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Habs want Giroux for Price

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Old
06-15-2010, 12:10 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
For as badly as some people have been underrating Price, I think you are selling Claude short. It all comes down to opinion, to a degree, though.
By directly comparing him to a guy with three 70 point seasons, and an 84 point season? If you think that's selling him short, then I think you're overrating him considerably.

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06-15-2010, 12:11 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Shown what, that he does some ooh-and-ahh plays and puts up 47 pts? He's got a lot of skill, and a lot of flash... but people are mistaking that for substance.
A 50 point first full season is nothing to sneeze at. If this was his sophmore slump I'm excited to see what he can put together next season.

I mostly agree with you as far as your comments in this thread (particularly regarding the deification of Giroux and the severe underrating of Price), but I think you're selling Giroux short here. He has shown himself to be a very capable penalty killer and a play-off performer. He also possesses strength on the puck befitting a larger player, and doesn't shy away from physical play. The makings of a star winger are right there IMO. I just wonder how much he can do to get some more snap in that wrist shot at this point in his career. If he could develop a respectable shot, he'd be a pretty bad mamma jamma.

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06-15-2010, 12:17 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I tend to agree with you most of the time, but I don't think you can discount the postseason Giroux just had.

End of regular season, I'd deal him, now, I want to wait a little longer. I don't think the goal production will keep up like that (he was shooting at like 25%), but there's flashes there of a poor man's Kane, maybe a 70-75 point guy.

Best path is to sign Turco. I don't blame the Habs for wanting Giroux for Price, it's what they should want, but it makes more sense for us to trawl the FA market.
Giroux's biggest problem, and largest limiting factor is that his shot is terrible. Kane's a guy that is going to post 30+ goals with some regularity in his career, I think. I really can't see Giroux doing that as of now. Thus why I really think the Gomez comparison is a good one... both are smallish, shifty guys with very good passing skills and, similar to Gomez, I just don't see big goal totals in Giroux's future.

I'm content with the Turco path, or whatever, but it's not ridiculous for Montreal to look for Giroux... and it's not some terrible value trade if we were to make the deal, IMO. As said, if both players achieve their potential I think we'd win a player-for-player swap without question.

As you, and likely everyone that's been around here knows, playoff production is largely meaningless to me in the big picture. Players almost universally revert to mean over larger samples of playoff play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Come on now Jester. I have read your posts, you don't seem the type to be questioning Giroux? I can understand if you want Price, I can't understand if you want to trade Giroux? That guy has proven at every level that he plays his best when it matters most. He had a very good second year in the league. This is a kid who has been playing up and down the lineup, Center and wing and still is one of our best players most nights. He is the last guy on this team I want to see leave....
Who said he didn't have a nice 2nd year? But if you're going to smack Price for not being an All-Star every year while pimping a 47 pt forward.... there's a disconnect there.

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06-15-2010, 12:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
A 50 point first full season is nothing to sneeze at. If this was his sophmore slump I'm excited to see what he can put together next season.

I mostly agree with you as far as your comments in this thread (particularly regarding the deification of Giroux and the severe underrating of Price), but I think you're selling Giroux short here. He has shown himself to be a very capable penalty killer and a play-off performer. He also possesses strength on the puck befitting a larger player, and doesn't shy away from physical play. The makings of a star winger are right there IMO. I just wonder how much he can do to get some more snap in that wrist shot at this point in his career. If he could develop a respectable shot, he'd be a pretty bad mamma jamma.
The issue with the shot is double-edged. A key factor there is that similar to Forsberg (who also didn't have a great shot), Giroux plays with a very small stick and thus doesn't get a ton of leverage on his shot. It makes him very tough to check in tight space, and great for making moves around people, but hurts him in the shooting department.

50 pts isn't anything to sneeze at, but neither is it crazy production.

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06-15-2010, 12:21 PM
  #80
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Hey Philly's Fans. Habs fan here. Bad for you you didn't bring the cup. Maybe next year. For Price, I'll take Giroux anytime. Price will be a top goalie in the league, but now, he stuck behind Halak who plays like god all season long. But it's not a lack of talent...the kid will be great in time.......

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06-15-2010, 12:21 PM
  #81
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The other thing that people are not talking about is the necessity to keep Claude Giroux. We need guys like Giroux and Leino at .8 million to be filling spots in our top 9. I see a problem next year when this guys are getting raises and we won't have anyone who can play a top 6 type of game for cheap. Only at that point would I consider trading one of our RFA's to bring in young talent at cheap prices. You can't have 8 players in your top 9 making 3+ million per year. Groux, JVR and Leino are the only cheap talented players we have.

