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Old
06-06-2010, 11:06 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by FreddieBisco View Post
That Miller choice was 11 seasons ago, and he lucked out on him in the 5th round.Just look at the last few seasons of Regier's work, and you'll see how pitiful his performance is.

Wasting 2 2nd rounders in a row on Torres and Moore.Wasting a 2nd and 3rd for a 5/6 d-man in Rivet with overrated leadership and deteriorating playing skills.Overpaying for Gaustad,and Pominville (). How many of his top selections has he totally flubbed?Kruikov,Novotny,Persson,Zagrapan,Brennan?

Be happy with lucking out to a division win (Even though the 3rd and 4th place division teams made it farther then us : )

And just wait til this off-season, when Buffalo makes zero impact additions, same old song from Darcy..."The market wasn't right" "The money thrown around was to crazy for us"

It's funny, everyone around here ridicules teams that spend through FA, saying it isn't the "right" way to try to compete, even though we have never known for ourselves how it would turn out, one of Darcy's best lines is saying he would rather be active in the trade then FA market, which shows how terrible he is with assets, trades you have to give to get, FA you just have to open the wallet.

I love how you mention all these first round flubs Regier has had. Name me another GM that has been employed with a team 13 yrs straight and gone 13/13 in the first round picking great players. The draft is a crap shoot. How you throw out Brennan's name as a bust is beyond me.Also the guy is a 2nd round pick. The same second round Darcy has gotten proven players like Roy and Pominville. Some pretty great prospects in Weber,Enroth,Adam and McNabb. Zagrapan when drafted was a high risk/high reward player. Go back to the draft thread pretty much all of us were happy with the pick. Why dont you mention 1st rounders like Vanek, Ennis and,Myers. who look like they will be high end players Even first rounders like Paille,Stafford and Ballard are playing right now in the NHL. Who know's how Kassian turns out for them as well.

You talk about how he overpaid Pominville?? What do you think he was worth coming off of a 27 goal 80 pt season in his 3rd season in the league. The season before he had the second most even strength goals in the league with 34. Gaustad got paid for leadership,faceoff ability, leading by example work ethic and it also helped to keep Miller around as he was his best friend on the team. You think Miller would have re-signed with the Sabres if they kicked his best buddy out the door??

I have no problem with the trade for Rivet. The picks were by far worth giving up to get a guy on the team that would bring some work ethic, heart,veteran leadership and a pair of balls to this team. Something this team completely lacked as evidence to them naming him their captain in his first season.

Lucking out to a division win?? Seriously explain your logic on that one?? I'm not going to sit here and say the Sabres were not complete garbage in the playoffs. I'm also not going to discredit losing Hecht for the playoffs, Kaleta playing with cast on his hand, Rivet with two torn labrums, Connolly playing on a broken foot, Gaustad being banged up and missing Vanek till the last game of the series. Coaching had a big part as well, its no secret they need a coach that can draw up a real power play. It has been a big problem with the Sabres for quite a few years now.

My biggest problem with Darcy is he waits to long to get what he thinks is maxed value in trades. For the most part I haven't seen him have the crap end of a trade though when he has made one.

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06-07-2010, 08:55 AM
  #102
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My biggest problem with Darcy is he waits to long to get what he thinks is maxed value in trades. For the most part I haven't seen him have the crap end of a trade though when he has made one.
Personally, I think that Regier is an above average GM.

He's not a great GM and he's not the worst GM in history.

And while I wouldn't be shocked if the guy that replaces Regier is worse than Regier, I also think it's getting near the time that Sabres make a change as Regier has gotten the team close a few times, but has never gotten them over the hump and to the promised land.

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06-08-2010, 01:44 AM
  #103
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That's simply not true. Golisano isn't going to pay someone to be a figurehead. No sane owner is.
It is true - Golisano gave Quinn a minority stake in ownership because of the confidence he placed in him. In two separate TV interviews that I saw Golisano give before Quinn's promotion, Golisano himself said explicitly that, while he tries to communicate daily with Quinn, Regier and DiPofi, he lets them manage the hockey department 100% because he deems them more experts than himself. That was also when he lived in Rochester and attended Sabres games - since he's moved to Florida and is more interested in dating Monica Seles than going to watch his hockey team, I doubt things have changed for the better.

Besides, given his different political quests, whoever said Golisano is sane anyway?

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06-08-2010, 01:51 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jeremy2020 View Post
I think the question that others and myself have about the situation is where is the line drawn. Who has more influence? What restrictions does Darcy face when trying to make moves?

If we bring in another GM, it's not going to be some strong willed figure that would tread on Quinn's toes. It's likely going to be someone in a much weaker position than Darcy.

