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Old
06-03-2010, 04:11 PM
  #101
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I don't think he is a scrub, I just think he has the worst contract on the team, by quite a large margin. He is a 2nd line player who is paid like a star forward, which he clearly isn't. In a capped league you just cannot pay 6.2 million for a 2nd liner.

Even if he was signed through only this season it would be bad, but ok. The fact that he is signed through 2012 when Doughty, JJ and Simmonds cap hits are going to rise significantly is what makes it really bad.

Just crunching these numbers I just have a hard time seeing how we can fit Kovalchuk, Doughty, JJ and Simmonds while staying under the cap with Smyth's deal.
The good news is you don't have to see how we can fit these salaries under the cap, leave that to management. I'm sure they already have it figured out. And if teams like Philly, Chicago, Detroit, NYR etc can have 4 or 5 contracts all over $5 million (some well over), there's no reason to believe we can't do it either. And he's not getting paid like a star forward, star forwards all make $7 million or more. He's getting paid like a veteran that produces 20 goals and 50 points pretty much every year for over 10 years and is a great presence in the room and team player. I could care less how much Smyth makes, I was the happiest guy in the world when we got him. He has been a King killer his entire career and now he helped get us into the playoffs for the first time in 8 years in his first season on the team.

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06-03-2010, 04:14 PM
  #102
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Smyth's contract is very harsh, but let's not forget, DL struck out (perhaps struck out isn't the appropriate word for 2007 but he definitely hit a pop fly) in multiple years of free agency, including last year. Gaborik was already off the table, he had to do something. Hindsight is 20/20 and his contract is not ideal but almost everyone was in favor of the trade at the time.

The comment "you gotta crawl before you can walk" applies perfectly to our situation at the time. We weren't making the playoffs and couldn't sign a good free agent forward. Now circumstances are different and we can do both those things. The contract hurts but if we need to move Smyth next offseason then there will be no lack of suitors for him, I believe.

For the record I hope DL lets him play out his contract here and then he signs a cheaper deal in 2012. I've always liked Smyth and his game.


Last edited by Live in the Now: 06-03-2010 at 04:26 PM.
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06-03-2010, 04:52 PM
  #103
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You also have to take into account, we made the Avs take Preissing. We would still be paying him and he would be taking up cap space. Look at the Avs, they'd do anything to get rid of him now. We would be buying him out and he would be sitting on our cap just like McCauley is/was doing.

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06-03-2010, 04:57 PM
  #104
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You also have to take into account, we made the Avs take Preissing. We would still be paying him and he would be taking up cap space. Look at the Avs, they'd do anything to get rid of him now. We would be buying him out and he would be sitting on our cap just like McCauley is/was doing.
Yep just read this post

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=26114100&postcount=7

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I'd take him on Colorado if Preissing goes the other way.

Someone please take Preissing

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06-03-2010, 05:00 PM
  #105
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Thanks! Good find. People seem to forget we took on Smyth's contract, but we also got rid of a huge mistake contract. Also, don't forget that it would be nice to have Quincey but he's up for a new (larger) contract this year as well.

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06-03-2010, 05:08 PM
  #106
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Thanks! Good find. People seem to forget we took on Smyth's contract, but we also got rid of a huge mistake contract. Also, don't forget that it would be nice to have Quincey but he's up for a new (larger) contract this year as well.
I was just about to point this out. Sure, this last year Quincey was a steal, but he's about to command a mighty big contract, probably like the one Johnson will get next year.

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06-03-2010, 05:08 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by JBernierFan View Post
Thanks! Good find. People seem to forget we took on Smyth's contract, but we also got rid of a huge mistake contract. Also, don't forget that it would be nice to have Quincey but he's up for a new (larger) contract this year as well.
Blind luck. It was literally the first thread I read on that board right after reading your post.

You sir are a genius in touch with the ebbs and flows of the Avs fans

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06-03-2010, 05:15 PM
  #108
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Quincey had his ups in downs in COL as well, even was a HS in a couple games. Good thing DL kept JJ...