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06-15-2010, 12:24 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by habsfan3131 View Post
Hey Philly's Fans. Habs fan here. Bad for you you didn't bring the cup. Maybe next year. For Price, I'll take Giroux anytime. Price will be a top goalie in the league, but now, he stuck behind Halak who plays like god all season long. But it's not a lack of talent...the kid will be great in time.......
Which is entertaining since so many Habs fans wanted no part of Giroux for Price a few months back.

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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
The other thing that people are not talking about is the necessity to keep Claude Giroux. We need guys like Giroux and Leino at .8 million to be filling spots in our top 9. I see a problem next year when this guys are getting raises and we won't have anyone who can play a top 6 type of game for cheap. Only at that point would I consider trading one of our RFA's to bring in young talent at cheap prices. You can't have 8 players in your top 9 making 3+ million per year. Groux, JVR and Leino are the only cheap talented players we have.
Well, you only get one more year of "cheap" Giroux, and if you're going to think about trading one of these guys then... why not think about it now if you can improve your team long term? Price, theoretically, won't be available in a year... if he's someone you'd consider trading Giroux for, why not consider it now?

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06-15-2010, 12:25 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Giroux's biggest problem, and largest limiting factor is that his shot is terrible. Kane's a guy that is going to post 30+ goals with some regularity in his career, I think. I really can't see Giroux doing that as of now. Thus why I really think the Gomez comparison is a good one... both are smallish, shifty guys with very good passing skills and, similar to Gomez, I just don't see big goal totals in Giroux's future.

I'm content with the Turco path, or whatever, but it's not ridiculous for Montreal to look for Giroux... and it's not some terrible value trade if we were to make the deal, IMO. As said, if both players achieve their potential I think we'd win a player-for-player swap without question.

As you, and likely everyone that's been around here knows, playoff production is largely meaningless to me in the big picture. Players almost universally revert to mean over larger samples of playoff play.



Who said he didn't have a nice 2nd year? But if you're going to smack Price for not being an All-Star every year while pimping a 47 pt forward.... there's a disconnect there.
Jester - I have no problem with Price. In fact, I am in favour of Price at the right "Price". I am just surprised with your negative tone on Giroux. If I was rating guys on this team whom I wouldn't trade they would be in order:

1. Richards
2. Giroux
3. Pronger

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06-15-2010, 12:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Jester - I have no problem with Price. In fact, I am in favour of Price at the right "Price". I am just surprised with your negative tone on Giroux. If I was rating guys on this team whom I wouldn't trade they would be in order:

1. Richards
2. Giroux
3. Pronger
...I've DIRECTLY compared him to Scott Gomez, and you think that's a "negative" tone? That's a comparison to a guy that has a realistic shot at 1,000 pts in the NHL. However, similar to Gomez, I think Giroux is going to be a better player for your team if he's in more of a complimentary role than actually being your front line offensive player.

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06-15-2010, 12:30 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Which is entertaining since so many Habs fans wanted no part of Giroux for Price a few months back.



Well, you only get one more year of "cheap" Giroux, and if you're going to think about trading one of these guys then... why not think about it now if you can improve your team long term? Price, theoretically, won't be available in a year... if he's someone you'd consider trading Giroux for, why not consider it now?
I just think you have a hard time filling a lineup similar to the one we just iced with PRice in net at likely 3 million and Giroux no longer on the team .8 million. For the skillset, you would need to pay someone about 3-4 million to replace Giroux. Or, you are saying we lose Giroux and we are less offensive next year (replace with Carcillo for instance). I was thinking Giroux is VERY LIKELY to score 70+ points next year. I like him playing on a line with Carter and JVR. Giroux can play wing and so can Carter. If they got some chemistry, Carter could score 50 next year with Giroux feeding the beast.

As for next year, I would not consider trading Giroux at that point either. I would consider trading one of our top players when we might have to, but not Giroux or Richards. I think that decision will depend on the demands of Carter (6 million per), Giroux and Gagne. If someone wants too much, you trade them or let them walk. If they are looking for a number that works, you sign them all.

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06-15-2010, 12:30 PM
  #86
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I dont blame them for asking for Giroux.
That said I dont think its going to happen. Giroux is a big game player. You can never have enough of those.
Didnt they have interest in Hartnell? They need size and grit at the forward position. Probably would have to takle on salary. Dont know what Montreal's salary position is.

