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[Trade Deadline] Islanders-Canucks

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Old
06-14-2010, 12:04 AM
  #26
Nuckles
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
I didnt see that game obviously, but the two games I did see one last year and one 2 or maybe 3 years ago he looked terrible in both, one as I said they pulled him from the game and he looked like he was gonna cry when they showed him on the bench afterward, the color commentator made a big deal of it on versus
WOW. No duh he is better than 2 years ago. It is called development. Stamkos to this day is better than Stamkos 2 years ago.

Goalies take much longer than forwards and defensemen to develop into good NHL goalies.
Saying he looked bad in a couple of games 2 years ago means nothing to this day.

He is better goalie than 2 years ago.

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06-14-2010, 12:10 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
First off, why make a proposal for the trade deadline now? I mean, the season just ended! Lots can change between now and then... As highly regarded as he is right now, it wouldn't surprise me if Hamonic cracked the Isles next year, and then all bets are off for sure!

Schneider is a tough case. He has been underwhelming at the NHL level for the most part, in fact, I'd go so far as to say that he's looked like a deer in headlights at times. Dominating the 'A' is an accomplishment, but by no means an indicator of future NHL success. He should be Luongo's backup next year, but I'm not sure he'll be afforded much of an opportunity to grow if he's only getting a start every five or six weeks. Gillis & Co may talk big about giving Lu more time off but until they put their money where their mouth is, I'll take it with a grain of salt. If they are to move Schneider, best to package him ASAP with a guy like Raymond or Bieksa, and try to get something of significance. I just don't think he's as valuable an asset as Canucks fans think, and his value may only go downhill from here.
thanks for the backup, you may be right, I may be letting one bad game affect my opinion too much but it was one of those games that stay with you....I dont think Ive ever seen someone pull so fast at the start of a period, no more than like 30 seconds probably, and then as the camera watched him and he looked ready to cry

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06-14-2010, 12:13 AM
  #28
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I told you this would end in tears.

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06-14-2010, 12:14 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
WOW. No duh he is better than 2 years ago. It is called development. Stamkos to this day is better than Stamkos 2 years ago.

Goalies take much longer than forwards and defensemen to develop into good NHL goalies.
Saying he looked bad in a couple of games 2 years ago means nothing to this day.

He is better goalie than 2 years ago.
Im not disputing that, but I want to see him improve before I trade a top prospect for him

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06-14-2010, 12:16 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
Im not disputing that, but I want to see him improve before I trade a top prospect for him
Which...all things considered...we're not trading THIS top prospect for him at this time. There's no real reason to continue the bantering.

Hamonic to the Isles right now is greater than Schneider to the Isles. It's really that simple for all of the reasons that have already been pointed out. Our work is probably done here.

,
Mitch

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06-14-2010, 12:18 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Which...all things considered...we're not trading THIS top prospect for him at this time. There's no real reason to continue the bantering.

Hamonic to the Isles right now is greater than Schneider to the Isles. It's really that simple for all of the reasons that have already been pointed out. Our work is probably done here.

,
Mitch
...SCHNEIDER FOR TAVARES

I'm just joking, so no flame war

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Old
06-14-2010, 12:20 AM
  #32
Bullet Tooth Tony
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
thanks for the backup, you may be right, I may be letting one bad game affect my opinion too much but it was one of those games that stay with you....I dont think Ive ever seen someone pull so fast at the start of a period, no more than like 30 seconds probably, and then as the camera watched him and he looked ready to cry
Well, with Schneider, you only have 10 career games to go on so it's pretty hard to ignore a sieve-like performance or two. His career goals against and save percentage are 3.46 and .887, respectively. Not exactly inspiring totals. I saw that Dallas game, he definitely looked good, and perhaps he's worked through some of his confidence issues, but I'm just not confident that Vancouver is a good place for him to grow as a player. Training camp and practices only can go so far...

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06-14-2010, 12:23 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
...SCHNEIDER FOR TAVARES

I'm just joking, so no flame war
I will say I absolutely love how Kesler plays, I watch alot of Canuck games because hes so good.... He reminds me of John Tonelli because he never quits, Id love to get him on the Isles

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06-14-2010, 12:23 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitchy22 View Post
Which...all things considered...we're not trading THIS top prospect for him at this time. There's no real reason to continue the bantering.

