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06-15-2010, 10:24 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I'd rather deal JVR for Price, but I agree with Jester that it's not an unreasonable request.

In regards to Price, I think it's just a lazy assumption that he is inconsistent because he can't handle the pressure in Montreal. He's 22. What 22 year old goalie consistently performs at a high level? Heck Ryan Miller wasn't even in the league at that age. He's also way better than Fleury at the same age.




Well I don't think they would target Giroux because he is small.
I'll also agree that it's not an unreasonable request. Price still has potential and maybe he just needs to get out of Montreal to figure it all out.

In regards to Fleury, he had the mental make up of a grapefruit after the WJC's and that's why he was crap for a while.

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06-15-2010, 10:25 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I love that Halak playing so well has turned into a critique of Price. Best hockey meme of the year as far as I'm concerned, since the same story has occurred with Tim Thomas and Rask.
Exactly, Halak plays well so somehow that makes Price poor?

As far as I am concerned Halak's breakout is an encouraging sign for Price. Price from 20-22 is better than Halak was at the same age, so if Halak can have a breakout season at 24 then I don't see why Price can't.

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06-15-2010, 10:26 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I get the feeling that these leaks come from inside the Flyers organization. If you want to kill the goalie trade talk, float a rumour that Montreal wants Giroux. That is a hell of a jump from the 2nd rounder they wanted for Halak in January. Homer wouldn't even think about this. The goalie situation will NOT be solved via trade, it will be solved via free agency or they will bring back Backlund, Leighton and Boucher and see if Bobby makes the jump. That is still a possibility I am comfortable with.

I think:
1. Turco. If he takes a discounted price, he is a Flyer.
2. Ellis. If Turco doesn't sign, then Ellis is likely a Flyer. If that happens, I think you have to bring back Leighton and trade Boucher. Ellis is unproven, so now you have a 1A and 1B and let them determine who is a legit #1 in this league.
3. Sign Leighton as #1 and see what happens with Backlund and Bobby.

I don't think Homer will move a player to get a goalie when he can get one for free or keep what he already has. THEY ARE NOT TRADING GIROUX OR JVR!!!! They BETTER NOT!!!
Signing Leighton as our starter and/or creating a battle for the starter position might literally be the worst things that Homer can do for us this summer.

As for the proposal, I have to agree with Jester. From a Montreal perspective it's not a crazy thing to ask. They're starting with a high asking price and would probably be willing to meet some middle ground (if the rumour is true, which it probably isn't).

Price gets way, way too much flak from pretty much everyone. He's a good goalie as is with huge potential at a really young age (especially for a goalie).

Not his fault that they went with the hot hand this year. From actually following the Canadians this year (which is more then a lot of you can say probably), Price didn't play badly for them. Halak was winning and Price wasn't for whatever reasons so they went with Halak.

However, there's no way you do this deal from a Philadelphia perspective.

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06-15-2010, 10:26 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Giroux hit the wall too, dude. He wasn't very good the 2nd half of the season.

Playoffs are hockey... no different from the regular season. I mean, Fernando Pisani is ****ing awesome and all, but really?

Giroux is going to be a good player, but if you're going to joke about "Jesus Price" you need to reflect on the deification of an undersized player that has yet to score 50 pts in the NHL.
He wasn't very good because Laviolette had him all over the lineup. If he wasn't playing center, he was playing with just about everyone else. It was only once Laviolette left him at center that Giroux settled down and in.

In terms of deifying Giroux, he's in the exact same boat that Richards was in when Richards started his career in Philadelphia. Giroux hasn't played two full seasons yet and he's already ahead of Richards and Carter first two full seasons in terms of point production. He'll make the jump to point per game player in 2010-2011. I'm also going on record to say that Giroux has more natural talent than either Richards or Carter and it wouldn't surprise me if he surpasses them next season as well and becomes the go to guy in Philadelphia.

Giroux might not be big, but neither was Joe Sakic or Adam Oates for that matter and Giroux compares very favourably to both those guys.

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06-15-2010, 10:27 AM
  #55
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It's an incredibly fair trade. But I wouldn't want to do it, personally. I do think there are options, other than Price, which don't require giving up Giroux.

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06-15-2010, 10:28 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
What?! In 1993-94 he was 22, won rookie of the year and was within 1 win of the SCF's.

In 94-95 he was all of 23 when he lead an underdog NJ Devils to their first Stanley Cup.

