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Old
06-15-2010, 11:59 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
This isn't Giroux's first hot streak in pressure circumstances:

Giroux:
- Single handedly took Gatineau to the QMJHL league title with 51 points in 19 games winning the Guy Lafleur trophy for playoff MVP.
- Was Canadas best player at the World Junior Championships (or close to it)
- 26 points in 29 career playoff games in the NHL at age 22.

That is nothing short of amazing. Go find similar numbers for 22 year olds in league history. You won't find many with that type of playoff pedigree at such a young age.
Throw out the Q and WJC numbers. The NHL and "never ever made it" NHLers are littered with guys that put up very good numbers in those leagues and tournaments... those numbers get you drafted and hype, they do not necessarily translate to the NHL.

His playoff numbers to this point are nice... but 29 games is 29 games. It isn't much. And, as said, players tend to revert to mean. A lot of guys get branded as choke-artists early in their career (Simon Gagne leaps immediately to mind, and he now has 15 goals in his last 31 playoff games), while other guys carve out playoff legends and then you look back at their numbers later in their career and they've come back down to earth.

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06-15-2010, 12:02 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not? he had 39, 38 and 48 in Junior. He had 17 goals in 33 games with the Phamtoms. And 16 goals last year in his second year. Why would he not have 25 goal potential?
Ian Laperriere scored 44, and 41 in the Q. I will look forward to him having a breakout scoring year next year.

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06-15-2010, 12:04 PM
  #103
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This isn't a rumour, it's speculation that Montréal would want a kid with a French name back.

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06-15-2010, 12:06 PM
  #104
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Asking for Giroux is impossible after the playoffs he had...

But JVR on the other hand not sure I'd want him for Price

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06-15-2010, 12:14 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by phillyfanatic View Post
Why not? he had 39, 38 and 48 in Junior. He had 17 goals in 33 games with the Phamtoms. And 16 goals last year in his second year. Why would he not have 25 goal potential?
None of those stats prove anything really. Guys like Lapperriere, Asham, Brashear, and Carcillo were great scorers in those leagues and there's a mile-high list out there of great minor league scorers who never cut it in the NHL.

By NHL standards Giroux has an extremely weak shot and that's what limiting his potential.

It's not that I don't think Giroux can score 25+ goals, I think he can, I just don't think he'll do it consistently in his career.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I agree with that, I also think Giroux has a bit higher "compete" level than Gomez defensively. To this point, I think Gomez is a bit better playmaker than Giroux, however.
I definitely agree with all of that. The things that stands out the most to me, at least in comparison to Gomez, are how Giroux's able to play bigger then he is (I still love remembering how he wasted time off the clock by battling three or four Bruins at once) and his goal-scoring. Gomez is a horrible goal scorer. He's pitiful, in fact. The most you can expect from Gomez is 20 goals and that might be being hopeful. Giroux, while not much of a goal-scorer himself, certainly isn't bad at it.

While his shot is pretty bad, he often has the smarts to be in the right place at the right time to pot goals in. This is most obvious on the PP and is partly why Giroux is so good on the PP in my mind. He's a good PP goal scorer because what Giroux's shot lacks, he makes up for in creativity and positioning.

For those who don't remember that board battle I was talking about against the Bruins:


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06-15-2010, 12:18 PM
  #106
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Can the Flyers afford to lose him? I mean, they don't really have any young scoring wingers at all.

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06-15-2010, 12:25 PM
  #107
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This trade won't happen because it's not an equal prosposal all things considered. I hear what Jester has been saying about Price being more valuable should both reach their potential, and that's definitely true; Price is still an impact prospect and realistically an NHL goaltender right now. However, I see the two positions, and the likelihood of Giroux reaching his potential is more likely than Price reaching his. This isn't a certainty, but it's a point of contention.

More important when you consider this trade is what each player currently means to the organization and where they fit. Montreal is not going to sign both RFA goalies, so realistically they have a near necessity to trade one of them, while the Flyers need to keep some of the young cheap talent that they have. If this is the opening gambit of a potential trade, then there's nothing wrong with it, but the Flyers can walk away from this and possibly find a free agent goaltender, while the Habs have to look for another suitor if they expect a return of similar value.

