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Off-Season Thread (Discussion of Kovy's rights goes here for now)

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06-14-2010, 05:38 PM
  #426
KINGS17
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
But the only way you get the CAP hit that low (more than likely) is with the term like Hossa has. Are you ok with that?



I agree but 2 things:

1) What a players get paid inflates every year with the salary cap. So what one player signed a contract for 2 years ago isn't necessarily a fair comparison. I do agree that there has to be some continuity though between players' salaries. But I think we are comparing apples and oranges and here is why...
2)We all know what Kopitar's position is on the team (#1 center) and he has kinda grown into that and will continue to do so. That being said, Kopitar signed his deal while on an ELC. Maybe I'm wrong here but haven't most of the players that have signed long term deals at a young age and forgone the "second contract" taken a bit less than what a similar players received on the open market because they are still a RFA?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that had Kopitar signed his new contract next summer, he'd probably be looking at upwards of $7m (maybe even closer to $8m) depending on what kind of numbers he puts up next season due to the inflation of the CAP and his value has gone up (and more than likely will continue to do so). If you are going to use Kopitar's contract as a benchmark, the problem then becomes how do they sign UFA's if they are always going to be outbid?
This is kind of my point. Detroit doesn't use the rest of the league as their benchmark. They use their internal salary structure with Lidstrom as the benchmark. UFAs can take it or leave it. We aren't Detroit yet by a longshot, but if you want the kind of depth it takes to win year in and year out, that has to be the mindset IMO. Maybe Doughty will be the new benchmark for the Kings.

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06-14-2010, 05:44 PM
  #427
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Marleau is more than slightly better than Frolov IMO. You put Marleau on the Kings in the high slot on the #1 PP unit with Kopitar on the half boards and Smyth parked in front, and I'm pretty sure Marleau will score 35 goals.
It isn't just about scoring goals.

I'm just curious...for those who are in the Marleau camp, is it more of a cap issue or do you really think that we'll be a better team with Marleau instead of Kovy?

We ARE talking about 1M-2M more for Kovy correct?

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06-14-2010, 05:47 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
This is kind of my point. Detroit doesn't use the rest of the league as their benchmark. They use their internal salary structure with Lidstrom as the benchmark. UFAs can take it or leave it. We aren't Detroit yet by a longshot, but if you want the kind of depth it takes to win year in and year out, that has to be the mindset IMO. Maybe Doughty will be the new benchmark for the Kings.
Ok and that is fair but I think at some point if you really want a player (and I don't necessarily think that is the case here - maybe with Marleau), you might have to go outside of that mold. Detroit has the luxury of players wanting to play there for the chance at winning but I also believe there is some nostalgia involved as well. The Kings will probably start to get more interest from UFA's in the coming years but Detroit has the past 20 seasons as leverage that the Kings don't.

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06-14-2010, 05:55 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
It isn't just about scoring goals.

I'm just curious...for those who are in the Marleau camp, is it more of a cap issue or do you really think that we'll be a better team with Marleau instead of Kovy?

We ARE talking about 1M-2M more for Kovy correct?
You are making a pretty bold assumption there (no pun intended - I bolded the text). We have no idea how much either of them will ultimately cost. I personally am not swayed one way or the other although that most certainly will and should be a factor. I do think Marleau gives us some flexibility. If they were to decide get rid of Stoll, he could play 2nd line center (his best years are at the wing though).

I think that there is a chance that Kovalchuk becomes way too expensive ($8m+) and a chance DL can get Marleau a bit of a discount. That is pure conjecture on my part. I just see Gaborik go get $7.5m for 5 years. How in the hell is Kovalchuk not going to get more than that? The only way is on a Hossa-esque deal. Marleau on the otherhand would probably want to stay in California and since he is older and has already earned a lot, is more likely to accept a more practical deal. Again, this all conjecture on my part and I have no basis for it.

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06-14-2010, 06:07 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Buddy The Elf View Post
You are making a pretty bold assumption there (no pun intended - I bolded the text). We have no idea how much either of them will ultimately cost. I personally am not swayed one way or the other although that most certainly will and should be a factor. I do think Marleau gives us some flexibility. If they were to decide get rid of Stoll, he could play 2nd line center (his best years are at the wing though).

