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Old
06-06-2010, 11:21 PM
  #26
PredsV82
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this thread is rapidly unraveling..

Viq, didnt I read on the Jax board that Noel said he'd rather be a head coach in the AHL than an asst in the NHL? Or did he just mean he didnt want to return as an asst in C-bus?


I want Noel because he was a winner, with several of the players he would have here.

I dont know if he could do anything about the PP or not, but i do think he'd be a good addition.

On another note has anyone heard if Pederson is getting any interest in any of the head coaching positions that are open?

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06-07-2010, 07:48 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
This is completely untrue.

The strategy is, "Get the puck to Weber who has his shot blocked out high and turns the puck over, leading to an odd-man rush."
Replace Weber with Delmore and you have exactly what caused the downfall of our PP oh so many years ago.

All of this is eerily similar to our strategy with Zidlicky: "Get the puck to Zidlicky whose shot goes three feet high and four feet wide of the net and wraps around the glass and out of the zone."

We can complain about the power play all we want, but to paraphrase Dulzhok, "it's about top line talent." There are few very good power plays with the lack of forward skill that we have.

Looking at the top 10 PPs from last year, only Minnesota and LA stand out as teams that don't have skillsets demonstrably better than ours. Of course, when you look at their PP units with players like Koivu and Kopitar, they are still likely a step better than us.

And looking at Columbus' talent, outside of Nash, it's not particularly impressive either. So I'm not sure I fault Noel. Good PKs will stop a PP that centers around one key element and has little supporting talent that threatens the PK.

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06-07-2010, 08:02 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Replace Weber with Delmore and you have exactly what caused the downfall of our PP oh so many years ago.

All of this is eerily similar to our strategy with Zidlicky: "Get the puck to Zidlicky whose shot goes three feet high and four feet wide of the net and wraps around the glass and out of the zone."

We can complain about the power play all we want, but to paraphrase Dulzhok, "it's about top line talent." There are few very good power plays with the lack of forward skill that we have.

Looking at the top 10 PPs from last year, only Minnesota and LA stand out as teams that don't have skillsets demonstrably better than ours. Of course, when you look at their PP units with players like Koivu and Kopitar, they are still likely a step better than us.

And looking at Columbus' talent, outside of Nash, it's not particularly impressive either. So I'm not sure I fault Noel. Good PKs will stop a PP that centers around one key element and has little supporting talent that threatens the PK.
We iced a power play full of specialists at one point. Sullivan, Kariya, Timonen, Zidlicky...those units didn't fare much better. It's the byproduct of playing for three defense-first coaches. There simply isn't a lot of offensive vision there. Even 5 on 5, we're a far more adaptable team defensively than offensively. If our offensive "system" is shot down by whatever the other team is doing defensively, we're usually pretty well screwed. Of course that is going to reflect on the power play.

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06-07-2010, 08:18 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Replace Weber with Delmore and you have exactly what caused the downfall of our PP oh so many years ago.

All of this is eerily similar to our strategy with Zidlicky: "Get the puck to Zidlicky whose shot goes three feet high and four feet wide of the net and wraps around the glass and out of the zone."

We can complain about the power play all we want, but to paraphrase Dulzhok, "it's about top line talent." There are few very good power plays with the lack of forward skill that we have.

Looking at the top 10 PPs from last year, only Minnesota and LA stand out as teams that don't have skillsets demonstrably better than ours. Of course, when you look at their PP units with players like Koivu and Kopitar, they are still likely a step better than us.

And looking at Columbus' talent, outside of Nash, it's not particularly impressive either. So I'm not sure I fault Noel. Good PKs will stop a PP that centers around one key element and has little supporting talent that threatens the PK.
Look at Montreal. They have a pretty good PP and their talent level is on par with us.

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06-07-2010, 10:27 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Look at Montreal. They have a pretty good PP and their talent level is on par with us.
I would disagree on talent being equal, but I don't think their advantage is significant. I like their group of Cammalleri, Gionta, Gomez, and Plekanec over our group.

