Nabby or Marleau, I chose Nabby to go and threw in the possible idea of replacing him with Turco. That would be acceptable to me, but not ideal. I watch every single pass of the puck when it comes to Shark games, so this is an educated opinion. Don't look at me like I am crazy. This isnt a terrible idea like you make it out to be.
Before you cry out for a slice of Turco, go ask Stars fans what they think of him.

Just go do it.

Alex Auld was in net for them for 21 games. They traded for Kari Lehtonen.

Go ask.

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06-02-2010, 10:56 PM
  #83
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You are since you joined this month....oh, wait...me too.
I have been watching since jan.

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06-02-2010, 11:04 PM
  #84
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Do you want Marleau to end up in L.A.? If yes, then sign Nabokov. If no, sign Marleau.

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06-02-2010, 11:27 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Chaotic8 View Post
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Originally Posted by JPavs8Cluthcy View Post
*Braces self for some stupid insult about how I'm a bandwagon fan.*
You are since you joined this month....oh, wait...me too.
I have been watching since jan.
If you both didn't have Pavelski related usernames beginning in May... then I wouldn't believe that you hopped on his bandwagon as he was tearing it up for 8 games at the beginning of the POs.

And to the "I have been watching since jan.", I hope you mean HF and not hockey. Hell, okay if you want to join and learn, but asserting strong opinions without much prior knowledge is a no-no. Even I knew that, and I'm a bloody 17-year-old girl.

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Do you want Marleau to end up in L.A.? If yes, then sign Nabokov. If no, sign Marleau.
Not this simple. I don't think there is much of a question to if we want Marleau. Long-time fans can see what he brings to the organization. It's a matter of money.

Nabby... he has been my favorite player for years, and I stood by him through all of the PO criticism he's been through. But I truly believe the organization is ready for an injection of youth. And D. Yes, D too.

But if Patty had to go somewhere, I'd be okay with the Kings even though they're in our division. For some reason I've always liked them.

Bottom line, I think we keep Patty at pretty much any cost, and let Nabby walk, signing Ellis and letting him split time with Greiss or a prospect.

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06-03-2010, 12:56 AM
  #86
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With regards to the Chicago series, I honestly don't think speed and quickness was that much of an issue. The biggest problem is that I just didn't see fire or passion. Watching these finals, Philly and Chicago are absolutely flying. Their players are skating and handling the puck like madmen, going 1000 mph. I don't think I've ever seen that from this team

And that brings me to another point, we need to start drafting based on intangibles instead of skill or potential. Something to help us avoid the Michalek, Kaspar and Goc's of the world and maybe land a Mike Richards or two

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06-03-2010, 01:08 AM
  #87
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If you both didn't have Pavelski related usernames beginning in May... then I wouldn't believe that you hopped on his bandwagon as he was tearing it up for 8 games at the beginning of the POs.

Oh the coincidences pile up. "Chaotic8" has been my gamertag/email/internet identification since high school. (10yrs ago) Had I known of HF's existence prior to May I would have joined quite some time ago. My interests in HF were sparked due to a member post on a motorcycle forum.

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06-03-2010, 01:09 AM
  #88
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With regards to the Chicago series, I honestly don't think speed and quickness was that much of an issue. The biggest problem is that I just didn't see fire or passion. Watching these finals, Philly and Chicago are absolutely flying. Their players are skating and handling the puck like madmen, going 1000 mph. I don't think I've ever seen that from this team

And that brings me to another point, we need to start drafting based on intangibles instead of skill or potential. Something to help us avoid the Michalek, Kaspar and Goc's of the world and maybe land a Mike Richards or two
If you don't think speed wasn't a problem in the Chicago series, I don't know what to say. Did you see how far the dmen backed off? Do you know why? The reason is speed and consistency of backcheck. They were dramatically overmatched because the forwards couldn't get back fast enough. Passion tends to disappear and get replaced with desperation when players are faced with that. Passion is still performing in a near hopeless situation and look at which Sharks did exactly that. The only reason the Avs stayed with the Sharks was speed; it was no contest on talent. But the Avs had enough d zone speed and persistance to cut down on quality chances and make Anderson look like a God. The Sharks had an easier time with the Wings who do not have the same raw speed that the other two teams did.