Hamonic to the Isles right now is greater than Schneider to the Isles. It's really that simple for all of the reasons that have already been pointed out. Our work is probably done here.

,
Mitch
I totally agree with Mitch based on the numbers game....Rick,Roloson Mikko Koskinen,Kevin Poulin,plus Anders Nilsson (still in Europe).
Ricky & Rolo on the Island...Poulin will likely be in the AHL as well as Koskinen.

So trading away our best D prospect wouldn't make sense for the rebuilding Isles.

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06-14-2010, 12:28 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Bullet Tooth Tony View Post
Well, with Schneider, you only have 10 career games to go on so it's pretty hard to ignore a sieve-like performance or two. His career goals against and save percentage are 3.46 and .887, respectively. Not exactly inspiring totals. I saw that Dallas game, he definitely looked good, and perhaps he's worked through some of his confidence issues, but I'm just not confident that Vancouver is a good place for him to grow as a player. Training camp and practices only can go so far...
I wish Id seen that one it would give me a better more balanced view of his ability, As I said I was really affected by that but I'd hate to unfairly judge the kid if it was an aberation. hopefully in october Ill get to see more of him, I'm also goping to see Hodgson up as well because I wanted the Isles to draft him 2 years ago

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06-14-2010, 08:11 AM
  #36
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I would never trade solid forward of defensive prospects for a goalie, especially a goalie prospect. You can find serviceable goalies in the UFA market every season. Not to mention half the good goalies in this league come out of no where. Goaltending isn't what it used to be. You can ride a "decent" goalie if you are strong elsewhere. I wouldn't even draft a goalie in the 1st round. To me, building from the net out is dead. Just my view. I know others will disagree and post a photo of Brodeur with the cup.

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06-14-2010, 08:38 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BJo View Post
I would never trade solid forward of defensive prospects for a goalie, especially a goalie prospect. You can find serviceable goalies in the UFA market every season. Not to mention half the good goalies in this league come out of no where. Goaltending isn't what it used to be. You can ride a "decent" goalie if you are strong elsewhere. I wouldn't even draft a goalie in the 1st round. To me, building from the net out is dead. Just my view. I know others will disagree and post a photo of Brodeur with the cup.


Just look at the Stanley Cup finalists this year...

As for the proposal the Isles are committed to rebuilding through the draft and are not giving up thier best prospects for other teams decent ones. They MIGHT trade away some second rate prospects for established players and even throw in a pick or two, but there's no way they're giving up anything like Hamonic for a goalie prospect. The Isles have taken three goalies lately and should be set in net for the future with one or two of those.

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Old
06-14-2010, 09:01 AM
  #38
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At this point the Islanders and the fanbase dont know what we will have come training Camp.

-Rolo at 41 years of age came off a great year but its not definate he'll have what it takes to go 50-60 games.
-Dipeitro IS SUPPOSED to be 100% (as per Snow) at training Camp but I think we wil all beilive that when we see that. We aslso dont know what type of goaltender he will be if he is recovered.
-Koskinen is coming off an Injury of his own but put up solid effort upon his return to the ECHL at the end of the season and in the opening round of the AHL Playoffs. He should be the starting goaltender of Bridgeport.
-Kevin Poulin recently signed out of Juniors is a highly regarded prosepect. Hopefully he will be the starting goaltender of the Utah Grizzlies (ECHL) this year to get him playing everyday.
-Anders Nilsson is currently offerd an entry level deal and has till the 15th of june to accept. It is currently belived that he will stay in Sweden one more year before making the pond jump.
-Stephan Riderwall chose not to accept and Entry level deal to be the number one goaltender of his hometown SEL team and forfited his NHL rights.
-The Islanders also have a UFA in former prospect Nathan Lawson whom could be resigned to be their AHL Backup and Ferry man between the NHL/AHL.

Its also possible that snow will get a third NHL goaltender like this past season.




All of this point to the fact the Islanders will have to go into camp and evaluate their situation at goaltending. However Hamonic has hit a point in his development where he has surpased all other prospects in the Islanders system. He is beleive tobe NHL ready at this point but might be held back in the AHL to get more seasoning before making the jump durning the season. The Islanders would not trade this prosepct for just anything. This is not a downing assesment of Schneider. Its just one that the Islanders would not do. A trade for another budding Islander defencemen could be possible.