But you are holding up one example to refute my argument. There are always rogue results. You have dominant offensive talent having subpar power plays, such as the Penguins this year. And you have the Minnesota sneaking into the top 10. But they are anomalous in nature.

The top power plays, year in and year out, are the teams that have legitimate superstar talent. And the bottom power players, year in and year out, are the teams with limited superstar talent. You can always point to an example that deviates from this trend, but on the whole, it's pretty clear that talent drives this much moreso than coaching.

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06-07-2010, 10:53 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
this thread is rapidly unraveling..

Viq, didnt I read on the Jax board that Noel said he'd rather be a head coach in the AHL than an asst in the NHL? Or did he just mean he didnt want to return as an asst in C-bus?
That's what we'd heard, but nobody has any idea how to interpret that. Folks who appreciated his work at the end of the season presumed that that meant he'd be a shoo-in for Springfield, but he seems to not be interested in that, so I'm not sure what to believe.

Maybe he'll make an exception for Nashville. Or maybe that means he wants to take Boucher's job in Hamilton (presuming Boucher accepts our offer). I frankly have no clue.

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06-07-2010, 11:02 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
We iced a power play full of specialists at one point. Sullivan, Kariya, Timonen, Zidlicky...those units didn't fare much better. It's the byproduct of playing for three defense-first coaches. There simply isn't a lot of offensive vision there. Even 5 on 5, we're a far more adaptable team defensively than offensively. If our offensive "system" is shot down by whatever the other team is doing defensively, we're usually pretty well screwed. Of course that is going to reflect on the power play.
Those units fared much better. The Preds have only had a power play that is outside of the league's bottom 8 three times: 03/04 through 06/07. They were 11th, 10th, and 18th overall during those three years. Those also happen to be the years that encompassed the healthy Steve Sullivan, Paul Kariya, Marek Zidlicky and the last three years of Timonen as a Pred.

Those were our most talented power plays (they still never compared to the elite PPs in the league though) and they were our most successful, by far.

I don't think the issue, as it relates to coaching, is our players having a lack of vision, in and of itself. I think the coaching issue is more of a developmental one. I don't think Trotz has any sort of track record developing top 2 line talent.

There's only two Predator draft picks that are surefire top 2 line talents, and one plays in Russia. The other is Hornqvist. Legwand, Erat, and Hartnell are all borderline top 2 line talent. The result is that Poile would have to be extremely shrewd in trading or extremely generous on the free agent market.

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06-07-2010, 11:06 AM
  #33
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So, Claude Noel.. yay or nay?

to the person posting about Coach P.. I don't think he'll be taking a head coaching job.

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06-07-2010, 12:05 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by codeyh View Post
So, Claude Noel.. yay or nay?

to the person posting about Coach P.. I don't think he'll be taking a head coaching job.
that was me.

do you believe that because he isnt interested, or other teams arent interested?

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06-07-2010, 01:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PredsV82 View Post
that was me.

do you believe that because he isnt interested, or other teams arent interested?
i think it is because of his parkinsons. no team will admit, since it would be a bit taboo to say it.

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06-07-2010, 02:06 PM
  #36
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It's good to know that we in Columbus are not the only ones that have a sky-is-falling we're-all-doomed outlook during the PP LOL. This has been a fun thread. I will say that Noel was the whipping boy two seasons ago when our PP was epic-level bad. Here is a funny thread from the beginning of this season.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=644647


I remember reading a piece about Noel where he basically said that he wouldn't be accepting any more assistant coaching positions. He wanted to be the guy, he felt that he was so much more effective when he could be the guy, etc. I'll try and find a link.

edit: Here is a link quoting the original article, which i couldn't track down.

http://www.sportingnews.com/blog/The...e-a-head-coach

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06-07-2010, 05:49 PM
  #37
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RT @Aportzline: #CBJ will introduce coach Scott Arniel at 3 p.m. on Tuesday

Different coach but same result. So can Nashville lure Noel to an assistant gig?