Some of that intensity of which you speak is speed. They do draft on intangibles and have been burned. See the word "leadership" when used to describe players. Funny thing, Ottawa missed the playoffs, switched out Heatley for Michalek and made the playoffs. Hmmmm . . . .

I personally don't think they have a good definition of "leadership" nor a good definition of that for which they should look. They might want to start looking for guys who have Memorial Cups to their credit rather than guys who captained their team at some point. You probably want perseverance as a part of that leadership attribute and the proxy for that is the Memorial Cup.

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06-03-2010, 01:29 AM
  #89
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If you don't think speed wasn't a problem in the Chicago series, I don't know what to say. Did you see how far the dmen backed off? Do you know why? The reason is speed and consistency of backcheck. They were dramatically overmatched because the forwards couldn't get back fast enough. Passion tends to disappear and get replaced with desperation when players are faced with that. Passion is still performing in a near hopeless situation and look at which Sharks did exactly that. The only reason the Avs stayed with the Sharks was speed; it was no contest on talent. But the Avs had enough d zone speed and persistance to cut down on quality chances and make Anderson look like a God. The Sharks had an easier time with the Wings who do not have the same raw speed that the other two teams did.

Some of that intensity of which you speak is speed. They do draft on intangibles and have been burned. See the word "leadership" when used to describe players. Funny thing, Ottawa missed the playoffs, switched out Heatley for Michalek and made the playoffs. Hmmmm . . . .

I personally don't think they have a good definition of "leadership" nor a good definition of that for which they should look. They might want to start looking for guys who have Memorial Cups to their credit rather than guys who captained their team at some point. You probably want perseverance as a part of that leadership attribute and the proxy for that is the Memorial Cup.
Agree about the speed. Not sure I can take the Sens and pin Michalek and Cheechoo going to the Sens and Heatley leaving for their ascension back into the playoffs. But I do agree about the captain comment - absolutely. Captain isn't always the best leader in hockey. Many times, its the teams best player or one of the top players. Skill doesn't normally define a leader. Often, its exactly the opposite; players who had to work to stay in the league versus those blessed with God given talent and small effort. The hard workers are the ones able to explain sacrifice and model it for others. Many times, those gifted players can't relate to someone who can't 'just make it happen.' I think its part of the reason average players make the coaching ranks and the Gretzkys of the worlds struggle.

Measuring for leadership though takes more than Memorial Cup Champs or captains for that matter. Its an interesting comment, but that excludes players from other countries and those like Pavelski who came up through alternate paths and the college ranks. Combined with temperament testing, interviews, scouting, background checks, you should get closer.

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06-03-2010, 01:52 AM
  #90
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Agree about the speed. Not sure I can take the Sens and pin Michalek and Cheechoo going to the Sens and Heatley leaving for their ascension back into the playoffs. But I do agree about the captain comment - absolutely. Captain isn't always the best leader in hockey. Many times, its the teams best player or one of the top players. Skill doesn't normally define a leader. Often, its exactly the opposite; players who had to work to stay in the league versus those blessed with God given talent and small effort. The hard workers are the ones able to explain sacrifice and model it for others. Many times, those gifted players can't relate to someone who can't 'just make it happen.' I think its part of the reason average players make the coaching ranks and the Gretzkys of the worlds struggle.

Measuring for leadership though takes more than Memorial Cup Champs or captains for that matter. Its an interesting comment, but that excludes players from other countries and those like Pavelski who came up through alternate paths and the college ranks. Combined with temperament testing, interviews, scouting, background checks, you should get closer.
Agree about additional checks. You know me too well to think otherwise. The Memorial Cup is a perseverance test, one among many, that seems to be missing from the Sharks repertoire (exception Vlasic). You would be surprised at the number of SC winners that have that Mem. Cup in their repertoire. No I don't want to exclude outside of Canada, but if included, that is one factor that should be given weight. It is also a skill marker as the winners tend to actively trade for the skill and there is some financial strength involved in that. Essentially, part of it should be part of pre-scouting for the pro scouts. It isn't just winners on the Mem. Cup either, the teams that get to the finals of it have all undergone the same test. Absolutely agree that junior captaincy is not necessarily a good marker because it is so often given to the most skilled player.