I'd like to be sure that the situation is actually beneficial and not giving Quinn more control which I feel would be disastrous.
All one has to do is look at the past Sabre players that Quinn deemed expendable for cost-cutting (LaFontaine) or egotistical/grudge (Briere, McKee) reasons and look where they are. Look then at others that Quinn endorsed repeatedly because of their fan popularity (Afinogenov) or value contracts (Roy) and they overstay their time in Buffalo.

Every true Sabre fan needs to read former TBN beat reporter Budd Bailey's annual accounts of Sabre seasons that picked up from the "Celebrate the Tradition" book after the 1989-90 season and went all the way to 2001-02. Sabresfans.com has the stories in their history section - there is ample documented accounts of Quinn's power-quest and need to be the grand puppetmaster. Bob Swados book' "Counsel in the Crease" adds further insight on how Quinn operates as well. Then read the reports/articles in the past that talk about Quinn's ego-trip in trying to get the waterfront development going.

Those smug and arrogant comments we hear him make at every press conference or radio interview are not out of character....

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06-08-2010, 06:44 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
It is true - Golisano gave Quinn a minority stake in ownership because of the confidence he placed in him. In two separate TV interviews that I saw Golisano give before Quinn's promotion, Golisano himself said explicitly that, while he tries to communicate daily with Quinn, Regier and DiPofi, he lets them manage the hockey department 100% because he deems them more experts than himself. That was also when he lived in Rochester and attended Sabres games - since he's moved to Florida and is more interested in dating Monica Seles than going to watch his hockey team, I doubt things have changed for the better.

Besides, given his different political quests, whoever said Golisano is sane anyway?
I fail to see how this argument is convincing of anything other than the opposite of your point. Golisano does not pay them to be figureheads, but to run the day-to-day operations of the club. If anything the person with a 'figurehead' salary would be Golisano himself, if he even pays himself a salary.

Ta,

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06-08-2010, 06:49 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
All one has to do is look at the past Sabre players that Quinn deemed expendable for cost-cutting (LaFontaine) or egotistical/grudge (Briere, McKee) reasons and look where they are. Look then at others that Quinn endorsed repeatedly because of their fan popularity (Afinogenov) or value contracts (Roy) and they overstay their time in Buffalo.

Every true Sabre fan needs to read former TBN beat reporter Budd Bailey's annual accounts of Sabre seasons that picked up from the "Celebrate the Tradition" book after the 1989-90 season and went all the way to 2001-02. Sabresfans.com has the stories in their history section - there is ample documented accounts of Quinn's power-quest and need to be the grand puppetmaster. Bob Swados book' "Counsel in the Crease" adds further insight on how Quinn operates as well. Then read the reports/articles in the past that talk about Quinn's ego-trip in trying to get the waterfront development going.

Those smug and arrogant comments we hear him make at every press conference or radio interview are not out of character....
If any of that were actually true then Regier, who could walk from this job to just about any job in the NHL, would never have re-upped with the club. I'm not defending Quinn or anything, but this just seems like bias-fueled conjecture. How do you or anyone else around here KNOW that Regier and Quinn haven't been in agreement about a number of these personnel decisions? None of these have been out-of-character for Regier with or without Quinn looking over his shoulder, ie. Peca. Larry Quinn makes a convenient Iago for all of the things people don't like about the Sabres. Whether it has any basis in fact or not, is unknown.

Ta,

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06-08-2010, 06:54 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip View Post
All one has to do is look at the past Sabre players that Quinn deemed expendable for cost-cutting (LaFontaine) or egotistical/grudge (Briere, McKee) reasons and look where they are. Look then at others that Quinn endorsed repeatedly because of their fan popularity (Afinogenov) or value contracts (Roy) and they overstay their time in Buffalo.

Every true Sabre fan needs to read former TBN beat reporter Budd Bailey's annual accounts of Sabre seasons that picked up from the "Celebrate the Tradition" book after the 1989-90 season and went all the way to 2001-02. Sabresfans.com has the stories in their history section - there is ample documented accounts of Quinn's power-quest and need to be the grand puppetmaster. Bob Swados book' "Counsel in the Crease" adds further insight on how Quinn operates as well. Then read the reports/articles in the past that talk about Quinn's ego-trip in trying to get the waterfront development going.

Those smug and arrogant comments we hear him make at every press conference or radio interview are not out of character....
Just stop now, you are embarassing yourself.

Look, we all know Quinn has influence and say in some decisions, but none of us know how much.

But this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabretip
It doesn't really matter what Regier says or doesn't say - every decision or direction that is made on hockey personnel comes from Quinn and no one else.
is just asinine.