Not to say the Isles would trade for a another goaltender but it may be more likly that the Islanders trade someone more like

Dustin Kohn for Schneider

Kohn is apperaing to be a cappable defencemen but in the sma mold as many of the D-men on the Island which could make him expendable. I think he would be a good Defencemen a a year or two.


Last edited by KrisBeKreame: 06-14-2010 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Grammer
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Old
06-14-2010, 09:26 AM
  #39
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Hamonic isn't going anywhere.

Bryzgalov couldn't find a buyer amongst 29 teams, which shows me that unproven goaltenders have far fewer value than many here believe.

Hamonic's name is popping up in trade proposals almost as much as Nielsen and Okposo these days, though. Nice to see the rest of the league is starting to covet this kid.

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06-14-2010, 09:43 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Thisisacodee View Post

Bryzgalov couldn't find a buyer amongst 29 teams, which shows me that unproven goaltenders have far fewer value than many here believe.
Especially when a team can trade for a much more proven Price or Halak.


Bottom line for the Isles, they need young dmen much more than goalies right now and are very high on Hamonic.

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Old
06-14-2010, 10:14 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoHo View Post
To VAN:
D Travis Hamonic

To NYI:
G Cory Schneider

Assuming that Schneider makes the big club as a back-up to Luongo next season and performs decently in the ~15 games that he plays, would this be a suitable deal?

According to the 2010 HockeyFutures draft preview for NYI, they lack solid goaltending prospects and Schneider could provide an immediate remedy for that.

Hamonic will give the Canucks a solid top-4 defensive defenseman (something that we sorely lack).

Can this be a building block for any sort of deal between the two teams?

You shouldn't really ever reference HF.com for information on prospects, much less trade proposals. Honestly, I've never seen a website that professes to be a source on something by name, but is so far from that in content.

The Islanders page on HF.com is so full of mistakes and misguided judgements that they need to simply start over. I heard HF.com wanted journalism majors writing for them over people who actually know the prospects, and the results support that theory fully. Having been on these boards for some time now, I can say with utter confidence that many posting here could do a much better job for their respective teams than the writers they currently have.

It's truly a shame because if done correctly HF.com would be one of my favorite sites. For now I'll count HFBoards.com on the list instead.


Last edited by periferal: 06-14-2010 at 10:24 AM.
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06-14-2010, 10:38 AM
  #42
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Goalies are a dime a dozen. Stud dmen are hard to find.

Simple math. Teams need only one goalie. They need at least 4 good dmen. There are plenty of good (or potentially good) goalies stuck on NHL benches and in the minors/juniors. They are routinely available. Just last year, Islanders picked up Roloson and Biron as cheap FAs. Two former all stars. Both played very well for them.

Schneider should be a very good goalie. Who's to say Koskinen, Nilsson, or Poulin won't also be good. Meanwhile, experts rave about Hamonic.

If Schneider is the real deal, VAN would be better off trading Luongo. He obviously has more trade value, and it would free up cap space to get the dman OP wants.

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06-14-2010, 11:15 AM
  #43
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snow would have to give a big fat no on this trade.

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06-14-2010, 11:27 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by periferal View Post

The Islanders page on HF.com is so full of mistakes and misguided judgements that they need to simply start over. I heard HF.com wanted journalism majors writing for them over people who actually know the prospects, and the results support that theory fully. Having been on these boards for some time now, I can say with utter confidence that many posting here could do a much better job for their respective teams than the writers they currently have.
Nice essay - except in this case, HF is correct, the Islanders do lack high end goalie prospects.

As far as the proposed trade goes, I personally think the value is about equal, but both organizations are pretty high on these prospects so both might want more in return.

Hamonic is a top tier defensive prospect, one of a number of good young defensemen the Islanders have in their system including: Jack Hillen, Andrew MacDonald and Calvin de Haan. It is the wealth of young defenders that probably has Hamonic continually mentioned in trades. But Hamonic has a couple of big steps to make before he is NHL ready. It's one thing to stand out in the WHL as a 19 year old, but it's another thing entirely to do that in the AHL let alone the NHL.