ROtY and Cup at 23, Price hasn't come close to that kind of success.
You're mistaking team success for what I think is a great season for a goalie as an individual is.

Brodeur:
21 - 27-11-8 .915 2.40
22 - 19-11-6 .902 2.45
23 - 34-30-12 .911 2.34
24 - 37-14-13 .927 1.88

At age 20, Price posted 24-12-3 .920 2.56... had a mediocre age 21, and was solid but not great this year. Hey, sort of exactly like what young Brodeur did in his first three seasons. Price just didn't have a stellar team in front of him the way Brodeur did.

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06-15-2010, 10:29 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Price was the Habs starting goalie last year... please don't go down the Shafer path of the thinking depth forwards are more important to the team than the starting goalie. Price didn't play great last year (was fantastic the year before that), but please don't go down that path.

If each player achieves their potential, Price is IMMENSELY more valuable than Giroux.

That being said, you don't cut such a deal if you think Bob has any shot of being a successful starter, etc. or if maybe Schneider can be had for less. However, Montreal looking for Giroux in return is FAR from "crazy."
The year he was fantastic, Huet was their starter for the most part and had similar stats. ****ing Huet. Goes to show the team was helping the goalies out more then the goalies playing.

Like others said, right now, Giroux has more value anyway you look at it. He has been the better player without a doubt. I am very skeptical about Price and most of his hype is from draft position. I know he is young, Im tired of that arguement, but unless he does something different, right now he could be at his best. The chances he turns into a franchise goalie is very slim. Very few goalies turn into one.

Its easier for a forward to achieve their potential then a goalie can. Like you said, you dont make this deal when you have Brovosky and Eriksson waiting in the wings.

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06-15-2010, 10:30 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're mistaking team success for what I think is a great season for a goalie as an individual is.

Brodeur:
21 - 27-11-8 .915 2.40
22 - 19-11-6 .902 2.45
23 - 34-30-12 .911 2.34
24 - 37-14-13 .927 1.88

At age 20, Price posted 24-12-3 .920 2.56... had a mediocre age 21, and was solid but not great this year. Hey, sort of exactly like what young Brodeur did in his first three seasons. Price just didn't have a stellar team in front of him the way Brodeur did.
They were a low seed in 95, they had a decent team, but the Wings team was better on paper. Brodeur was unreal in the finals.

Like I said, Price can turn it around, maybe getting out of Montreal is what is best for him. He did do some really, really stupid **** there.

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06-15-2010, 10:37 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
He wasn't very good because Laviolette had him all over the lineup. If he wasn't playing center, he was playing with just about everyone else. It was only once Laviolette left him at center that Giroux settled down and in.

In terms of deifying Giroux, he's in the exact same boat that Richards was in when Richards started his career in Philadelphia. Giroux hasn't played two full seasons yet and he's already ahead of Richards and Carter first two full seasons in terms of point production. He'll make the jump to point per game player in 2010-2011. I'm also going on record to say that Giroux has more natural talent than either Richards or Carter and it wouldn't surprise me if he surpasses them next season as well and becomes the go to guy in Philadelphia.

Giroux might not be big, but neither was Joe Sakic or Adam Oates for that matter and Giroux compares very favourably to both those guys.
When Carter and Richards came in they were playing on a team with far less depth than what Giroux has gotten to play with. He got significant time last year playing with Briere when he came in, and this year he got time on one of the best PP units in the league (21 pts).

Giroux also cannot be a center above Richards and Carter, cuz he's not nearly as good as either of 'em defensively. He certainly has more natural talent than Richards (but that's true for about 75% of the league). He's a better passer and shiftier than Carter, but his shot isn't very good and he's never going to score goals in the quantity of Carter. He needs to move back to the wing and be playing with those guys, frankly.

Joe Sakic was listed 20 lbs heavier than Giroux, and I think that's being generous to Giroux. That's before getting into their relative games... where Sakic had a shot that separated him from other players. Oates had at least 10 lbs on him.

I think Giroux is going to be a very good player in the NHL, but I also think folks have gotten way ahead of themselves with him. I don't see a player that is ever going to pop a large quantity of goals. Some of that is that he looks to pass so much, but he also just doesn't have a great shot for this level. He'll put up good assist totals, however.

In short, I see a Scott Gomez type of player.

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06-15-2010, 10:38 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post

In short, I see a Scott Gomez type of player.
So what you're saying is..........he's going to sign with the Penguins for 7M a season.