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06-08-2010, 07:13 AM
  #108
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Quinn fancied himself a burgeoning GM-to-be in his first run as president. He's got control issues with personnel. Complete? That I don't know, but he's in on far too many day-to-day hockey decisions for my liking.

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06-08-2010, 09:04 AM
  #109
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Regier is the GM, and he's ultimately responsible for the personnel decisions that are made. If he doesn't have the authority he needs to do his job, that doesn't lessen his accountability.

This comfortable little setup they have, where it's impossible to know who's ultimately pulling the strings, is complete BS. We all know Quinn is meddling, and if Darcy's willing to put up with it, at the expense of the roster, than he should just do us all a favor and GTFO.

When a new GM comes in and we see the same pattern of behavior, then we'll at least know where things stand.

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06-08-2010, 09:39 AM
  #110
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Regier is the GM, and he's ultimately responsible for the personnel decisions that are made. If he doesn't have the authority he needs to do his job, that doesn't lessen his accountability.
In my job, I bolted from a position where people tried to hold me accountable for stuff that I had no authority over.

That position is horrible.

The problem with Regier's position is that we have no solid idea on how much authority he has over decisions that SHOULD be his and his alone.....

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Originally Posted by jlr View Post
This comfortable little setup they have, where it's impossible to know who's ultimately pulling the strings, is complete BS. We all know Quinn is meddling, and if Darcy's willing to put up with it, at the expense of the roster, than he should just do us all a favor and GTFO.

When a new GM comes in and we see the same pattern of behavior, then we'll at least know where things stand.
Why should Regier do Sabres fans a favor?

It's not like NHL GM jobs grow on trees.

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06-08-2010, 10:29 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Why should Regier do Sabres fans a favor?

It's not like NHL GM jobs grow on trees.
And that's exactly why I'm not really expecting any changes in the front office. It's too comfortable of a setup for both of them, with no real pressure from above to win anything.

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06-08-2010, 10:48 AM
  #112
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And that's exactly why I'm not really expecting any changes in the front office. It's too comfortable of a setup for both of them, with no real pressure from above to win anything.
I think there is pressure to win.

There is pressure to win enough to produce enough revenue to make the business work to BTG's satisfaction.

And given how ticket sales and interest in the team has remained solid, there has been no negative impact to the bottom line, so there is no pressure to improve over the on ice results that have been delivered.

I'm sure the 20 home playoff dates over the past 5 seasons have helped the bottom line as well.

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06-08-2010, 10:53 AM
  #113
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lets change the thread name to: leave darcy alone!!!

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06-08-2010, 01:35 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jim Bob View Post
Why should Regier do Sabres fans a favor?

It's not like NHL GM jobs grow on trees.
Exactly. If your boss comes in and tells you they are changing company policy and there will be an aspect of your job that is impaired in some way, would you quit?

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06-08-2010, 01:53 PM
  #115
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Exactly. If your boss comes in and tells you they are changing company policy and there will be an aspect of your job that is impaired in some way, would you quit?
It depends on the paycheck!

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!

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06-08-2010, 02:06 PM
  #116
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It depends on the paycheck!

SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!
Let's assume you're making pretty good money for your skills and you can't solicit other jobs while in your current position so you're leaving to unemployment.

So do you quit or do the best you can do in the situation?

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06-08-2010, 02:53 PM
  #117
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Let's assume you're making pretty good money for your skills and you can't solicit other jobs while in your current position so you're leaving to unemployment.

So do you quit or do the best you can do in the situation?
If I'm making Darcy Regier money, they would have to pry me out of the office with about 5 security guards.

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06-08-2010, 04:53 PM
  #118
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I think the idea that the front office doesn't want to win is ridiculous.

The problem isn't want. The problem is [potentially] approach and being too risk-adverse.

Quinn would love nothing more than to win a cup so he could toot his own horn. He doesn't understand what it takes, however.

Darcy knows what it takes, mostly. But he's so sub-consciously afraid of truly "going for it". If he did and he missed, he would look like a failure instead of just an above-average GM.

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06-08-2010, 05:51 PM
  #119
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I think the idea that the front office doesn't want to win is ridiculous.

The problem isn't want. The problem is [potentially] approach and being too risk-adverse.

Quinn would love nothing more than to win a cup so he could toot his own horn. He doesn't understand what it takes, however.