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06-07-2010, 06:43 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
RT @Aportzline: #CBJ will introduce coach Scott Arniel at 3 p.m. on Tuesday

Different coach but same result. So can Nashville lure Noel to an assistant gig?
I'll get tarred and feathered if I post this on the CBJ board at this hour (have to wait a bit for the inferiority complex mourning process to fade), so I'm posting here:




As for Noel... still no idea.

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06-07-2010, 09:09 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I would disagree on talent being equal, but I don't think their advantage is significant. I like their group of Cammalleri, Gionta, Gomez, and Plekanec over our group.

But you are holding up one example to refute my argument. There are always rogue results. You have dominant offensive talent having subpar power plays, such as the Penguins this year. And you have the Minnesota sneaking into the top 10. But they are anomalous in nature.

The top power plays, year in and year out, are the teams that have legitimate superstar talent. And the bottom power players, year in and year out, are the teams with limited superstar talent. You can always point to an example that deviates from this trend, but on the whole, it's pretty clear that talent drives this much moreso than coaching.
I would disagree to some degree here yet again using Montreal as an example. They lost Souray and Streit in successive years yet continued to ice a decent PP even though they lost big weapons from the blue line. They did pretty well this year again with Markov out for a good chunk of the year.

Talent aside, how hard is it to say, plant yourself in front of the goalie and stand there? Hornqvist does it because I think he loves doing it. I think enjoys getting under the skin of the opponent. In 11 years, who else has had that passion? Hartnell maybe? If that's the only 2 players in 11 years of having a franchise we can come up with, we either have done a horrible job of drafting, don't have guys with any heart/persistence or the staff has not given this a directive. I can't tell you how many times I've seen one guy behind the net with one guy on each side of him below the red line. I have seen this over the years with many different players so I beg to ask the question, is that the players deciding to do this or a coaching strategy? If it's a coaching strategy, how can the staff get them to do that but not one guy will plant his body in front of the goalie?

Talent is a key to a successful PP but there are multiple other components that make it work too. Here's a list to me that encompass a good PP:

1) Winning face offs
2) Controlling the puck off the face off
3) Getting the puck to the point for a quick shot while the other team is not in position causing guys to be open and able to pick up rebounds. It also allows a lot of traffic in front of the net causing screens to the goalie which lead to a lot of good things to happen.
4) Screen the goalie/planting someone in front
5) Crisp passing
6) Finding the 2 on 1 somewhere in the zone
7) Movement amongst the players
8) Good low shots to the net into traffic and not just blasting away
9) Winning board battles
10) The ability to adjust to what the opponent is giving you

Some of these are talent based, some are coaching based. Some are based on tenacity and heart.

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06-08-2010, 07:52 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
I would disagree to some degree here yet again using Montreal as an example. They lost Souray and Streit in successive years yet continued to ice a decent PP even though they lost big weapons from the blue line. They did pretty well this year again with Markov out for a good chunk of the year.
The issue is that Montreal is one of the very few examples of a power play that is great despite not having great individual parts. That's 1 of 30 teams. If it was replicable, more teams would be doing it. That some team caught lightning in a bottle is not very convincing that this is a coaching based failure/success. To me, this is the exception that proves the rule.

If it was coaching based (and we could expect better coaching to result in a better power play), there should be plenty more examples of undertalented teams having great power plays. By and large, the relevance of a coach is overstated by the fanbases. It's more likely that Montreal's incongruent success is the result of a missassesment by the fan of the talent they possess on the power play.

One other thing I noticed in looking at the top power plays, the consistent them amongst theme is great forwards, not great pointmen. Don't know if great power plays inflate stats making us think player XX is a great forward, so I'm not concluding either way. Just saying that maybe talent at the blueline isn't the primary factor in PP success. Could help explain why we've never been great.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Talent aside, how hard is it to say, plant yourself in front of the goalie and stand there? Hornqvist does it because I think he loves doing it. I think enjoys getting under the skin of the opponent. In 11 years, who else has had that passion? Hartnell maybe? If that's the only 2 players in 11 years of having a franchise we can come up with, we either have done a horrible job of drafting, don't have guys with any heart/persistence or the staff has not given this a directive. I can't tell you how many times I've seen one guy behind the net with one guy on each side of him below the red line. I have seen this over the years with many different players so I beg to ask the question, is that the players deciding to do this or a coaching strategy? If it's a coaching strategy, how can the staff get them to do that but not one guy will plant his body in front of the goalie?
You are making the same complaint that millions of fans across the continent make. Why can Thomas Holmstrom do what he does and XX player, who has the same size and better skill, cannot? There are only a handful of players with the skillset (including heart/desire in that skillset) to play in front of the net effectively and for long periods of time. At first blush, I'm not sure there are even 10 of those types around.