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06-15-2010, 12:30 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbage Goal View Post
I definitely agree with all of that. The things that stands out the most to me, at least in comparison to Gomez, are how Giroux's able to play bigger then he is (I still love remembering how he wasted time off the clock by battling three or four Bruins at once) and his goal-scoring. Gomez is a horrible goal scorer. He's pitiful, in fact. The most you can expect from Gomez is 20 goals and that might be being hopeful. Giroux, while not much of a goal-scorer himself, certainly isn't bad at it.

While his shot is pretty bad, he often has the smarts to be in the right place at the right time to pot goals in. This is most obvious on the PP and is partly why Giroux is so good on the PP in my mind. He's a good PP goal scorer because what Giroux's shot lacks, he makes up for in creativity and positioning.

For those who don't remember that board battle I was talking about against the Bruins:

In fairness to Gomez, he does have a 30 goal season on his resume. Though, his shooting % was completely out of line with his career. The primary difference between the two on the goal scoring front is that Giroux tends to try and move the puck to the middle of the ice more than Gomez does. Gomez does more perimeter work looking for someone to come free, which is why I think he's had more success (at a younger age then Giroux, mind you) creating plays. One of my biggest frustrations with Giroux is that he tends to play the puck into congestion and lose it more than he needs to... That results in some goals (some fancy ones), but I think he's going to need to learn to hold the puck in space a bit more as he goes forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Claude2Giroux View Post
Can the Flyers afford to lose him? I mean, they don't really have any young scoring wingers at all.
JVR says Hi. And, yes, I think JVR is ultimately going to be better than Giroux... just needs to get stronger and develop a bit.

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06-15-2010, 12:39 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
...and do you shed tears over trading a complimentary forward for a potential franchise goalie? I don't think so. Sure, the trade could backfire and not work out... and I'm not sure you do it at this point with the signing of Bob and everything else, but the value isn't far off if at all.
What has Price done to obtain this Franchise goalie status? Im really quite confused.. He's had average numbers since his rookie year and his confidence seems to be rattled in every which way. Giroux isn't a complimentary player, why because he's easily has the most pure talent and hockey sense on the team. Carter never had a Defensive game when he came here out of the Sault', but the Flyers developed that. The fact that Claude had 21 points on the PP is quite remarkable considering he didn't start to play it until Lavy took over as the coach. I know your trying to downplay the Giroux hype but at this point in time, its only going to get worse, as Giroux gets better linemates and opportunities to play.

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06-15-2010, 12:44 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
What has Price done to obtain this Franchise goalie status? Im really quite confused.. He's had average numbers since his rookie year and his confidence seems to be rattled in every which way. Giroux isn't a complimentary player, why because he's easily has the most pure talent and hockey sense on the team. Carter never had a Defensive game when he came here out of the Sault', but the Flyers developed that. The fact that Claude had 21 points on the PP is quite remarkable considering he didn't start to play it until Lavy took over as the coach. I know your trying to downplay the Giroux hype but at this point in time, its only going to get worse, as Giroux gets better linemates and opportunities to play.
Who has ever said he has "franchise goalie status?" He has franchise goalie potential.

As to Giroux and the PP... 7 of his 21 PP points came in the first 24 games of the season... prior to Lavy taking over the team.

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06-15-2010, 12:44 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
In fairness to Gomez, he does have a 30 goal season on his resume. Though, his shooting % was completely out of line with his career. The primary difference between the two on the goal scoring front is that Giroux tends to try and move the puck to the middle of the ice more than Gomez does. Gomez does more perimeter work looking for someone to come free, which is why I think he's had more success (at a younger age then Giroux, mind you) creating plays. One of my biggest frustrations with Giroux is that he tends to play the puck into congestion and lose it more than he needs to... That results in some goals (some fancy ones), but I think he's going to need to learn to hold the puck in space a bit more as he goes forward.



JVR says Hi. And, yes, I think JVR is ultimately going to be better than Giroux... just needs to get stronger and develop a bit.
Until JVR develops the work ethic and need to go into the dirty areas and dominate he won't be anywhere near Claude. Him choosing the top of the circle "college" wrist shots over driving wide and beating defenders with your speed an skill is ridiculous. He reminds me of a Carter on the wing, just with no shot but just as soft.