Darcy knows what it takes, mostly. But he's so sub-consciously afraid of truly "going for it". If he did and he missed, he would look like a failure instead of just an above-average GM.
i cant disagree with the quinn part, but i think thats a no brainer.. nobody is in it to lose. as for the darcy part.. we dont know if hes afraid, or just doesnt believe in it, or if he truly is handcuffed by his bosses.. fact of the matter is results, because in sports its all you have. you look at the results FIRST then you look at the process it took to get there and you use that data to build a case for or against a team/gm/etc.

there are multiple ways to look at it though.. what if the owner cares more about making money than winning it all/entertaining the fans? different scenario, but from my perspective, and most other fans, its about winning. we dont shell out money cuz we want to line the pockets of the players/gms/owners/sponsors etc.. we shell out money because we want to support a WINNER. also, id like to think most fans are knowledgeable enough to see the difference between a team who can win in the regular season vs a team who can win in the playoffs.. and i like to think most paying fans like to see a playoff team over a presidents trophy/division winning team.

it isnt stupid to compare your team to other teams/gms/players etc.. its a competitive sport, and youre supposed to be compared to your opposition at all times.. thats the whole idea! there isnt a right or wrong way to be a gm.. but there is a good/bad way, and imo, its all in the comparisons you can make between a winner and a loser. when you have a chance to see all of the playoffs every year and for the most part you can see similarities between these various champions, you can contrast your own team to the elements that make up a champion.. if those elements are consistently not addressed and added to your own team through the means in which a team has the ability to right itself, then youre probably doing a bad job. of course there are tons of variables, but at the end of the day, did you do the best you could to make your team the best it can be using all possible means?

imo small market, bidding wars, overpriced, valued assets not worth giving away etc, are all talking points in the politics of sabres hockey PR.. and considering the nature of the salary cap era in hockey, they are just excuses used to divert attention from their own inability to keep up with the competition - thats just how i see it. and in my opinion, too many fans are buying into what they are selling.. and that is a huge reason this team has forged a tradition on being complacent during the times when other teams that also had bad results are actively reshaping their personnel.

if you keep making excuses for why this team hasnt won a cup EVER, and can almost never seem to keep momentum in the right direction, then you are giving the management everything they need to hear in order to keep doing what theyre doing. we simply havent been doing what it takes to our team to make it into a contender.. we'll be a pretender as long as we dont bring those cup winning elements in through trade/FA, because you cant build a champion on draft luck alone. just doesnt happen in pro sports. even the people who make fun of pitt and chicago for having good draft luck and it being a reason theyre winning fail to acknowledge that those teams still annually bring in valuable personnel through FA and trades. the sabres.. DONT.


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06-08-2010, 06:10 PM
  #120
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different scenario, but from my perspective, and most other fans, its about winning. we dont shell out money cuz we want to line the pockets of the players/gms/owners/sponsors etc.. we shell out money because we want to support a WINNER. also, id like to think most fans are knowledgeable enough to see the difference between a team who can win in the regular season vs a team who can win in the playoffs.. and i like to think most paying fans like to see a playoff team over a presidents trophy/division winning team.
I think for a lot fans, it's not just about winning.

If it were, then STHs wouldn't have renewed in huge numbers in the summers of '08 & '09, right?

Heck, throw '07 in there too.

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06-08-2010, 06:20 PM
  #121
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I think for a lot fans, it's not just about winning.

If it were, then STHs wouldn't have renewed in huge numbers in the summers of '08 & '09, right?

Heck, throw '07 in there too.
being a STH is an investment, not only are you preserving your potential seat to see some future amazing team, but theres also a good profit to be made selling your tickets online.

but to your point that winning isnt the most important thing.. sure, STH can be used in an argument for that, but STH can also be used in my argument that people are buying into the excuses that management make every year, and re-up with false hopes... the, "theres always next year" mentality. meanwhile management does bare minimum to improve the team, holds onto prospects that they over value, and dont go out to get the important pieces the team is clearly lacking in comparison to the teams who make it deep into the playoffs.

being a fan is a complex duty, and the reasoning behind why a person is a fan is always going to varry.. however, for me and im sure plenty others.. wanting the team to win is more important than most other aspects of a team. sure being entertained for entertainments sake is probably pretty common in fan bases, but im gona tune in to watch the team every night regardless of whether every player on the team can toe grag through 5 guys or if they can barely stay on their feet. winning is why i tune in. i dont care if its fancy or not, winning, winning, winning.


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06-08-2010, 06:30 PM
  #122
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if you keep making excuses for why this team hasnt won a cup EVER, and can almost never seem to keep momentum in the right direction, then you are giving the management everything they need to hear in order to keep doing what theyre doing.
Who is making excuses?

I just don't agree with the premises that Darcy and Larry do not want to win or that Darcy is simply a figure head or that every decision is business based.

Darcy is an above-average GM with a history of being risk-adverse and not hedging the future. I think that is something most of us can agree on, not an excuse.