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06-15-2010, 12:32 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
I just think you have a hard time filling a lineup similar to the one we just iced with PRice in net at likely 3 million and Giroux no longer on the team .8 million. For the skillset, you would need to pay someone about 3-4 million to replace Giroux. Or, you are saying we lose Giroux and we are less offensive next year (replace with Carcillo for instance). I was thinking Giroux is VERY LIKELY to score 70+ points next year. I like him playing on a line with Carter and JVR. Giroux can play wing and so can Carter. If they got some chemistry, Carter could score 50 next year with Giroux feeding the beast.

As for next year, I would not consider trading Giroux at that point either. I would consider trading one of our top players when we might have to, but not Giroux or Richards. I think that decision will depend on the demands of Carter (6 million per), Giroux and Gagne. If someone wants too much, you trade them or let them walk. If they are looking for a number that works, you sign them all.
Ah, yeah... because we went DIRT CHEAP on goal this year, and it ended up costing us big time. At some point here we need to start allocating some cap space for the goal position if we're going to have anyone good.

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06-15-2010, 12:36 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...I've DIRECTLY compared him to Scott Gomez, and you think that's a "negative" tone? That's a comparison to a guy that has a realistic shot at 1,000 pts in the NHL. However, similar to Gomez, I think Giroux is going to be a better player for your team if he's in more of a complimentary role than actually being your front line offensive player.
Not sure about everyone else, but from reading your comments - I was hearing negative towards Giroux. If that is not the case, then we are in agreement. I am 100% positive on Giroux. I like Carey Price in Philly, I don't want to trade Giroux to get him. Montreal Sports Radio keeps talking Carter for Price +. I don't want that either.....I think we are better off hoping Bob or Ericsson are as good as we think and signing someone to be our #1 this year (Turco/Ellis/Mason). If we can get Price at a resonable cost, then I am all for it. I think Montreal will be selling him as a future francise goalie and will require a significant return, I don't want to do that. Nothing against Price, but not JVR/Giroux/Carter for him.

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06-15-2010, 12:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Ah, yeah... because we went DIRT CHEAP on goal this year, and it ended up costing us big time. At some point here we need to start allocating some cap space for the goal position if we're going to have anyone good.
We did make the Stanley Cup Final. Also, if we stayed healthy with Emery, I think we would have won the Stanley Cup.

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06-15-2010, 12:38 PM
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Jester the main hole I see in your Giroux v Gomez argument is playoff production. Gomez has never had 15 points in a playoff year, despite playing 19+ games in 4 different postseasons. Giroux just put up 21 for us. He also scored 10 goals, Gomez has never topped 5. So while his regular seasons have lacked consistency, Giroux has been very good for us in the playoffs. I agree that Giroux can't be our best player but I think your short changing what he meant to this team during the playoffs.

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06-15-2010, 12:39 PM
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Wow, Habs people are really taking retardation to a whole new level.

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06-15-2010, 12:40 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
We did make the Stanley Cup Final. Also, if we stayed healthy with Emery, I think we would have won the Stanley Cup.
If we stay healthy with Emery we're almost certainly not the no. 7, and who knows what happens from there. Making the Stanley Cup Final is not indicative of you having a working formula for the future... been plenty of teams that get there and don't accomplish anything after that. The playoffs are a sequence of small samples matchups that are not necessarily indicative of future success. We avoided all the teams in the East that we didn't match up well with, for example.

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06-15-2010, 12:41 PM
  #93
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Pass, I don't want Price. He hasn't shown me anything. I'd rather sign an older, more established goalie for 1 or 2 years and see how our young goalies in the system turn out.

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06-15-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Giroux's biggest problem, and largest limiting factor is that his shot is terrible. Kane's a guy that is going to post 30+ goals with some regularity in his career, I think. I really can't see Giroux doing that as of now. Thus why I really think the Gomez comparison is a good one... both are smallish, shifty guys with very good passing skills and, similar to Gomez, I just don't see big goal totals in Giroux's future.

I'm content with the Turco path, or whatever, but it's not ridiculous for Montreal to look for Giroux... and it's not some terrible value trade if we were to make the deal, IMO. As said, if both players achieve their potential I think we'd win a player-for-player swap without question.