Michalek/Heatley was not just a skill swap. I will let others figure out the implication of that statement because it is very loaded. It was very much part of a dynamic that is one of the most obvious in the league.

Thanks for the support on speed. My rough eyeball check on winners was no less than three fast in the top 6. Right now the Sharks are at two. Both Chicago and Philly are unreal because they have top 6 types with speed playing on their 3rd lines. The 3 don't have to be Marleau fast, but more Seto or a bit more. JT doesn't qualify even though he pushed harder in this last playoffs than I have ever seen.

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06-03-2010, 02:04 AM
  #91
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does anyone here consider trading jumbo?

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06-03-2010, 02:04 AM
  #92
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Agree about additional checks. You know me too well to think otherwise. The Memorial Cup is a perseverance test, one among many, that seems to be missing from the Sharks repertoire (exception Vlasic). You would be surprised at the number of SC winners that have that Mem. Cup in their repertoire. No I don't want to exclude outside of Canada, but if included, that is one factor that should be given weight. It is also a skill marker as the winners tend to actively trade for the skill and there is some financial strength involved in that. Essentially, part of it should be part of pre-scouting for the pro scouts. It isn't just winners on the Mem. Cup either, the teams that get to the finals of it have all undergone the same test. Absolutely agree that junior captaincy is not necessarily a good marker because it is so often given to the most skilled player.

Michalek/Heatley was not just a skill swap. I will let others figure out the implication of that statement because it is very loaded. It was very much part of a dynamic that is one of the most obvious in the league.

Thanks for the support on speed. My rough eyeball check on winners was no less than three fast in the top 6. Right now the Sharks are at two. Both Chicago and Philly are unreal because they have top 6 types with speed playing on their 3rd lines. The 3 don't have to be Marleau fast, but more Seto or a bit more. JT doesn't qualify even though he pushed harder in this last playoffs than I have ever seen.
Despite an absolutely horrendous +/- (which really is hilariously bad), Thornton looked like a fast player in these playoffs. If he decides he wants to spend his summer working out, we might get our third right there. The play where Keith fumbled the puck to Thornton and JT blitzed past him was beyond impressive (even though Keith eventually caught him). If Joe gets himself in good enough shape to play that way 20 minutes a night, he'll get back into the elite group of centers in the league. Maybe he can take Heatley with him. Or maybe Pavelski can take them both, that would be even better.

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06-03-2010, 05:31 AM
  #93
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does anyone here consider trading jumbo?
everyone scoffed at me when I brought up the possibility. He pulls more trade value than any other guy we've got for sure.

If we got a few decent players for him and still had enough to sign marleau I don't see why it's completely out of the question. Thornton slows down the play a ton and it's killer in the regular season but sucks in the playoffs.

In no way was he bad in the playoffs other than the first round and beginning of the 2nd, but since we can't trade heater and can't get any worthwhile value for the rights of marleau/nabby I just wouldn't count it out as a possibility. I wont call for his head but he pulls a lot of value.

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06-03-2010, 05:35 AM
  #94
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does anyone here consider trading jumbo?
No. If you trade Thornton and one of either Marleau/Nabby walks, I'm not sure if the team makes the playoffs. I think a lot of fans take for granted what Thornton brings to the team. Plus, he also has a NTC.

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06-03-2010, 05:49 AM
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So Boyle/Blake/Murray/Vlasic are crap??? So, we won't make the playoffs if we have Greiss instead of Nabokov? Are you serious!?!? 4th in Goals For in the NHL (I think). First in the Confrence, 2nd in the league...but we wouldn't even make the playoffs if we had an OK goalie in net? OK, so why isn't Nabokov the frontrunner for the Hart Trophy and Vezina? Because surely if, a team that wouldn't make the playoffs, all of a sudden being first in the Conf., Second in the NHL because of one player, that player would totally win all of those trophies??? Nabokov didn't steal many games (I already know you're going to say something along the lines of "Well, you only started watching during the PO's, so how would you know, you stupid bandwagon idiot who spells his name wrong") but I remember him stealing 2. @ Detroit in an SO, @ Calgary in a 2-1 win. I understand he had a few games where he played well, and held us in, but not very often.