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06-03-2010, 05:45 PM
  #109
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The problem is not this coming season...the problem is going to be next summer, I don't see how you guys are missing this. You can talk about Preissing all you want, his contract means nothing, it ends after this season, not 2012, the Kings are not going to be over the cap this coming season

Drew Doughty, Jack Johnson, Wayne Simmonds all are going to have to be signed to new deals that will double, or more their previous cap hit, almost all of us want to sign Kovalchuk, but you are looking at commiting around $28 million of our cap space to four players for the 2012 season. Obviously of those four players, one doesn't fit in. Plus what about picking up a second pairing d-man? Not likely with the going rate for a #4 d-man these days. Or how about a veteran gritty playoff type guy for the bottom lines...its going to be very hard to do any of this with Smyth's 6 mill a year salary on the 2nd line, heck screw adding, it very well might cost us re-signing Handzus who is our best all around center.

And as for 6 mill the going rate for a 2nd line player, that is totally wrong.

Here are some guys who make within 300k of Smyth or even less.

Patrick Kane
Jeff Carter
Jonathan Toews
Henrik Zetterberg
Mike Cammalleri
Patrik Elias
Daniel Alfredsson
Ryan Getzlaf

You can commit $28 mill to four players, the two teams in the finals are a perfect example, but it better damn well be the right four guys.

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06-03-2010, 06:00 PM
  #110
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Having Kovalchuk, Doughty, Kopitar and Smyth all over $6 million for 1 season will not prevent the Kings from keeping any of the players that they want to keep. If the cap does not continue to grow, the Kings could buy out Smyth next summer if needed and save $3 million against the cap.

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06-03-2010, 06:03 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Sydor25 View Post
Having Kovalchuk, Doughty, Kopitar and Smyth all over $6 million for 1 season will not prevent the Kings from keeping any of the players that they want to keep. If the cap does not continue to grow, the Kings could buy out Smyth next summer if needed and save $3 million against the cap.
This.

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06-03-2010, 06:08 PM
  #112
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Williams also comes off the books next season, saving $3m. And, they can easily move Stoll to clear up another $3m if needed.

Smyth's contract is an annoyance, but it is not handcuffing the team as bad as some are making it out to be.

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06-03-2010, 06:18 PM
  #113
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Williams also comes off the books next season, saving $3m. And, they can easily move Stoll to clear up another $3m if needed.

Smyth's contract is an annoyance, but it is not handcuffing the team as bad as some are making it out to be.
But then who replaces these guys?

They still have to be paid, what is the going rate for a good 3rd line center who wins faceoffs. Stoll was clearly misused by TM last season but in the 3rd line role he is still valuable, its going to suck to lose him for a draft pick. Unless you think two kids making under a mill a year can step into top 9 roles on a team that should by that point be competing for a Stanley Cup.

I really, really want to sign Kovalchuk, but I think like in years past there is going to be some disappointment on this board on July 1st, because there is only so much money to go around.

Gaborik made a ton of sense last summer and DL still didn't do it, I don't see how he is going to add Kovalchuk when he already picked up a big money winger when he traded for Smyth.

I think we will see someone like Plekanec as an UFA or DL will try and trade for Gagne or Carter, since Philly has some cap issues.

Just don't see how an $8+ cap hit can be taken on with our current commitments.

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06-03-2010, 06:33 PM
  #114
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But then who replaces these guys?
Who, Williams and Stoll? Loktionov/Moller, Schenn. That's who. Hell, maybe Kozun bursts onto the scene like gangbusters.

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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Gaborik made a ton of sense last summer and DL still didn't do it, I don't see how he is going to add Kovalchuk when he already picked up a big money winger when he traded for Smyth.
Smyth was a short term solution. Brought in to teach as much to play. DL knows Smyth is not the long term solution that Kovalchuk is.

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06-03-2010, 06:41 PM
  #115
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JDM,

I would have no issues with the whole Smyth contract if it was, as you say a short term solution. If it were a year, maybe two then ok, but three years with a $18 mill cap hit is not a short term solution. That is money you give to a star player, like the ones I listed above.

And going with such young guys is a risky move...even 2-3 years from now the Kings are going to be a very very young team.

Who is going to be our John Madden or Bill Guerin type guy?

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06-03-2010, 06:47 PM
  #116
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What? The Kings wouldn't have made the playoffs without Smyth and everyone would be screaming for DL to be fired. The loss of Smyth was a huge reason why Kopitar tapered off.
The Kings were 10-5 in the 15 games Smyth missed.