And that is more player/personnel related and not coaching. Getting traffic in front of the goalie is a desire of virtually every coach. It's in every coaches game plan, to some degree. Having Hornqvist is a luxury that kept our PP from being the league's worst.

The problem is, we don't have anyone else that cleans up the rebound mess. When the puck goes towards the net, we are almost entirely reliant on it either going in or a rebound finding Hornqvist in a manner that allows him to put it back on net. The problem is, he's often tied up with the opposing defenseman/men. And we lack any other net crashers. Arnott is a perimeter player now, and Sully is an injury risk and not suited to that.

Back to the overall point we are discussing, this isn't a coaching issue. It's a talent issue. We have one gritty forward surrounded by a very weak, injury prone Sullivan and a very soft, perimeter big guy in Arnott. And none of those three has the pure skill to create consistent scoring chances without relying on a screened goalie and/or rebounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Talent is a key to a successful PP but there are multiple other components that make it work too. Here's a list to me that encompass a good PP:

1) Winning face offs
2) Controlling the puck off the face off
3) Getting the puck to the point for a quick shot while the other team is not in position causing guys to be open and able to pick up rebounds. It also allows a lot of traffic in front of the net causing screens to the goalie which lead to a lot of good things to happen.
4) Screen the goalie/planting someone in front
5) Crisp passing
6) Finding the 2 on 1 somewhere in the zone
7) Movement amongst the players
8) Good low shots to the net into traffic and not just blasting away
9) Winning board battles
10) The ability to adjust to what the opponent is giving you

Some of these are talent based, some are coaching based. Some are based on tenacity and heart.
As for those criteria that you listed, the vast majority are attributed to the players. I think we go crazy analyzing coaching and attributing team failures and successes to coaching.

On the NHL level, there aren't any head coaches that are head and shoulders above the rest. Teams succeed because the players play smart, effective hockey and have the talent to generate and convert scoring chances consistently. Powerplays are no different.

We can either conclude that it's coaching and go an a desperate search to capture the magic that Montreal is tapping in to. Or we can recognize the fact that they appear to be one of the only teams that has found that magic and recognize that a mere coaching change probably won't solve anything in the long-term without talent changes.

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06-08-2010, 07:59 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
RT @Aportzline: #CBJ will introduce coach Scott Arniel at 3 p.m. on Tuesday

Different coach but same result. So can Nashville lure Noel to an assistant gig?
Unfortunately for CBJ, I think Boucher recognizes that it's an 'unlikely to succeed' situation. And why risk coaching for CBJ for two years, get canned because you don't have the talent that the rest of the division has, and then you are back to square one trying to work your way back to a coaching job.

I think he was wise. There will be more desirable coaching jobs opening up over the next year or two. His window of opportunity isn't likely to close over the next year. And he can let someone take the risk with Columbus. Someone who might not have had a lot of other NHL level opportunities in the near term.

I don't think it's a bad move by Columbus, though I don't think it's anything to be excited about. Their issues are with talent. Until it matures and develops, they'll be a bad team.


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06-08-2010, 03:36 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
Unfortunately for CBJ, I think Boucher recognizes that it's an 'unlikely to succeed' situation. And why risk coaching for CBJ for two years, get canned because you don't have the talent that the rest of the division has, and then you are back to square one trying to work your way back to a coaching job.

I think he was wise. There will be more desirable coaching jobs opening up over the next year or two. His window of opportunity isn't likely to close over the next year. And he can let someone take the risk with Columbus. Someone who might not have had a lot of other NHL level opportunities in the near term.