*Braces self for some stupid insult about how I'm a bandwagon fan.*
Where to start on this one...lol. You really think our D is good? Man... Alright since you don't know, I'm talking about DEFENSIVELY our d corps is crap.

Boyle- Offensively amazing, defensively he isn't going to exactly help out his goalie. Not a shutdown guy, not a shot blocker, misses his assignments from time to time.
blake- again, great shot, but WAY too slow so he lets those killer breakways pass him by.
Vlasic- amazing positioning, but not a shutdown guy either. Doesn't hit enough, not gritty.
Murray- slow, NOT A FIRST FREAKING PAIR DMAN. Follows the puck instead of the man in front of the net or in the slot. Can shut down by intimidation occasionally, but not if the opponents realize
they can skate right around him very easily.

Now compare our D to any of the D's that won the cup since the lockout. Wings-lidstrom(shutdown),kronwall(shutdown),rafalski(not ,but still fast),stuart(shutdown), pens(gonchar, letang, scuderi,orpik,ect) overall pretty well rounded. Anaheim no question they were stacked the year they won with pronger,nieds, beauchemin,and o'donnell.
I'd take any of those top 4's over ours, they all have at least one guy who makes the goalies job a ton simpler.

You answered your own statement, you HAVEN'T been watching the games if you think nabby was not a major factor in many of the wins. Greiss "could" be an average goalie, but he was not given the playing time to really test that. We're relying on a benchwarmer and an AHLer who had a good AHL season.

As for scoring 4th in goals, that's nice and all but allow enough against and you're going to fall in the rankings. Plus we lose some depth this season without blake, with even weaker D, possibly lose marleau too...

also not mentioned is the confidence factor, players will always score more goals in front of a goalie they're confident in. They're more willing to take risks. But that's not a stat you can look up on nhl.com is it.


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06-03-2010, 08:14 AM
  #96
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I say they both go. Scrap Nabby for Turco, and release Marleau to pay for setoguchi and Pavelski.
Marleau's and Nabokov's salary is what like 12 million. We aren't paying pavs and Seto 5 million each. And two million for Turco.

Thats a overpayment for pavs and Seto. Seto needs to become way more consistent to get 5 million.

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06-03-2010, 08:16 AM
  #97
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does anyone here consider trading jumbo?
I did, but I wanted to see how he did in hte playoffs and if his effort was there. And obviously, it was there. And now I want to keep him.

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06-03-2010, 08:50 AM
  #98
JumboPavsForDinRRR
 
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Id like to see marleau stay, I agree that thornton sets how this team acts, and DW is also a driving force of how this team performs...

Im sorry, but you cant let the guy who scored the majority of your goals in the western finals go...
Unless we got kovalchuk, which isn't going to happen for 6-7 mil...

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Old
06-03-2010, 10:27 AM
  #99
Led Zappa
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Our D corp being crap is laughable. Nobody makes it to the WCF with a crap D. We were beat by the team most likely to win the SC and they are only there because of tanking and the CAP room it left to sign top talent while having Toews and Kane on the cheap.

Could our D be better? Of course. But we did what we did while spending to the CAP! The only argument to be made is that we were too top heavy CAP wise in JT/Heater/Marleau. But that doesn't take into account the exceptional deals I think we got in Nichols and Manny. The money we saved right there makes Heater a 5.5 Mil CAP guy if you wanna look at it that way, since all 3 were acquired this year.

Excellent job by the Sharks this year. We just ran into a team that got all the breaks one could hope for in a CAP constricted league.

Oh, and I hope we can find a way to keep Patty on the cheap and Nabby walks.

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Old
06-03-2010, 11:27 AM
  #100
StreetSharks
#19 Joe Trollton
 
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Everyone thinks Nabby isn't an elite goalie, I somewhat agree and disagree



But us sharks fans have bad luck.


Watch next season Nabby sign with the Washington Capitals and carry them to the stanley cup

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