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06-03-2010, 06:54 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
The problem is not this coming season...the problem is going to be next summer, I don't see how you guys are missing this. You can talk about Preissing all you want, his contract means nothing, it ends after this season, not 2012, the Kings are not going to be over the cap this coming season

Drew Doughty, Jack Johnson, Wayne Simmonds all are going to have to be signed to new deals that will double, or more their previous cap hit, almost all of us want to sign Kovalchuk, but you are looking at commiting around $28 million of our cap space to four players for the 2012 season. Obviously of those four players, one doesn't fit in. Plus what about picking up a second pairing d-man? Not likely with the going rate for a #4 d-man these days. Or how about a veteran gritty playoff type guy for the bottom lines...its going to be very hard to do any of this with Smyth's 6 mill a year salary on the 2nd line, heck screw adding, it very well might cost us re-signing Handzus who is our best all around center.

And as for 6 mill the going rate for a 2nd line player, that is totally wrong.

Here are some guys who make within 300k of Smyth or even less.

Patrick Kane
Jeff Carter
Jonathan Toews
Henrik Zetterberg
Mike Cammalleri
Patrik Elias
Daniel Alfredsson
Ryan Getzlaf

You can commit $28 mill to four players, the two teams in the finals are a perfect example, but it better damn well be the right four guys.
11-12 Roster, using your numbers (I tweaked a few though):

Kovalchuk (8) - Kopitar (6.8) - Loktionov (.845)
Smyth (6.25) - Schenn (3.14) - Brown (3.175)
Parse (.9)- Stoll (3.4) - Simmonds (2.2)
Clifford (.9) - Richardson (1.2) - Westgarth (.525)
Clune (.618)

Doughty (6.5) - Johnson (3.5)
Scuderi (3.4) - Hickey (1.316)
Greene (2.95) - Muzzin (.9)
Drewiske (.6)

Bernier (2)
Quick (1.8)


ROSTER: 22;
CAP: $60.8m; <- 2M CAP Increase (The CAP has gone up an average of 3.3M every season)
PAYROLL: $61.604m;
BONUSE CUSHION: $3.248m
CAP ROOM: $2.444m

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06-03-2010, 06:56 PM
  #118
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And going with such young guys is a risky move...even 2-3 years from now the Kings are going to be a very very young team.

Who is going to be our John Madden or Bill Guerin type guy?
Madden's and Guerin's can be had relatively cheap, on short term deals, year to year.

This whole time, DL's mantra has been "Get better while getting younger."

Smyth's contract does throw some kinks into the works during the last year of his deal. But there are just so many factors/options at work, I don't think you can allow Smyth's last year of his deal to affect what you go get this summer. If Smyth's contract is a problem, you trade him. A young team needs some leadership (Columbus, Islanders, Edmonton), would be all over Smyth. If Smyth doesn't waive his NTC, you have other options. Move other players, buy Smyth out, hell, bury him in Manchester (he doesn't have a NMC, just an NTC, right?).

Also, the cap has never dropped, even when the economy was at an all time low. If it rises by just 3 million over the next two years, none of this is really a problem.

Realistically, in two years, two of Voynov/Hickey/Muzzin should be affordable, good options on the back end. Loktionov/Moller, Lewis/Cliche, Clifford/King, Westgarth/Clune and Schenn should all be on the roster. If they are ready, they are ready, even if it makes us younger, with the continued development of JJ, DD, Simmonds, Kopi, Brown and even Greene, our core will be strong enough to usher in 1 or 2 new youngsters a year.

You then fill your remaining couple of holes in the bottom six with a guy like Madden, who come fairly cheaply. Madden is, of course, the best of the best, but there will always be some veteran grinder with playoff/cup experience to add to your depth.

I agree that Smyth is a bit overpaid and will make things tough in 2011-2012, he is worth it. I don't mind having a cap issue or two, since, as DIEHARD has pointed out multiple times, being up against the cap has yet to royally screw any team the way many are worried we will screw ourselves due to Smyth's contract.

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06-03-2010, 06:57 PM
  #119
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11-12 Roster, using your numbers (I tweaked a few though):

Kovalchuk (8) - Kopitar (6.8) - Loktionov (.845)
Smyth (6.25) - Schenn (3.14) - Brown (3.175)
Parse (.9)- Stoll (3.4) - Simmonds (2.2)
Clifford (.9) - Richardson (1.2) - Westgarth (.525)
Clune (.618)

Doughty (6.5) - Johnson (3.5)
Scuderi (3.4) - Hickey (1.316)
Greene (2.95) - Muzzin (.9)
Drewiske (.6)

Bernier (2)
Quick (1.8)


ROSTER: 22;
CAP: $60.8m; <- 2M CAP Increase (The CAP has gone up an average of 3.3M every season)
PAYROLL: $61.604m;
BONUSE CUSHION: $3.248m
CAP ROOM: $2.444m
That's a pretty badass roster.