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06-15-2010, 10:38 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
They were a low seed in 95, they had a decent team, but the Wings team was better on paper. Brodeur was unreal in the finals.

Like I said, Price can turn it around, maybe getting out of Montreal is what is best for him. He did do some really, really stupid **** there.
...which in no way speaks to the point I was making. Playoff success is small sample stuff... you get hot at the right time, you look fantastic and everyone remembers you as such (note your post)... if you're cold at the time you're a goat and everyone remembers you as such.

Brodeur didn't have his first great season until he was 24.

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06-15-2010, 10:40 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
So what you're saying is..........he's going to sign with the Penguins for 7M a season.
Which the team will almost immediately regret doing... yes. I like Giroux a lot, but I think you're going to want him complementing a group, rather than leading the charge.

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06-15-2010, 10:40 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
I'll also agree that it's not an unreasonable request. Price still has potential and maybe he just needs to get out of Montreal to figure it all out.

In regards to Fleury, he had the mental make up of a grapefruit after the WJC's and that's why he was crap for a while.
True about Fleury, but I definitely think Price will be better than him in the long term as well.

I'm too lazy to do it over again, but months ago I posted stats comparing Price to the top goalies in the league today and his first three years compares favorably to every one of them and is better than some of them. The simple fact is most goalies aren't even in the NHL at 22 and Price just finished his 3rd season.

Habs fans use to overrate him with the Jesus Price stuff, but I think he has quickly become vastly underrated because he isn't a top 5 goalie at the ripe age of 22.

The reality is what he has done so far at his extremely young age is extremely encouraging for his future. I believe he will be a great goalie in this league and I believe his breakout will probably happen in the next couple of years.

If the Flyers have the opportunity to get a young and upcoming goalie like him then I believe they'd be absolutely insane to pass it up. I think this may be their only chance to get a top flight goalie.

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06-15-2010, 10:42 AM
  #64
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Ok, I'm not saying that we SHOULD trade Giroux or JVR for a goalie like Price or anything but the way some of you guys are running him dowm CLEARLY shows that you really haven't watched him play very much and it's obvious that you haven't watched him CLOSELY. He IS the best goalie in Montreal but for some ungodly reason the Habs play a much better TEAM defense in front of Halak than they do for Price. When Price is in net the forwards are much more lazy and don't backcheck as much. They defense wanders much more and get caught in the corners out of position a lot more than they do for Halak. Price also faces MANY more odd-man rushes than Halak does per game.


The Habs goalies were the only reason they even made the playoffs this season as the rest of the team was below average for most of the season. There were stretches where Halak was the better of the 2 and there were stretches where Price was the better of the 2. If you had to pick one of Price and Halak based purely upon what they can and DO do, you should choose Price, he's just better now and also has the "potential" to be great whereas Halak's top end potential is probably just to be very good. From a Habs POV, with how their team plays better defense in front of Halak and the fact that he proved he can carry the team in the playoffs, they can get more for Price thus improving their skaters more and still be damned good in net.

If we could have just "borrowed" Price for the playoffs, that is we have him in net and STILL have Giroux, we would have beaten the Hawks in 5. We ALSO would have won the cup if we swapped Giroux for Price AND we had a healthy Jeff Carter. With a healthy Jeff Carter, the dire need for Giroux to step up and carry us for portions of the playoffs becomes even less.

Giroux + crippled Carter + Leighton may have been more important to us this year than say no Giroux + crippled Carter + Price but a HEALTHY Carter + Price >> Giroux + crippled Carter + Leighton. The real question for Philly become whether we are a better team with Giroux + UFA goalie - Hartnell (neccessary to created the needed cap space) or are they better with Price + Hartnell - Giroux. That's a tough call for me but honestly, the original idea of Price for Giroux is not totally out of whack valuewise. It doesn't mean we should do it, just that it's probably close to fair and something worth thinking about.

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06-15-2010, 10:42 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
The year he was fantastic, Huet was their starter for the most part and had similar stats. ****ing Huet. Goes to show the team was helping the goalies out more then the goalies playing.

Like others said, right now, Giroux has more value anyway you look at it. He has been the better player without a doubt. I am very skeptical about Price and most of his hype is from draft position. I know he is young, Im tired of that arguement, but unless he does something different, right now he could be at his best. The chances he turns into a franchise goalie is very slim. Very few goalies turn into one.

