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What will it take to get Hornqvist signed?

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Old
06-11-2010, 10:19 AM
  #76
predfan98
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I think he does the best with what he has to offer. I agree with the last 2 posters.

We don't see what goes on. I do know that he is extremely hard working. I remember my hubby talking to him at the unmasked thingy year before last when midnight was a deadline for trades. He was crazy occupied with things relating to trades.

I'm glad he's here. Do I question some of the signings? Of course!!!! He signed my favorite "there is no need for player"-------Wade Belak...*sigh* don't get it, but I think we're lucky to have Poile.

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06-11-2010, 10:26 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by token grinder View Post
here is another fact about hornvqist. We absolutely should compare him and his salary to holmstrom. Even in holmstrom's prime. holmstrom has NEVER made over 2.25 million. NEVER

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/1614

The Holmstrom comparison is likely a dud. Hornqvist's team will shoot it down quickly and easily. At age 22/23, Hornqvist had 30 points and 51 points. Holmstrom was 33 when he scored more than 40 points for the first time (he's done it 3 total times). He was 33 when he scored more than 20 goals for the first time (he's done it 3 total times).

At the roughly the same age (Holmstrom was a year older) and both in their second NHL seasons, Hornqvist had 25 more goals and 29 more points. It's just not a strong comparison. And then you factor in the inflationary status of average salaries since the mid 90's and you have a weak comparison.

Average player salary when Holmstrom was 24 was 980k according to the below website. It is now likely to be north of $2 million.

Average NHL Salaries


Last edited by SmokeyClause: 06-11-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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06-11-2010, 11:00 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Legwand: He was the second best player in the draft and Poile took him. Nashville was not going to get Marty no matter what trade happened. By the way, that draft year sucked hard core and Poile still managed to get 4 NHLers when the rest of the league was happy to get 1.
... who is Marty?

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06-11-2010, 11:02 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
... who is Marty?
Whoops my bad, Vincent LeCavlier. Seriously, dieting and thinking don't mix.

(But 75lbs is awesome, now I got to get the last 25.)

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06-11-2010, 11:58 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
The Holmstrom comparison is likely a dud. Hornqvist's team will shoot it down quickly and easily. At age 22/23, Hornqvist had 30 points and 51 points. Holmstrom was 33 when he scored more than 40 points for the first time (he's done it 3 total times). He was 33 when he scored more than 20 goals for the first time (he's done it 3 total times).

At the roughly the same age (Holmstrom was a year older) and both in their second NHL seasons, Hornqvist had 25 more goals and 29 more points. It's just not a strong comparison. And then you factor in the inflationary status of average salaries since the mid 90's and you have a weak comparison.

Average player salary when Holmstrom was 24 was 980k according to the below website. It is now likely to be north of $2 million.

Average NHL Salaries
I disagree. I don't care what horns camp stance is. He isn't eligible for arbitration. I'm sure he is/will be qualified, so nashville's tender will be under a million. he can choose to sign it, or not play nhl hockey. now obviously there is a negotiation becasue he will be worth more than the tender given, that just protects the club so we own his rights. Someone can throw an offer sheet at hm, but agian, if it is high enough I think we take the picks. Nashville, pending an offer sheet, holds all the cards here. now I think the org will do right by him and offer 2-2.5 million, not much more.

in regard to when holmstrom was 24 and not playing, it was a different time, a differnt cba. holmstrom is the best in the world at what hornquist does. You pay a guy for what he does today, not what happened 10 years ago.

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06-11-2010, 12:09 PM
  #81
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re: Poile. So from the tone of the comments passive is a negative and aggressive is a positive? Not sure I buy that. I want a GM that has a plan, is thoughtful, is good at execution, and knows how to fix it when a plan breaks - has a contingency plan. I figure you can be passive or aggressive or whatever and do that.

Now, if by aggressive you are meaning bold, well, he's certainly not a risk-taker as far as spending Preds cash is concerned, so sure, in that context he's not aggressive. Guess what - even if we had the budget to do it I wouldn't want it. How many times do fans find themselves complaining about these overpaid clowns, guys that were signed for too much money and for too long? Not much of a fan of contracts like Gomez and Briere - they aren't franchise changers and you can't justify it. Ovechkin and those true franchise-makers - sure, if you can play above the mid-point and blow off revenue sharing. Otherwise - those contracts are just nuts.