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06-15-2010, 12:49 PM
  #112
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After the finals this place has turned into a booby hatchery.. This idea is the creation of a syphilitic brain. I'd like to know what Dali acid trip prism one sees the world to think swapping Giroux for Price is advantageous.. And to thee Habs no less, masterstroke.

Quote:
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JVR says Hi. And, yes, I think JVR is ultimately going to be better than Giroux... just needs to get stronger and develop a bit.
Looking forward to a reason to believe that.

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06-15-2010, 12:51 PM
  #113
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if i weere montreal... knowing philly's need for a goalie, i'd ask for carter and parent or another dman.

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06-15-2010, 12:52 PM
  #114
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old ed

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Originally Posted by tlkamps View Post
I think they are crazy for expecting this..



This was from ESPN insider via the Inquierer.

Discuss
The boss compared him to Clarke last year. I believe Clarke is still around.....

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06-15-2010, 12:54 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Until JVR develops the work ethic and need to go into the dirty areas and dominate he won't be anywhere near Claude. Him choosing the top of the circle "college" wrist shots over driving wide and beating defenders with your speed an skill is ridiculous. He reminds me of a Carter on the wing, just with no shot but just as soft.
You realize that he's been spending his summers doing the rather painful commute on the NJ Turnpike back and forth between his family's home in north Jersey and the Flyers training facility in south Jersey, right? To suggest he hasn't displayed work ethic is pure ignorance, and completely unfair to him. What's more, the Flyers weren't even paying him while he was doing that.

He just turned 21, and his game needs to be a power game... which he needs to get stronger in order to play effectively. Very few (if any) 21 y/o's have the physical maturity to play that game at the NHL level against men who have been professional athletes for 10+ years.

Simple fact, big lanky dudes like JVR take longer to develop than players like Giroux. Giroux doesn't need to get bigger and stronger to play his game effectively, JVR does... and that doesn't happen overnight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by clockwise View Post
Looking forward to a reason to believe that.
Until he hit the wall, he was one of the highest producing rookies in the NHL with limited minutes and no PP time.

So, there's a reason to believe it.

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06-15-2010, 01:00 PM
  #116
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Price

The Giroux for Price trade is not unreasonable or unlikely necessarily but it's definitely a high stakes gamble something Holmgren seems to be addicted to. If Mtl does give up Price they want a lot from what I understand b/c they still view him as having more upside than Halak. He just needs a change of scenery as staying in Montreal doesn't seem sustainable. It's almost like a Roy situation who by the way I recall Bob Clarke referring to him as "washed up" and insinuating he was a head case (what goalie isn't!)when he was available and wanted out of Montreal. Of course, we all know how much Colorado reaped the benefits of Roy for years....same with Forsberg who Flyers scout Inge Hammarstrom was devastated when the Flyers included him in the Lindros deal even though it was at Quebec's insistence.

Anyway, if the Flyers do make a pitch for Price it could be Homgren's biggest gamble but with way more upside than the Pronger gamble. The Emery experiment was a miscalc obviously and same with not making a counteroffer for Halak back in Dec when Halak pretty much made an ultimatum to Gainey. I know the Mtl coach preferred Halak over Price but Gainey liked Price so Gainey had to see what he could get for Halak and dangled him. I still think that part of any trade for Halak involved taking on Hamrlik's contract and that may have scared a lot of teams off but actually for the Flyers that would have ultimately worked out as Hamrlik picked it up in the playoffs when Markov went down. He would at least have played harder minutes than Parent and Lukas K. Montreal probably did ask for Carter as Halak's cap hit and Hamrlik's would have been near what Carter earns anway.

In short, I'm not totally against a Price for Giroux deal if it's even a viable rumor but I would hate to see Giroux go but then again goaltending is still the most important position in hockey and Price is a pretty fair risk to take...given our 2-3 year window to make it back to the cup.

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Old
06-15-2010, 01:00 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You're mistaking team success for what I think is a great season for a goalie as an individual is.