As you, and likely everyone that's been around here knows, playoff production is largely meaningless to me in the big picture. Players almost universally revert to mean over larger samples of playoff play.
The Gomez comparison isn't bad although I don't think Giroux's future is at C, but certainly from a style/production point of view I think it's realistic.

Giroux is an odd one though, I think he can be an outstanding 2-way winger in this league, but he isn't going to have the goalscoring to be a 25+ guy.

So you're talking an 18 goal, 50 assist winger who has a very good 2-way game and can kill penalties, I'm blanking on comparisons for that.

I think Giroux will be the type of guy where if he's your 4th best forward, you're in a very good position at F, if he's your 3rd best forward, you're in a good position, and if he's your 1st or 2nd best, you might have a problem.

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06-15-2010, 12:43 PM
  #95
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Pass, I don't want Price. He hasn't shown me anything. I'd rather sign an older, more established goalie for 1 or 2 years and see how our young goalies in the system turn out.
Not sure I buy this logic, if Price comes here and turns into a legit stud goaltender we're in good shape. If we have Bob and Ericsson behind him who pan out thats what you call a good problem. Signing Turco for 2 years and having them not pan out is a bad problem, kind of like right now where we have what appears to be a stanley cup roster with a gaping hole in the blue paint.

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06-15-2010, 12:44 PM
  #96
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Jester the main hole I see in your Giroux v Gomez argument is playoff production. Gomez has never had 15 points in a playoff year, despite playing 19+ games in 4 different postseasons. Giroux just put up 21 for us. He also scored 10 goals, Gomez has never topped 5. So while his regular seasons have lacked consistency, Giroux has been very good for us in the playoffs. I agree that Giroux can't be our best player but I think your short changing what he meant to this team during the playoffs.
Scott Gomez career PPG 0.81. Career playoff PPG 0.71. Career GPG 0.20. Career playoff GPG 0.22. Players tend to produce right at the level they produce during the regular season over expanded samples. Gomez's production goes down slightly (less assists), but his goal production actually goes up during the playoffs over his career (very slightly).

Giroux had a hot run... lets see if he can replicated that over the course of 82 games.

As said, an individual playoff run is pretty much meaningless to me. I did not think Fernando Pisani was the next goal scoring star in this league... I do not think Claude Giroux is going to pop 40 goals next year.

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06-15-2010, 12:49 PM
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I don't think the Gomez and Giroux comparisons are far off, but I think Giroux is and will be better then Gomez in most departments, including goal-scoring. I don't expect Giroux to hit 30 goals or even 25, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a consistent 20+ goal guy.

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06-15-2010, 12:53 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I don't think the Gomez and Giroux comparisons are far off, but I think Giroux is and will be better then Gomez in most departments, including goal-scoring. I don't expect Giroux to hit 30 goals or even 25, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a consistent 20+ goal guy.
I agree with that, I also think Giroux has a bit higher "compete" level than Gomez defensively. To this point, I think Gomez is a bit better playmaker than Giroux, however.

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06-15-2010, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Scott Gomez career PPG 0.81. Career playoff PPG 0.71. Career GPG 0.20. Career playoff GPG 0.22. Players tend to produce right at the level they produce during the regular season over expanded samples. Gomez's production goes down slightly (less assists), but his goal production actually goes up during the playoffs over his career (very slightly).

Giroux had a hot run... lets see if he can replicated that over the course of 82 games.

As said, an individual playoff run is pretty much meaningless to me. I did not think Fernando Pisani was the next goal scoring star in this league... I do not think Claude Giroux is going to pop 40 goals next year.
This isn't Giroux's first hot streak in pressure circumstances:

Giroux:
- Single handedly took Gatineau to the QMJHL league title with 51 points in 19 games winning the Guy Lafleur trophy for playoff MVP.
- Was Canadas best player at the World Junior Championships (or close to it)
- 26 points in 29 career playoff games in the NHL at age 22.

That is nothing short of amazing. Go find similar numbers for 22 year olds in league history. You won't find many with that type of playoff pedigree at such a young age.

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06-15-2010, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I don't think the Gomez and Giroux comparisons are far off, but I think Giroux is and will be better then Gomez in most departments, including goal-scoring. I don't expect Giroux to hit 30 goals or even 25, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was a consistent 20+ goal guy.
Why not? he had 39, 38 and 48 in Junior. He had 17 goals in 33 games with the Phamtoms. And 16 goals last year in his second year. Why would he not have 25 goal potential?

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