Someone said it recently - I think in this thread - time to complain is when something that really should happen doesn't. Not something we'd like that doesn't happen; but something that's obvious and preventable. Not signing Horny and then he goes and signs a reasonable contract elsewhere - that shouldn't happen, and I think that's when we can start climbing all over Poile. I think it's silly to complain about not signing some free agent that goes off and signs for $6mil+ elsewhere - we all know we don't have that money for anyone with the possible exception of SWeber. 2 sides to a negotiation, and we don't get to see much of either side - hard to determine who's doing what. But for a little team in the south with no corporate support to speak of and who's former owner blew it up 3 years ago - hard to complain bout the results Mr. Poile has helped achieve.

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06-11-2010, 01:19 PM
  #82
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Don't get me wrong. David Poile is a good GM, some would argue great. Let us at least agree that he is in the top 10 group in this league. With that said, he has a few flaws, and passivity is one of them. On the flip side, it is also one of his greatest strengths....i.e. patience.

I think Poile's biggest fault has been his reluctance to make the most of our assets over the last 3-4 years. There has been an undeniable deluge of tremendous prospects, and outside of going for broke in the Forsberg trade (an enormous offering that has not really been matched since....) he has failed to get a scorer. We can all wax poetic on the Kessel fall through, and I will agree that once Toronto upped the money, we were out. Still, something must be said that our number one need, for years, has failed to be addressed.

I get their are a billion other facts and reasons, and I am not going to debate that Poile often has his hands tied. He does. This isn't opinion, it is fact. Radulov's departure hurt badly. The ownership change was a nightmare.....

Still, I can't help but wonder where this team would be if we were more proactive with our assets. This is my one major problem with Poile (that and his notable absence in the FA markets outside of other agents calling him, and lucrative contracts to Legwand/Erat based on potential).

The Hartnell mess is probably the one glaring error on his part IMO. Other than that, I am not sure you could even remotely consider grading him out below a B+. If you look at his drafting....He has to get an A, especially since 2003. The defensive prospect success rate is just silly in how high it is. I made a post on it in the prospect thread awhile back, and it is just asinine how good our scouts/Poile are at plucking defensive talent out of the draft.

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Old
06-11-2010, 02:16 PM
  #83
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Enoch, two things, the Hartnell mess I think was more a by product of the sale of the team as opposed to what Poile wanted to do. The other thing is, you say Poile should've been more proactive with our assets. Well, if we can't re-sign Hamhuis, Grebs and Bouillon, those assets that you're talking about on the blue line are gonna have to play this season. If all three walk, our depth has taken a big hit. While I see your point and it would've been great to add a piece or two up front, maybe Poile knew this day was coming sooner or later and while it seems like we're hoarding blueline prospects, I have a funny feeling this is the offseason that they're gonna come in handy. Heck, Franson is a free agent too and if he walks that is just one more piece that we have to fill as well.

I do agree that his one weakness is addressing the needs at forward thru the draft. He has done well to supplement his weakness by signing free agents or trading for forwards over the years. Still needs to be better there.

I would have to say his ability to pick d and goalies is top 5 in the league though, along with his staff.

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06-11-2010, 02:26 PM
  #84
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The Hartnell saga is really more on Trotz than Poile, but the one year deal given to an impending free agent was sheer stupidity. Hartnell ended up getting 4.5 million a year from Philly, but their were quotes at the time from his teammates (I believe it was Legwand) saying a contract at or slightly more than 3 million a year would have gotten it done. I wish we could go back in time and reverse that decision, but Poile made his bed there.

I wasn't too upset with how we handled the trade deadline this year, save for not trading Ellis (and even then I understand not trying to screw up chemistry). I have always been in the minority on the value of backup goalies. I think Ellis's worth was more for how he was in the clubhouse than anything else...He certainly had virtually zero value on the Predators after we signed Rinne to the extension. Anywho, I guess, in a long winded fashion, I am saying that Poile's moves at this deadline this year were good. We protected ourselves if Hamhuis leaves, and we improved our team for the cup-run. It was a shame that Grebs went down with injury almost immediately because it puts in doubt whether or not we will tender him and it hurt us in the playoffs. Still, the move was excellent IMO.

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06-11-2010, 02:34 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
The Hartnell saga is really more on Trotz than Poile, but the one year deal given to an impending free agent was sheer stupidity. Hartnell ended up getting 4.5 million a year from Philly, but their were quotes at the time from his teammates (I believe it was Legwand) saying a contract at or slightly more than 3 million a year would have gotten it done. I wish we could go back in time and reverse that decision, but Poile made his bed there.