I don't think it's a bad move by Columbus, though I don't think it's anything to be excited about. Their issues are with talent. Until it matures and develops, they'll be a bad team.
I love how two simultaneous sophomore slumps in vital positions (#1 center and goaltender) and defense injuries leading to fourth-string guys playing second pairing constitutes "lack of talent", especially given that if we'd held on to about half the leads we let slip in the 3rd, and not given up the most overtime losses in the NHL, we'd probably have been a lot closer to 8th than 14th.

I reserve the right to point and laugh at you next year.

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06-08-2010, 03:40 PM
  #43
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I have to agree with the vix, the CBJ basically got bent over by fate last year and maybe could be better with a new coach.

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06-08-2010, 03:54 PM
  #44
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I love how two simultaneous sophomore slumps in vital positions (#1 center and goaltender) and defense injuries leading to fourth-string guys playing second pairing constitutes "lack of talent", especially given that if we'd held on to about half the leads we let slip in the 3rd, and not given up the most overtime losses in the NHL, we'd probably have been a lot closer to 8th than 14th.

I reserve the right to point and laugh at you next year.
Good luck with that. I consulted with my attorney before writing that post and am cleared in the case of a CBJ resurgence as I mentioned that their success is based on the maturation of the current talent. So if they have a great year next year, I'm going to point to that out clause.

We can point towards slumps. But the dangerous thing about sophomore slumps is that there's no guarantee that the 1st year is more indicative of the future than the 2nd year.

In the end, it's the 4th most talented team in the division (talent being physical skill combined with the maturity to put that skill to use). However, it wouldn't shock me to see them finish 3rd again, just like in 2008/2009.

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06-08-2010, 03:58 PM
  #45
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I have to agree with the vix, the CBJ basically got bent over by fate last year and maybe could be better with a new coach.
Can you elaborate on this 'fate' point? Not attacking you, just that it's not entirely how I experienced their season.

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06-08-2010, 04:00 PM
  #46
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Can you elaborate on this 'fate' point?
Fate may refer to:

* Destiny, an inevitable course of events
* Fatalism, a philosophical doctrine

Which in both the fanbases of the Preds and Bugs it's the later not the former.

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06-08-2010, 04:07 PM
  #47
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Good luck with that. I consulted with my attorney before writing that post and am cleared in the case of a CBJ resurgence as I mentioned that their success is based on the maturation of the current talent. So if they have a great year next year, I'm going to point to that out clause.
Well, then, I'll wait 'till my day in court.

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06-08-2010, 04:12 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Fate may refer to:

* Destiny, an inevitable course of events
* Fatalism, a philosophical doctrine

Which in both the fanbases of the Preds and Bugs it's the later not the former.
LOL, ok, let's rephrase...when you say "bent over by fate," can you point to the events/occurrences/circumstances that form the basis for that statement?

Is this the same fate that pummels them on an almost annual basis? I'm pretty sure he has a permanant residence at the Lofts Hotel off Nationwide in Columbus. And then, once they are inevitably eliminated from playoff contention, does he move to the Hilton in downtown Nashville to impose himself upon our Cup hopes?

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06-08-2010, 04:15 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
LOL, ok, let's rephrase...when you say "bent over by fate," can you point to the events/occurrences/circumstances that form the basis for that statement?

Is this the same fate that pummels them on an almost annual basis? I'm pretty sure he has a permanant residence at the Lofts Hotel off Nationwide in Columbus. And then, once they are inevitably eliminated from playoff contention, does he move to the Hilton in downtown Nashville to impose himself upon our Cup hopes?
As Visqi said, both of the layers they needed to be good to be a playoff contender both had sophomore slumps. And let's add the drafting of their former GM.

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06-08-2010, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
As Visqi said, both of the layers they needed to be good to be a playoff contender both had sophomore slumps. And let's add the drafting of their former GM.
Well, I don't consider the slumps to be any manner of unusual. Every team experiences that from key players, especially those with an overreliance on young players. I was thinking you were referring to a series of unfortunate events that are unexpected to re-occur.

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