Whether or not he has the capable to do his job long enough and better enough than 31 other GMs to win a cup is what the issue should be.

Can he? I think so. Will he? I think that is far less likely.

----

To put it another way:
I get very annoyed when I see fans using their frustrations with the team and the results to criticize Darcy for anything and everything. Just because he has some obvious failures, it does not make all criticisms valid and reasonable. It is perfectly reasonable for another fan to take issue with a specific criticism of Darcy while still not being happy with him or thinking he isn't getting it done.

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06-08-2010, 06:37 PM
  #123
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Who is making excuses?

I just don't agree with the premises that Darcy and Larry do not want to win or that Darcy is simply a figure head or that every decision is business based.

Darcy is an above-average GM with a history of being risk-adverse and not hedging the future. I think that is something most of us can agree on, not an excuse.

Whether or not he has the capable to do his job long enough and better enough than 31 other GMs to win a cup is what the issue should be.

Can he? I think so. Will he? I think that is far less likely.
hold on let me thumb through the thousands of threads where people give darcy the benefit of the doubt, ill be right back.

31 other GMs?

to the point about not hedging the future.. awesome, we hang on to players who pan out to be average.. pat on the back darcy! successful teams have to be willing to part with some future assets to land difference makers from time to time (thats why trading exists). i can think of quite a few players that could have used some hedging in the past who we hung on to and ultimately got either nothing out of or now have little to show for having kept them.

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06-08-2010, 06:44 PM
  #124
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To put it another way:
I get very annoyed when I see fans using their frustrations with the team and the results to criticize Darcy for anything and everything. Just because he has some obvious failures, it does not make all criticisms valid and reasonable. It is perfectly reasonable for another fan to take issue with a specific criticism of Darcy while still not being happy with him or thinking he isn't getting it done.
who are fans supposed to hold responsible for the results? its not the fans fault, we clearly support the team whether they deserve it or not.. is it the coaches fault? if so, hes still here, firing him is the GMs job. is it the players fault? if so, theyre still here, trading them is the GMs job. or is it the owners fault? if so.. what difference can he make other than getting rid of the GM?

a teams general manager is responsible for the outcome. i understand you give a guy a chance to correct his path.. but every year, the same song and dance? really? that guy deserves the benefit of the doubt? hm.

way i see it, in sports, because its such a fan crazy spectacle, money gets tossed towards teams whether they win or lose. in other businesses, when a product is ****, the customers go away, GMs get fired, products get changed, they go out of business etc. just because there is support doesnt mean the fans arent getting hosed, imo.

in the sabres case.. its about a city full of people used to losing for generations, the bar is lower than in most other sports cities, the pressure isnt there from the fans or the media regularly enough to motivate an absentee owner or GM to make dramatic changes, so they dont. ive been watching sabres hockey for about 20 years.. ive personally seen enough of this garbage and i think the bar needs to be raised. thats just me, thats why im here posting.

if things were just jolly old grand and we were winning id be singing a different tune. but nothing ever changes, ive grown to dislike too much about my team and the common denominator for reasons i can come up with as to why this team cant put it together.. is the GM. tommy G is too busy playing golf and cashing his checks down in florida to give a **** about what fans (his paying customers) want to see.. so the duty falls on the shoulders of regier. quinn too? sure why not. either way, theyre the management of the team and the jobs not getting done.

if people want to sit there and say that regier isnt to blame, its quinn or golisano, thats fine.. i cant necessarily say i know otherwise. what i can say is that to my knowledge it is the GMs job to handle personnel.. if it is because of tommy or larry, well then were just ****ed for life arent we? as a fan, should i be less upset in the case that its not regiers fault? like, "well at least i was wrong that it was regiers fault, thank god, everything seems much better now that i know its the owners fault!" ... same situation, substitute quinn/golisano for regier in any anti regier post and it has the same theme - the results are **** and someone running the organization is responsible


Last edited by fightclubber25: 06-08-2010 at 07:02 PM.
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06-08-2010, 06:48 PM
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I figured this doesn't deserve it's own thread, and since this is about Regier, it might as well go here:

Quote:
"I have talked to everyone in the league, and that would include Brian, but I'm not going to get into the details of it," Regier said.

The general manager said he has had talks with representatives for the Sabres' top free agents, defensemen Toni Lydman and Henrik Tallinder. They will talk again over the next week.

"You're balancing ways to make the team better in conjunction with trying to sign them," Regier said. "Certainly, they're both quality people, quality players. It'll come down to decisions and costs."
http://blogs.buffalonews.com/sabres/...-and-ufas.html

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