I wasn't too upset with how we handled the trade deadline this year, save for not trading Ellis (and even then I understand not trying to screw up chemistry). I have always been in the minority on the value of backup goalies. I think Ellis's worth was more for how he was in the clubhouse than anything else...He certainly had virtually zero value on the Predators after we signed Rinne to the extension. Anywho, I guess, in a long winded fashion, I am saying that Poile's moves at this deadline this year were good. We protected ourselves if Hamhuis leaves, and we improved our team for the cup-run. It was a shame that Grebs went down with injury almost immediately because it puts in doubt whether or not we will tender him and it hurt us in the playoffs. Still, the move was excellent IMO.
I have heard the same things about Hartnell and agree with you that it was more a Trotz thing than Poile. Can't go back in time there.

I also was pleased with the moves we made at the deadline this year.

Looks like we're on the same page with all of this. Whoohooo.

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06-11-2010, 04:55 PM
  #86
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With all due respect, Dulzhok is discussing facts as well. He's just adding in his opinion. Whether we like the opinion or not, it's a valid one from a valid poster. This board would be pointless if we just rehashed facts read in the Tennessean or elsewhere.


I understand all of what you said and agree. I was more or less just poking fun at the idea that we can't discuss facts on here. I didn't intend for it to be taken as anything but playful prodding.

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06-11-2010, 05:33 PM
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I am really uncertain how anyone could even remotely consider Poile as NOT being passive. As far as I can tell, he may be the most passive general manager in the game.
how would you know?

just because we dont see him publicly talking about wheeling and dealing, doesnt make him any less active than other GM's.

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06-11-2010, 05:37 PM
  #88
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how would you know?

just because we dont see him publicly talking about wheeling and dealing, doesnt make him any less active than other GM's.
Even if Poile made Burke like noise the TN media wouldn't report it. trust me, we see more Preds rumors and coverage from Canadian outlets than TN outlets.

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06-11-2010, 07:44 PM
  #89
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Re: Hartnell.... so glad he isn't on our team anymore. I too missed him at first, but I'm tired of his antics and style. He does more harm than good. Prior to the last series of the playoffs, Philly fans wanted him gone. They probably still do. A few games doesn't make up for a season of suckage.

If I were to fault Poile, I'd look more at the NMC's he handed out which has really handcuffed ourselves this summer.

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06-11-2010, 08:03 PM
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Re: Hartnell.... so glad he isn't on our team anymore. I too missed him at first, but I'm tired of his antics and style. He does more harm than good. Prior to the last series of the playoffs, Philly fans wanted him gone. They probably still do. A few games doesn't make up for a season of suckage.

If I were to fault Poile, I'd look more at the NMC's he handed out which has really handcuffed ourselves this summer.
While I agree with you on the NMC's, I think Trotz's comments at the end of the season about Dumont and Arnott may have them asking for a trade out of here. Not saying it will happen by any means but those were not glowing reviews of either of them by any means. I wonder if we don't see some draft day trades and then a re-signing of a few of our free agents once the dust settles and before free agency starts. I'm guessing here but I can't imagine Dumont will be happy with less than 15 minutes a night playing on a 3rd or 4th line and the comments made about Arnott and his leadership abilities might have him unhappy too.

NMC's are a tricky thing but sometimes coaches and GM's can make comments that indirectly make players ask for trades. We'll see.

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06-11-2010, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Predanerd View Post
Re: Hartnell.... so glad he isn't on our team anymore. I too missed him at first, but I'm tired of his antics and style. He does more harm than good. Prior to the last series of the playoffs, Philly fans wanted him gone. They probably still do. A few games doesn't make up for a season of suckage.

If I were to fault Poile, I'd look more at the NMC's he handed out which has really handcuffed ourselves this summer.
Hartnell at 3 million is a lot different than Hartnell at 4.5 million. You don't get much slack at that salary. Look at how hard we are on Legwand and Erat, then up it a notch for a rabid fanbase that is also up against the cap.

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06-11-2010, 08:31 PM
  #92
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He's passive but what tools does he have to attack? He's low on the cash needed to sign players. He can't give out a risky stupid contract because he can't afford it and look at Milwaukee, there is enough talent there to help Nashville when they need a player.

Let's look at the roster and see what have been the points of contention in Poile's career.

Legwand: He was the second best player in the draft and Poile took him. Nashville was not going to get Marty no matter what trade happened. By the way, that draft year sucked hard core and Poile still managed to get 4 NHLers when the rest of the league was happy to get 1.

Arnott and Dumont: Starting to show their age and because of that they are underachieving. Is that Poile's fault? Is Poile to be blamed for time passing?

Passive in signing big FAs: Ok, give him the money to go git er done! Oh wait that's the ownerships' fault not Poile's.

What CAN you give him credit for?