I think that there is a chance that Kovalchuk becomes way too expensive ($8m+) and a chance DL can get Marleau a bit of a discount. That is pure conjecture on my part. I just see Gaborik go get $7.5m for 5 years. How in the hell is Kovalchuk not going to get more than that? The only way is on a Hossa-esque deal. Marleau on the otherhand would probably want to stay in California and since he is older and has already earned a lot, is more likely to accept a more practical deal. Again, this all conjecture on my part and I have no basis for it.
Which would you prefer? Marleau @ 6M or Kovy @ 8M?

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06-14-2010, 06:34 PM
  #431
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I could give Kovalchuk an 8 year deal at $8 mil. I'd prefer that over trading for Hossa - (1) money and no other assets for the acquisition, (2) younger, more offensive upside, (3) we'd have control of the deal structure and could downsize his cap hit to make him tradable in the last 2 or 3 years of the deal. Plus he's younger than Hossa or Marleau.

With regards to the idea of secondary scoring winning cups - that's not in question. However, this cliche is true because of the threat first line scoring presents and the focus it demands from an opponents D. That (and additional effort from all players) is what opens up for second line players. If your first line players are the equivalent of secondary players on Cup winning teams then it doesn't matter - you'll only go so far in the playoffs.

We've got to have a threat or two that opposing coaches and their D must focus on.

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06-14-2010, 06:42 PM
  #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
We going to get Kovalchuk for a cap hit under $6M? Sign me up.

Around $8M? No thanks.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, you're doin it all wrong!
Just think of it this way.

Its six million of cap space and 2 million of cap raise. If you were all for Kovy at 6MM before the cap raise was announced, throwing the extra 2MM the NHL just gave us is like throwing away a freebie. It doesnt taker away anything you previously had in your pocket.

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06-14-2010, 08:25 PM
  #433
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8M CAP hit for a 27 year old, in his prime, 40-50+ goal scoring, 90+ point machine, Franchise LWinger is NOT TOO MUCH MONEY.

WAKE UP PEOPLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

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06-14-2010, 08:28 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
I could give Kovalchuk an 8 year deal at $8 mil. I'd prefer that over trading for Hossa - (1) money and no other assets for the acquisition, (2) younger, more offensive upside, (3) we'd have control of the deal structure and could downsize his cap hit to make him tradable in the last 2 or 3 years of the deal. Plus he's younger than Hossa or Marleau.

With regards to the idea of secondary scoring winning cups - that's not in question. However, this cliche is true because of the threat first line scoring presents and the focus it demands from an opponents D. That (and additional effort from all players) is what opens up for second line players. If your first line players are the equivalent of secondary players on Cup winning teams then it doesn't matter - you'll only go so far in the playoffs.

We've got to have a threat or two that opposing coaches and their D must focus on.
You can get that with two additional 25-30 goal forwards for slightly more money than you will spend on Kovalchuk, if Kovalchuk gets his $8M+.

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06-14-2010, 08:29 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
Which would you prefer? Marleau @ 6M or Kovy @ 8M?
Ideally, I'll take Marleau AND Sharp at something like $9.5M

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06-14-2010, 08:32 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Kingz4life View Post
8M CAP hit for a 27 year old, in his prime, 40-50+ goal scoring, 90+ point machine, Franchise LWinger is NOT TOO MUCH MONEY.

WAKE UP PEOPLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
lol

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06-14-2010, 08:34 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Ideally, I'll take Marleau AND Sharp at something like $9.5M
So, you'd take Marleau & Sharp at 9.9M rather than Kovy & Sharp at 11.9M?

That's what you're saying correct?

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06-14-2010, 08:44 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
So, you'd take Marleau & Sharp at 9.9M rather than Kovy & Sharp at 11.9M?

That's what you're saying correct?
If we get Kovalchuk, we get nothing else. Bank on it.

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06-14-2010, 08:49 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
You can get that with two additional 25-30 goal forwards for slightly more money than you will spend on Kovalchuk, if Kovalchuk gets his $8M+.
NO FEAR....

not the same concern in an opponents eyes watching 20-30 goal scorers....

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06-14-2010, 08:54 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
If we get Kovalchuk, we get nothing else. Bank on it.
I love your misguided confidence. Well, luckily for me, my abacus tells me otherwise.

Again, Sharp & Marleau @ 9.9M or Sharp & Kovy @ 11.9M? Just amuse me, why don't you.

