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Prospects and Picks needed, Detroit wants to rebuild (hypothetical)

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Old
03-14-2005, 01:36 PM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andora
how about hatcher to either columbus or atlanta.. with some salary paid of course

from atlanta - jeff dwyer and a 7th...
from columbus - andrei plekhanov and a 6th...


If Detroit was going to pay salary to get either of those guys, they might as well just keep Hatcher.

Dwyer can't even crack an AHL line-up.

If Detroit was to pay any of his salary, they'd better be asking for at least a 3rd.

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03-14-2005, 01:39 PM
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
Its going to be hard to get anything for old, soon to be overpriced guys if the NHL gets a tight cap ($42.5m). There could be a lot of experienced, reasonable quality UFAs flooding the market and signing for cheap. Most of the usual suspects are out of the buying market (Wings, Rangers, Toronto, Philly, etc) because they will be close to cap. Detroit is going to stuggle move its own older players for picks/prospects let alone move them some for a decent return. Even then it will only be after teams see how the UFA market shakes out.

These are interesting times.

But, Detroit will be close to or under the 42.5 million when play resumes. CuJo, Yzerman, Shanny, Chelios, Schneider are all off the books.

www.redwingscentral.com has all the figures.

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03-14-2005, 03:43 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
But, Detroit will be close to or under the 42.5 million when play resumes. CuJo, Yzerman, Shanny, Chelios, Schneider are all off the books.

www.redwingscentral.com has all the figures.
Cujo is gone but Shanny's option is a player option. There probably will be a rollback eventhough they have to sign some guys. So they should be safely under.

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Old
03-14-2005, 05:19 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
But, Detroit will be close to or under the 42.5 million when play resumes. CuJo, Yzerman, Shanny, Chelios, Schneider are all off the books.

www.redwingscentral.com has all the figures.

The Wings might be under but they won't have a lot of room to sign guys like Schneider again. That is the point. Its the same with Philly, Toronto, probably the Avs etc. If Van can afford Hatcher it can afford Schneider who might struggle to find better offers at contending clubs (Tampa, Van, few others) since many of the big name clubs won't have much cap room. Schneider won't be the only quality UFA defensemen going around (Neidermayer etc).

If Van paid (Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008) for Hatcher then Detroit would just go out and resign Schneider. What would you rather have

Schneider + Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008
for
Hatcher

Worst case for Van is Detroit free up enough cash to sign Neidermayer. Effectively

Neidermayer+ Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008
for
Hatcher

Wings fans would be celebrating for weeks.

Vancouver and others contenders with cap space would be foolish to help Detroit get payroll down enough that the Wings could move to into the UFA market when Van/other could just go to the overloaded UFA market itself and pick up cheap players.

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03-14-2005, 05:19 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burgess1978

Mathieu Dandenault ($1.6 million)
Tomas Holmstrom ($1.8m)
Darren McCarty ($2.25m)
Ray Whitney ($3.25m)
Brendan Shanahan ($4.0m)
Derian Hatcher ($5.0m)

Let's pretend they traded away all of those guys for appropriate packages and that they didn't re-sign Chelios or Schnieder, and Yzerman retires (just for the exercise). It leaves them with a core that looks like this. These ARE NOT LINES. They are more like depth charts.

... So the exercise here is to see what you can get for the veterans above that would fit nicely with these depth charts. Away you go.
talk about a tough task... the wings will not look anywhere close to as good as they are now. What do you think appropriate pkgs are for the guys above, let's also assume that there'll be a salary cap and a rollback as well:


Mathieu Dandenault ($1.6 million) - why move him in such a situation? rollbacked salary, and you aren't going to get much for him anyways, makes more sense to just use and plug one of your current holes.

Tomas Holmstrom ($1.8m) - same as above... Holmstrom is nice player, but considering what you could get in return, he'd probably just be more valuable keeping. From your above lineup, just move Williams to the 4th unit to plug that hole and keep Holmstrom.