Drafting: Seriously, this guy drafts talent look at his late rounders: Rinne, Erat, Hornqvist. His draft record is like the Beatles' record catalouge; hit after hit after hit. Last year was phenomenal, so was the year before so was the Legwand/Erat draft only because of the amount of suck that happened to be in it and he still managed to get a good draft out of it.

Cheap FAs he DOES sign: Dan Ellis, Chris Mason, Joel Ward. Most of these guys are junkheap scraps and with the combo of Poile and Trotz they turn chicken **** into chicken salad.

Talking to Canadians gives you a perspective. Most of the wonderful people up north would genocide Nashville to get their hands on both Poile and Trotz. Look at the teams Balisillie tried to steal: Pittsburgh, need I say more? Nashville, and Phoenix; who looks like a talented teams. He didn't go after any scrubs but went for talented teams.
First, SmokeyClause, "Why does Hartnell look so homeless?"

Second, as a Canadian I guess I just got called out, and speaking for myself, Poile is a GM I'd love to have if we ever lost Mike Gillis in Vancouver, whom I'm a fan of, but I can't compare who I like better because the difference in situations may as well be different sports. Gillis can be seen as "aggressive" with his $20 million offer to grab Sundin, offering to take Lukowich off San Jose's hands and place his $1.5 million salary in the minors as compensation for us getting Erhoff for a wasted couple of prospects, heck, he even spent $2-3 million on a DRESSING ROOM UPGRADE for the Canucks as a sign of how much we love our players. It's even noted here that the Canucks spend millions on perks for the players as a way to get around the salary cap.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/h...188/story.html

Poile is in an opposite situation, and given what Nashville has accomplished with such constrained resources earns a fair bit of respect from those I talk to. I agree with the notion you can be aggressive when you have the ammunition to fire, but when all you've got is a bayonet and a tazer, you kind of have to let the enemy get close to you before you can make your move. What do I mean by that? I think Nashville may be in a situation where you have to let the big dogs fight over the prized crown jewels, but then you swoop in and and scavenge the under-valued emeralds and other gems. You'll miss out on the best, most flashy pieces, but if done smartly, you can put together something that punches above its weight, and Nashville's record in that regard speaks for itself, as does the fact that Poile was nominated as one of the best GM's in the league by his peers. Think about that, while we may be disputing whether or not he's a good or active GM, serving the needs of his team, those who actually are in the thick of the battle and pick up his phone calls give him the nod of respect.

Here's another angle that Gillis has stated is a strategy of his, that I think may work well for a "patient" GM like Poile, with the salary cap in place, many teams will rush to sign free agents, find themselves over the cap, and then be desperate to unload players for pennies on the dollar. By waiting till the end of deadlines, it'll stress out the fans, but Nashville can take advantage of bigger budget teams that are desperate to unload good players they just don't have room for. Vancouver taking two quality NHL defensemen (Erhoff and Lukowich) in exchange for two blown draft picks who will never see the light of street-hockey (Patrick White and Daniel Rahimi) is a classic example.

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06-11-2010, 08:55 PM
  #93
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I think passive can be looked at a few ways. One way is what we see as a direct result of his work. We see the trades, the signings and the drafts. That is what we know happens.

What we don't see is how any of that is accomplished. So on the surface it may look passive but what goes on behind closed doors is anybody's guess. How many of us think he's sitting by the pool right now drinking margarita's enjoying the hot humid summer here in Nashville? Maybe he's down at CMA Fest getting his favorite country stars signatures all week. Then again, maybe he's on the phone with agents of his free agents, talking to his scouts, talking to ownership and trying to figure out how to re-sign a bunch of guys with very little money to do so or talking to other GM's about trades so he can free up some money to keep some of the guys he wants to? Just because one is not outwardly aggressive doesn't necessarily make them passive either.

I'd say he's cool, calm and collected more than anything. If he didn't like the situation here he could've left for greener pastures as he's had some offers from teams up north such as Toronto. He would've had an open check book yet he remained here. Personally, I'm glad he stayed as he knows how to keep a competitive team on the ice year after year. Am I always happy with the end result, no but I see some growth in this team and hopefully that keeps getting better and better.

As far as the thread goes, he has a tough job ahead of him to re-sign Hornqvist and a few others. Getting him signed along with a few of the defensemen will be his biggest challenge. Hornqvist needs to be re-signed plain and simple. What it's going to cost is anybody's guess at this point.
Yup. If he's smart enough to know that Nashville won't be a player in some of the bigger deals, and smaller deals are contingent upon teams knowing what they will and won't get on the bigger deals, and he needs to know what Nashville will get on the smaller deals, then he has no choice but to wait, doesn't he? Let the big fish go where they go, let the losers settle for smaller deals, and then he'll know what's still available for Nashville to get in the game for. He may want to deal, but everyone else may be in a waiting mode. That's why deals fall like dominoes once the first move is made, because it clarifies to everyone else what is still on the table, and the variables and options become more manageable.