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06-14-2010, 10:03 PM
  #441
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love your misguided confidence. Well, luckily for me, my abacus tells me otherwise.

Again, Sharp & Marleau @ 9.9M or Sharp & Kovy @ 11.9M? Just amuse me, why don't you.
Sharp and Kovy. Marleau is just not the kind of game-breaker that Kovalchuk is.

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06-14-2010, 10:06 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by RH63 View Post
I love your misguided confidence. Well, luckily for me, my abacus tells me otherwise.

Again, Sharp & Marleau @ 9.9M or Sharp & Kovy @ 11.9M? Just amuse me, why don't you.
We would need to move salary for that. With a 2 mill cap increase, we don't quite have 11.9 to spend. We couldn't send salary back to the Hawks. It would defeat the purpose on their side to trade him at all.

Not that its hard to move somebody like Stoll or Williams for picks or prospects or low salaried depth players, but as it stands, we don't have 11.9 spend. Its much closer to 11 than it is to twelve.

And if the cap doesn't go up, we have a shade over 9 million in space.

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06-14-2010, 10:08 PM
  #443
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Marleau has broken the 40 goal mark ONE time in his career and that was this past season.
Kovalchuk has hit the 40 goal mark each season after his rookie season. He has broken 50 twice

Kovalchuk is younger, bigger, faster, meaner, is a game breaker, can take over games and is a threat to score every time his skates touch the ice.

Marleau to date has been on STACKED teams and has failed to lead them anywhere. He has been, at best, a valuable 2nd line center and, at worst, streaky and ineffective.

Kovalchuk has been on two teams. One was an Atlanta team that, but for really one season, he was the team and this season splitting time between a bad Atlanta team and a highly overrated New Jersey team. He has excelled in Atlanta. He led the Devils in points in the playoffs.

This isn't even a close call for me considering they may only be 1 to 1.5 M per year apart.

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06-14-2010, 10:11 PM
  #444
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I want Kovalchuk and Prospal.

if that doesn't work

I want Marleau and Buff

if tha doesn't work

I want to trade Williams and our 1st for Hossa

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06-14-2010, 10:14 PM
  #445
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Yeah... the only way I want Marleau is if Kovy demands well over 8 million on an 8+ year deal. Marleau is the consolation prize, one that you even shake your fist at a little... just a little, if Kovalchuk bolts for Russia or decides Jersey is the place to be or some **** like that.

Come to think of it... hey KINGS17... what do you think of this idea?

The latest news on Kovy has emphasized his wanting to play in the Olympics.

They stress a 3 year deal for this purpose.

What if they are misleading everyone? What if Kovalchuk wants a 3 year deal HERE, so he can wait out Bettman to fold or bolt right before the Sochi games? Of course the counter to that is Kovy would want to be involved more closely in training with the Russia team prior to the Olympics, but the more I think about it, the less far fetched I think it is that Kovy won't signed a short term deal in the NHL. Maybe he demands 9-10 million a year, but only for 2 or 3 years.

10 is probably a bit much... but you do you take Kovy at 8 or 9 on a short term deal?

Its funny that the prevailing logic never mentions this possibility. As if its lifetime, or at the least, long term (5+) contracts only.

Hmmm.....

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06-15-2010, 12:38 AM
  #446
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If Tallon offers Lombardi the #36 pick for Stoll, do you think he takes it?

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06-15-2010, 12:40 AM
  #447
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If Tallon offers Lombardi the #36 pick for Stoll, do you think he takes it?
Tough one. I'm not sure he does.

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06-15-2010, 12:42 AM
  #448
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Tough one. I'm not sure he does.
I'm not sure of the situation, I've been trying to follow along. Are the Kings looking to move Stoll do you think or is it something that some fans just want?

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06-15-2010, 12:46 AM
  #449
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I'm not sure of the situation, I've been trying to follow along. Are the Kings looking to move Stoll do you think or is it something that some fans just want?
Stoll is a very useful player, he's just a bit redundant while Handzus is on the roster. Then there's the issue of his arthritis.

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06-15-2010, 01:21 AM
  #450
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I think the Kings would have to take a high 2nd round pick for Stoll, the value is just too good to pass up, and it frees up some much needed cap space.

I am ok with Kopitar, Handzus, Schenn as our pivots next season.

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