Its easier for a forward to achieve their potential then a goalie can. Like you said, you dont make this deal when you have Brovosky and Eriksson waiting in the wings.
So why did Huet go to the Caps and put up even better numbers?

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06-15-2010, 10:42 AM
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Which the team will almost immediately regret doing... yes. I like Giroux a lot, but I think you're going to want him complementing a group, rather than leading the charge.
Then we are in complete agreement. Giroux is definitely a complimentary player. A damn good one, 20-40 is a reasonable projection for him.

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06-15-2010, 10:45 AM
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Then we are in complete agreement. Giroux is definitely a complimentary player. A damn good one, 20-40 is a reasonable projection for him.
...and do you shed tears over trading a complimentary forward for a potential franchise goalie? I don't think so. Sure, the trade could backfire and not work out... and I'm not sure you do it at this point with the signing of Bob and everything else, but the value isn't far off if at all.

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06-15-2010, 10:49 AM
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So why did Huet go to the Caps and put up even better numbers?
The Capitals were VERY hot before they got Huet. Him going to the team made them even hotter.

When we played the Habs in playoffs, we were very lucky to win. Umberger played ON FIRE and tore Price a new one, while Biron became a possessed man and stopped some shots that would ussually go in. The Habs had a very good team that year.

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06-15-2010, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...and do you shed tears over trading a complimentary forward for a potential franchise goalie? I don't think so. Sure, the trade could backfire and not work out... and I'm not sure you do it at this point with the signing of Bob and everything else, but the value isn't far off if at all.
Ahh but see Jester, how is Price an automatically "franchise goalie" while Giroux is just going to be a complimentary forward. Where does it show this at? How come Price has a higher sealing then Giroux when Giroux has shown more then Price has at the same age?

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06-15-2010, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
The Capitals were VERY hot before they got Huet. Him going to the team made them even hotter.
...which really doesn't speak to the fact that Huet posted better stats in Washington than he did in Montreal if the Habs were protecting their goalie so well.

Quote:
When we played the Habs in playoffs, we were very lucky to win. Umberger played ON FIRE and tore Price a new one, while Biron became a possessed man and stopped some shots that would ussually go in. The Habs had a very good team that year.
I'm well aware, one of the reasons I find the memory of Biron in some particularly unbelievable. Price also had a bum glove hand in that series... which doesn't seem to get mentioned much.

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06-15-2010, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which the team will almost immediately regret doing... yes. I like Giroux a lot, but I think you're going to want him complementing a group, rather than leading the charge.
For as badly as some people have been underrating Price, I think you are selling Claude short. It all comes down to opinion, to a degree, though.

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06-15-2010, 10:54 AM
  #72
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Ahh but see Jester, how is Price an automatically "franchise goalie" while Giroux is just going to be a complimentary forward.
I seem to see the important qualifier of "potential" in front of "franchise goalie." And, no, I do not think Giroux is a "potential" franchise forward.

Quote:
Where does it show this at? How come Price has a higher sealing then Giroux when Giroux has shown more then Price has at the same age?
Shown what, that he does some ooh-and-ahh plays and puts up 47 pts? He's got a lot of skill, and a lot of flash... but people are mistaking that for substance.

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06-15-2010, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Shown what, that he does some ooh-and-ahh plays and puts up 47 pts? He's got a lot of skill, and a lot of flash... but people are mistaking that for substance.
I tend to agree with you most of the time, but I don't think you can discount the postseason Giroux just had.

End of regular season, I'd deal him, now, I want to wait a little longer. I don't think the goal production will keep up like that (he was shooting at like 25%), but there's flashes there of a poor man's Kane, maybe a 70-75 point guy.

Best path is to sign Turco. I don't blame the Habs for wanting Giroux for Price, it's what they should want, but it makes more sense for us to trawl the FA market.

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06-15-2010, 10:59 AM
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I hate how the JVR and Giroux threads have both turned into Price discussions. I am beginning to hate Carey Price because of Montreal fans.

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06-15-2010, 11:02 AM
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What has Giroux proven? He can have a hot playoff run?

His offensive output this year was very average.
Come on now Jester. I have read your posts, you don't seem the type to be questioning Giroux? I can understand if you want Price, I can't understand if you want to trade Giroux? That guy has proven at every level that he plays his best when it matters most. He had a very good second year in the league. This is a kid who has been playing up and down the lineup, Center and wing and still is one of our best players most nights. He is the last guy on this team I want to see leave....

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