Darren McCarty ($2.25m) - I don't know what you'd be able to get for him, but I doubt it's much. Also have to consider the free agent market, with possibly a reduced age, and there could be other similar options available, at a much better salary. even with a rollback, he's still too expensive for the bottom 6er enforcer role he plays.

Ray Whitney ($3.25m) - you won't get anything for him... in fact I think he could pass through waivers... his salary is overpriced, coming off a bad year, while the free agent market should have lots of better options at more affordable prices for similar players.

Brendan Shanahan ($4.0m) - I think he's still valuable to a team... unlike Whitney, his contribution is more than just stats and he could help out a few teams... Ottawa seems like the perfect fit. With a rollback his salary could be fit by a lot of teams, for the role he could play IMO... you should be able to get the best back for this asset IMO.


Derian Hatcher ($5.0m) - Unlike many here, I don't think his value is as shot as has been discussed. He's a top 3 dman easily. And we've seen enough examples of players struggling their first year with a new team - Blake for example many people had written off as done, in his first full season in Colorado. Hatcher wasn't the Hatcher he used to be, and may never be again, but I'd bet that he's better after last injury-season he had... At $5mill that's not a huge amount for the type of player he is (considering experience as well)... In a rollback league, more teams would be able to slot him as their #2 or #3 on their payroll.

IMO Hatcher could get you back a decent/good prospect or a good young player with 2nd line/#4 dman upside.

Shanahan gets you the most IMO (I'm assuming his contract will go for one more year following a new season?)... with a few teams out there that could use such a player, and given how important playoff revenues will be, you could get a good pkg in bidding among a few teams.

But other than that, that's not enough in assets to remake the team. They will no doubt have a few of those guys above return to the team... maybe one or two get traded, but for the most part I don't think that the flexibility is there for the team to do more than just a few minor moves on their roster.

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03-14-2005, 05:26 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
The Wings might be under but they won't have a lot of room to sign guys like Schneider again. That is the point. Its the same with Philly, Toronto, probably the Avs etc. If Van can afford Hatcher it can afford Schneider who might struggle to find better offers at contending clubs (Tampa, Van, few others) since many of the big name clubs won't have much cap room. Schneider won't be the only quality UFA defensemen going around (Neidermayer etc).
I agree with you that it will affect his value... no way that Hatcher brings back a similar player to what he is in a deal...

but he still has some value to teams... Vancouver for example, could consider making that kinda move once the Niedermayer's, Gonchars, Aucoin's etc have signed... there will always be a few teams that still could use a player like Hatcher, and didn't land one of the comparable or better dmen available in the market.

But then Hatcher's a player that probably couldn't even be moved at all until after the free agent market settles down.

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03-15-2005, 01:29 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by me2
The Wings might be under but they won't have a lot of room to sign guys like Schneider again. That is the point. Its the same with Philly, Toronto, probably the Avs etc. If Van can afford Hatcher it can afford Schneider who might struggle to find better offers at contending clubs (Tampa, Van, few others) since many of the big name clubs won't have much cap room. Schneider won't be the only quality UFA defensemen going around (Neidermayer etc).

If Van paid (Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008) for Hatcher then Detroit would just go out and resign Schneider. What would you rather have

Schneider + Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008
for
Hatcher

Worst case for Van is Detroit free up enough cash to sign Neidermayer. Effectively

Neidermayer+ Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008
for
Hatcher

Wings fans would be celebrating for weeks.

Vancouver and others contenders with cap space would be foolish to help Detroit get payroll down enough that the Wings could move to into the UFA market when Van/other could just go to the overloaded UFA market itself and pick up cheap players.

ok, but i dont see the point in bringing up vancouver.

In fact, the wings went out and signed Hatcher, do you think that they didn't think about the Schneider situation?

I dont see the wings going out and getting any UFA's with more than a million in salary, and i dont think they are going to go after Schneider at all. They offered him a contract before the CBA died, and he wanted to see what else was out there. Wings then signed Hatcher, so i really dont see what you are getting at.