For Canucks fans, Hamonic is comparable to Yann Sauve - similar production, similar size, similar game. He probably has a little more offensive upside than Sauve, but not on the same level as say Kevin Connauton. But he is bigger and much more reliable in his own end than Connauton.

Schneider is also a far better goalie than many realize. Before last year, if you asked anyone who was a better, more NHL ready goalie between Cory Schneider and Jimmy Howard, most would have said Schneider because he had out played Howard in the AHL for 2 years straight. His .905 save percentage last year in the AHL is actually more impressive than his previous years .919 or .928 because with all the injuries and call ups, Manitoba's defense last year was crap. But Schneider's value will not be realized until he can demonstrate a body of work at the NHL level. 10 games over 2 years is not enough.

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06-14-2010, 11:29 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardo View Post
Goalies are a dime a dozen. Stud dmen are hard to find.

Simple math. Teams need only one goalie. They need at least 4 good dmen. There are plenty of good (or potentially good) goalies stuck on NHL benches and in the minors/juniors. They are routinely available. Just last year, Islanders picked up Roloson and Biron as cheap FAs. Two former all stars. Both played very well for them.

Schneider should be a very good goalie. Who's to say Koskinen, Nilsson, or Poulin won't also be good. Meanwhile, experts rave about Hamonic.

If Schneider is the real deal, VAN would be better off trading Luongo. He obviously has more trade value, and it would free up cap space to get the dman OP wants.
Done.

Luongo for Hamonic?


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06-14-2010, 01:07 PM
  #46
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Nice essay - except in this case, HF is correct, the Islanders do lack high end goalie prospects.
Well, it's hard to say. Still, the hf draft preview, which suggested that the Islanders were strong at center, where we are unquestionably weak, was pretty laughable.

Still, BJo is right - the success of goalies is so unpredictable, it's not a good move to spend one of your top assets (Hamonic) for a goaltender.

Second, while the Isles have depth of defensive prospects, Hamonic is their only legitimate physical defenseman prospect. de Haan, Donovan, Ness, etc. are all puck movers. Jack Hillen might not last another year the way he gets hit, and Andrew MacDonald will struggle against large forwards.

So, one doesn't have to bash anyone to show why this trade makes no sense from an Isles perspective.

Cheers,

Dan-o

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06-14-2010, 01:10 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by LeftCoast View Post
Nice essay - except in this case, HF is correct, the Islanders do lack high end goalie prospects.
Depends on who is doing the judging.

The Isles are pretty high on Poulin, Koskinen and Nilsson. I can't see the Isles trading one of their top prospects for a goalie prospect a year after drafting goalies with the 31 and 61 picks.

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06-14-2010, 02:21 PM
  #48
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Islanders get ripped off so badly in the OP's deal lol.

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06-14-2010, 02:25 PM
  #49
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Nice essay - except in this case, HF is correct, the Islanders do lack high end goalie prospects.

As far as the proposed trade goes, I personally think the value is about equal, but both organizations are pretty high on these prospects so both might want more in return.

Hamonic is a top tier defensive prospect, one of a number of good young defensemen the Islanders have in their system including: Jack Hillen, Andrew MacDonald and Calvin de Haan. It is the wealth of young defenders that probably has Hamonic continually mentioned in trades. But Hamonic has a couple of big steps to make before he is NHL ready. It's one thing to stand out in the WHL as a 19 year old, but it's another thing entirely to do that in the AHL let alone the NHL.

For Canucks fans, Hamonic is comparable to Yann Sauve - similar production, similar size, similar game. He probably has a little more offensive upside than Sauve, but not on the same level as say Kevin Connauton. But he is bigger and much more reliable in his own end than Connauton.