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06-03-2010, 07:00 PM
  #120
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Smyth does have a NMC. Manchester is not an option.

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06-03-2010, 07:03 PM
  #121
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Smyth does have a NMC. Manchester is not an option.
Thanks.

Still many, many options though.

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06-03-2010, 07:06 PM
  #122
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I was trying to figure out how you made it work and then I realized you dropped the second pairing d-man that this team so desperately needs.

Can this team win a Stanley Cup in 2-3 years with Thomas Hickey and Jake Muzzin as regulars?

I don't know, maybe they can, but what happened to Voynov? I'm pretty sure they are much higher on him than they are with the other two.

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06-03-2010, 07:14 PM
  #123
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I was trying to figure out how you made it work and then I realized you dropped the second pairing d-man that this team so desperately needs.

Can this team win a Stanley Cup in 2-3 years with Thomas Hickey and Jake Muzzin as regulars?

I don't know, maybe they can, but what happened to Voynov? I'm pretty sure they are much higher on him than they are with the other two.
That's the idea.

Refer back to the last segment of DL's interview.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lombardi
ďSo to answer your question, I could say that in a perfect world, to make this all fit with the cap numbers, youíve got those defensemen coming, so donít go get them (through free agency or trades), but the thing that might improve you the most is that guy. But heís not there, in the system, until next year. So then it goes back to your other question. If I wait for a forward internally, is there one there? WellÖ Iíve got maybe six swings on defense, and Iíve got maybe two swings up the middle, with the centers (Loktionov and Schenn). So thatís a timing issue. So like I said, if the world was going to blow up in 12 months, you might take the back-end guy. But if youíre putting it all together and you want to be a contender, you might say, `OK, itís not going to be a perfect fit here right now, but Iíve got this coming.í Iím not saying I have the answer for you, but those are all the issues. Itís very hard to say, `This is definitely the right answer.í Thatís not the nature of this job.Ē
If DL doesn't think that Hickey./Muzzin/Voynov will be top 4 regulars in two years, he probably trades one or two of them in the next year for a scorer instead of signing Kovalchuk and signs a dman instead.

If he does think they will be ready, which I believe he does, then he signs a scorer now and plugs in whoeever as #4 dman for a year.

I think one of those dman prospects HAS to hit. Its been the whole point of the rebuild, to have defensive prospects in boat loads that you can A) trade and B) have fill spots on the roster through the years.

One of those guys needs to be our Hjarlmsson (how the **** do you spell that?).

I'm good with a top 4 of Doughty, JJ, Scuderi and Voynov/Hickey/Muzzin in two years. Have to trust your scouts and your drafting.

You also have to remember, our top two 2 in two years should be vastly better than almost any other team. If JJ continues his development as expected, and Doughty gets even marginally better in two years, we don't need to stack the top 4, because we have THE BEST top 2. The middle two just need to be solid and capable of making a tape to tape pass. That doesn't need to cost 3-4 million.

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06-03-2010, 07:44 PM
  #124
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I also think Kovalchuk could be had for less than 8M, and if we absolutely have to, Stoll could be moved.

Kovalchuk (7) - Kopitar (6.8) - Loktionov (.845)
Smyth (6.25) - Schenn (3.14) - Brown (3.175)
Parse (.9)- Richardson (1.2) - Simmonds (2.2)
Clifford (.9) - Lewis (1.2) - Westgarth (.525)
Clune (.618)

Doughty (6.5) - Johnson (3.5)
Scuderi (3.4) - Hickey (1.316)
Greene (2.95) - Muzzin (.9)
Drewiske (.6)

Bernier (2)
Quick (1.8)


ROSTER SIZE 22
SALARY CAP $60,800,000
PAYROLL $57,192,168
BONUSES $3,247,500
CAP SPACE $6,855,332


Lots of options...

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06-03-2010, 07:50 PM
  #125
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Why does Parse signing still bother me so much?

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