Besides, i thought Vancouver was going to sign God, er, Neidermayer. Why would they want Schneider?

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Old
03-15-2005, 01:48 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk

I dont see the wings going out and getting any UFA's with more than a million in salary, and i dont think they are going to go after Schneider at all. They offered him a contract before the CBA died, and he wanted to see what else was out there. Wings then signed Hatcher, so i really dont see what you are getting at.
I thought they signed Hatcher prior to last season to a multiyear deal... so last hockey season, both Schneider and Hatcher were signed?

So it wasn't so much the wings offered Schnedier a contract first, and when he decided to test the market, they signed Hatcher... I thought they had signed Hatcher last offseason, prior to the 2003/4 season, when Schneider was already under contract?


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Old
03-15-2005, 07:38 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I agree with you that it will affect his value... no way that Hatcher brings back a similar player to what he is in a deal...

but he still has some value to teams... Vancouver for example, could consider making that kinda move once the Niedermayer's, Gonchars, Aucoin's etc have signed... there will always be a few teams that still could use a player like Hatcher, and didn't land one of the comparable or better dmen available in the market.

But then Hatcher's a player that probably couldn't even be moved at all until after the free agent market settles down.
That's how I see it playing out. Hatcher has almost no value while there are alternatives that can be had for the same money on the UFA market. Once they are gone, the Wings pick up a million or two and get something decent back in return. Until then its an a very difficult sell.

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Old
03-15-2005, 07:40 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
I thought they signed Hatcher prior to last season to a multiyear deal... so last hockey season, both Schneider and Hatcher were signed?

So it wasn't so much the wings offered Schnedier a contract first, and when he decided to test the market, they signed Hatcher... I thought they had signed Hatcher last offseason, prior to the 2003/4 season, when Schneider was already under contract?


got my dates mixed up

in any event, they never would have signed Hatcher if they wanted to keep Schneider.

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Old
03-15-2005, 07:50 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
ok, but i dont see the point in bringing up vancouver.
The only teams that would target Hatcher would be team that are contending and have payrolls well under any supposed cap.

Vancouver was one of the teams (in this thread) taking a run at getting Hatcher. They may also have enough cap space in a post-lockout situation. They seemed like a logical choice to base a hypothetical around.

Quote:
In fact, the wings went out and signed Hatcher, do you think that they didn't think about the Schneider situation?

I dont see the wings going out and getting any UFA's with more than a million in salary, and i dont think they are going to go after Schneider at all. They offered him a contract before the CBA died, and he wanted to see what else was out there. Wings then signed Hatcher, so i really dont see what you are getting at.
If they could get a return like Krill Kolstov + Denis Grot + 2nd 2005 + 8th 2008 for Hatcher they would be stupid not to take it. That would also free up enough cash to pick up Schneider as a replacement for Hatcher. I'd do that in a second if I was Detroit!

Quote:
Besides, i thought Vancouver was going to sign God, er, Neidermayer. Why would they want Schneider?
Got to have a backup plan in case God goes elsewhere or stays in NJ. Van/others would only start looking at Hatcher as an option if they missed on Neidermayer, then missed Schneider, then ...., etc etc.

I think the market for older, expensive guys is almost dead until they get through the backlog of UFAs. Kariya, Demitra etc being UFAs are going to make it hard to move guys like Lang and Shanny for decent returns.

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Old
03-15-2005, 08:35 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by me2
Kariya, Demitra etc being UFAs are going to make it hard to move guys like Lang and Shanny for decent returns.
I disagree on Shanahan... I think he could still get a good solid return on the market, regardless of free agency.

There aren't players like him available... Kariya isn't Shanahan either.

Shanahan could help a lot of contenders out there, especially Ottawa, where he seems to be the perfect "missing piece"... a left winger, plays gritty and most importantly brings lots of big game experience.

I don't think there is a contender in the league that he couldn't help.

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