Just to throw this out there, what if he's waiting for Dumont and/or Arnott to come back with a decision on their trade status? That could be the killer that's keeping him from making decisions on Hamhuis or even a budget around Hornqvist. There may be a deal in the works to bring in a scoring forward, and that may change the picture of how much Nashville can afford to pay Hornqvist. Assuming there's an option for a long-term, lower salary deal versus a short-term big money deal, a decision to sign Hornqvist may be all but done, but until a clearer picture of some other variables is available, Poile may rightly decide to hold back on the high or low salary option. That's not being passive, that's actively looking for as many options as necessary.

As my role model Donald Trump once said, it's better to hold decisions till later in the game, because that's when you'll have more information. It'll burn you sometimes, but being the last to move is a valid strategy, and for Nashville, is arguably the appropriate one.

BTW, Poile's drafting record, and Nashville's recent involvement in European prospect signings and the Predators name coming up in talks about college free agents (I can't remember who, but a highly sought after college free agent recently noted that Nashville was on his short-list before he finally signed with another team) shows some other things that Poile is up to. If he's not signing RFA's or making trades, he does seem to keep himself busy, making sure he knows his prospects and drafts well while also looking to sign overlooked undrafted players.

I'd take that over a loud-mouth, Southern-Ontario GM who holds press conferences to announce his neckties, has his coach get fined for publicly expressing interest in UFA's before the deadline is up (the Sedins, I think Toronto was fined $25,000 for it), needs to announce his team is in the bidding for every conceivable player, but then drafts poorly when he hasn't given up his lottery picks to Boston. Burke is the definition of "active", and I'm not so sure you should trade what you got for him.

Trust me, Nashville, it could be worse, Toronto is being referred to as the North Korea of the NHL up here.

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06-11-2010, 11:06 PM
  #94
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Hartnell at 3 million is a lot different than Hartnell at 4.5 million. You don't get much slack at that salary. Look at how hard we are on Legwand and Erat, then up it a notch for a rabid fanbase that is also up against the cap.
Hartnell at 3M was just a pipedream rumor. I know it came from pred303 during a party, but I have my doubts about it's legitimacy.

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06-12-2010, 12:25 AM
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Hartnell at 3M was just a pipedream rumor. I know it came from pred303 during a party, but I have my doubts about it's legitimacy.
well, I dont have any doubt about the conversation happening. It was at the unmasked ball. As I recall it was Legwand teling 303 or handtrick that that was what hartnell said he would sign for. The guys actually went to Polie and told him what had been said... now whether hartnell had said it or not, or meant it, is another matter.

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06-12-2010, 08:54 AM
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well, I dont have any doubt about the conversation happening. It was at the unmasked ball. As I recall it was Legwand teling 303 or handtrick that that was what hartnell said he would sign for. The guys actually went to Polie and told him what had been said... now whether hartnell had said it or not, or meant it, is another matter.
I remember hearing that story. Wasn't it at the unmasked ball during the same season that at the end of that season is when Liarpold sold the team?
( If it was the year before---- none of this unfounded speculation makes senses---- I can't quite remember)

If so, Liarpold was talking for months before that spring unmasked ball to Ballsack and others!!
We didn't know it at the time, but Poile might have. He might have not been able to act on Hartnell.

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06-30-2010, 11:35 PM
  #97
Seth Lake
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Quote:
The Minnesota Wild have signed forward Guillaume Latendresse to a two-year contract extension worth $2.5 million per season.

Latendresse blossomed in Minnesota last season after coming over in a trade from the Montreal Canadiens. After posting two goals and one assist in 23 games with Montreal, Latendresse was dealt to the Wild on Nov. 23 for Benoit Pouliot. Latendresse responded by scoring 25 goals and 12 assists in 55 games with Minnesota.
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326211

I think that is a good comparable for the Preds and Hornqvist. $2.5 million/year sounds right to me...

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07-01-2010, 12:07 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by SLake View Post
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326211

I think that is a good comparable for the Preds and Hornqvist. $2.5 million/year sounds right to me...
Id sign off on that in a hurry

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07-01-2010, 10:11 AM
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BigFatCat999
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Would Poile slant the contract so that there is more money towards the end of the contract?

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07-01-2010, 10:26 AM
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PredsV82
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Originally Posted by BigFatCat999 View Post
Would Poile slant the contract so that there is more money towards the end of the contract?
if anything, the opposite.

he has more money to play with this year than next now that arnott is gone.

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