Schneider is also a far better goalie than many realize. Before last year, if you asked anyone who was a better, more NHL ready goalie between Cory Schneider and Jimmy Howard, most would have said Schneider because he had out played Howard in the AHL for 2 years straight. His .905 save percentage last year in the AHL is actually more impressive than his previous years .919 or .928 because with all the injuries and call ups, Manitoba's defense last year was crap. But Schneider's value will not be realized until he can demonstrate a body of work at the NHL level. 10 games over 2 years is not enough.
the truth is the Canucks need for a top end defensive prospect is much bigger than the Isles need for a goalie, and Sauve is not in Hamonics class as a prospect, not even close

as you like to refer to hockeys future:

"Originally expected to be a two-way defenseman with good size and skating, Sauve’s offensive game has not developed as fast as the rest of his skills. Sauve is a big, mean defender in his own zone who is physically strong and good positionally. However, he tends to get into trouble when he has the puck. His puck-handling skills could use some improvement and his decision making with the puck is generally poor. Right now he is on track to become a one-dimensional defensive d-man. The Canucks hope the other facets of his game can evolve over time."

whereas Chris Botta had this to say about Hamonic:

"Travis Hamonic has gone from good to very good to exceptional. The Islanders will probably stick him on the big club this season"


Last edited by Isles_Guy*: 06-14-2010 at 02:44 PM.
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06-14-2010, 03:05 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
IMO Corey Schneider has bust written all over him, I think he is one of the most over rated players in all of hockey, When he couldn't beat out Raycroft it sent up an alarm, and then when Luongo was hurt and Schneider came up I saw a scared rabbit in the nets (admitedly based on only 2 games I watched, but I was not impressed).... I'm sorry, you may like him but I wouldnt go near him if you paid me, I remember one game against the Sharks, i think it was and he was near tears after they pulled him
Cory Schneider.

It wasn't that he couldn't beat out Raycroft, it was that Raycroft's cap hit was half of what Schneider's is, and more seasoning on the farm is better than 10 games as Louie's backup (see: Jimmy Howard).

In Schneider's only start this year:
Quote:
DALLAS (AP)—The Dallas Stars peppered Vancouver rookie goalie Cory Schneider(notes) with a flurry of shots, and finally a couple found the back of the net.

Brad Richards(notes) scored midway through the second period to put Dallas in front, Brenden Morrow(notes) added a third-period power-play goal, and the Stars beat Vancouver 2-1 despite Schneider’s 45-save performance Friday night.

Schneider was outstanding in his first start and second appearance of the season. Andrew Raycroft(notes), who started four straight in place of the injured Roberto Luongo(notes) (ribs), got a break after a 5-2 victory Thursday night in Minnesota.

“They were the quicker and more effective team in the first two periods,” Canucks coach Alain Vigneault said. “We had one player fresh and that was our goaltender. He had a great outing and gave us a chance to stay in it.”

“It was one of those games where we didn’t have it for 40 minutes,” Vancouver’s Ryan Kesler(notes) said. “Cory played an unbelievable game and that last 20 minutes, we left everything on the ice.”
Schneider is ranked by hockeysfuture as the 32nd best prospect:

Quote:
Schneider has been considered one of the best goalies not in the NHL for several years now. Although his NHL results so far have not been up to par with his performances in the AHL with the Manitoba Moose, he still projects highly. The 23-year-old uses a near flawless butterfly style along with his solid size. Schneider’s main obstacle to the NHL is Vancouver starter Roberto Luongo, whose presence may force Schneider to eventually join another organization that is in search of a future starting goaltender.
They also have this to say about him:

Quote:
Schneider is a fundamentally sound goaltender with superb quickness and agility. He has demonstrated that he can step up in big games. Schneider plays with a tremendous amount of focus and confidence and exhibits his maturity on and off the ice. Schneider is excellent positionally. He does an outstanding job of taking away the lower portion of the net, moves extremely well laterally and with his 6’2 frame covers a lot of the top half of the net as well. He will aggressively challenge shooters and has a quick glove. The most notable improvement that Schneider made in his collegiate career is his ability to control rebounds. It isn’t often that he will give up rebounds and when he does, he does an excellent job of steering loose pucks away from the crease area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isles_Guy View Post
I didnt see that game obviously, but the two games I did see one last year and one 2 or maybe 3 years ago he looked terrible in both, one as I said they pulled him from the game and he looked like he was gonna cry when they showed him on the bench afterward, the color commentator made a big deal of it on versus
I saw Okposo play a game about 2-3 years ago, he looked awful. I thought he was going to be a bust and look at him now - he hasn't had a 20 goal season yet. He looks like a scared rabbit.

-- thats how ridiculous you sound. Stop posting.

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