Brodeur:
21 - 27-11-8 .915 2.40
22 - 19-11-6 .902 2.45
23 - 34-30-12 .911 2.34
24 - 37-14-13 .927 1.88

At age 20, Price posted 24-12-3 .920 2.56... had a mediocre age 21, and was solid but not great this year. Hey, sort of exactly like what young Brodeur did in his first three seasons. Price just didn't have a stellar team in front of him the way Brodeur did.
Brodeur won the rookie of the year and was 4th in the league in save % and 2nd in GAA behind some guy named Hasek. I would say that's a great season relative to the rest of the NHL. Price never did that. Brodeur then had an average 2nd season and followed it up in his 3rd year by finishing 5th in the league in GAA and 2nd in shutouts. Price had a good rookie year but not nearly as good as Brodeur and has been nothing more than average since then. I think price will be good but I don't think Brodeur is a good comparison.

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Old
06-15-2010, 01:03 PM
  #118
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I can't describe how hilarious Montreal is for thinking that's a fair deal on Philly's end.
i don't know that it's hilarious. the thought of us actually trading giroux for price is hilarious, but i can't blame montreal for saying this. it's just their way of saying 'we're not trading away carey price to a conference rival unless they overpay'

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06-15-2010, 01:06 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You realize that he's been spending his summers doing the rather painful commute on the NJ Turnpike back and forth between his family's home in north Jersey and the Flyers training facility in south Jersey, right? To suggest he hasn't displayed work ethic is pure ignorance, and completely unfair to him. What's more, the Flyers weren't even paying him while he was doing that.

He just turned 21, and his game needs to be a power game... which he needs to get stronger in order to play effectively. Very few (if any) 21 y/o's have the physical maturity to play that game at the NHL level against men who have been professional athletes for 10+ years.

Simple fact, big lanky dudes like JVR take longer to develop than players like Giroux. Giroux doesn't need to get bigger and stronger to play his game effectively, JVR does... and that doesn't happen overnight.



Until he hit the wall, he was one of the highest producing rookies in the NHL with limited minutes and no PP time.

So, there's a reason to believe it.
agreed with everything you just said

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06-15-2010, 01:10 PM
  #120
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Brodeur won the rookie of the year and was 4th in the league in save % and 2nd in GAA behind some guy named Hasek. I would say that's a great season relative to the rest of the NHL. Price never did that. Brodeur then had an average 2nd season and followed it up in his 3rd year by finishing 5th in the league in GAA and 2nd in shutouts. Price had a good rookie year but not nearly as good as Brodeur and has been nothing more than average since then. I think price will be good but I don't think Brodeur is a good comparison.
Yeah, lets go back and look at those Devs teams...

Brodeur, as an individual player, didn't need to be stellar on a regular basis... especially early on in his career with those Devs teams. His first all-world year was his 4th.

Price lost the RoY to some dude named Kane, that put up 72 pts as a 19 y/o. Last year Mason won it as a goalie with weaker numbers than what Price put up. Price was tied for 6th in SVPCT his rookie year (with Brodeur)... and GAA is a team stat, not a goalie stat. Hasek and Brodeur, for example, played for two of the best clampdown teams in the NHL.

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06-15-2010, 01:15 PM
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadianFlyersFan18 View Post
Until JVR develops the work ethic and need to go into the dirty areas and dominate he won't be anywhere near Claude. Him choosing the top of the circle "college" wrist shots over driving wide and beating defenders with your speed an skill is ridiculous. He reminds me of a Carter on the wing, just with no shot but just as soft.
1.) You're complaining about his work ethic after one season? He just played his first full season, and it was significantly longer than the rookie season of most players, too.

2.) What the hell is a "college" wrist shot? JVR has a decent shot, but he needs a shooter tutor, hits the goalie's chest too often.

3.) JVR drove wide almost every single time he had the puck in the playoffs. Through the neutral zone, down the left wing boards, and then he was stuck looking to pass. He needs to grow into his size to drive towards the net. Be patient.

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06-15-2010, 01:23 PM
  #122
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Yeah I truly think Giroux will be one of our superstars. To let him go would be a huge mistake IMHO. It ain't gonna happen.

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06-15-2010, 01:27 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yeah, lets go back and look at those Devs teams...

Brodeur, as an individual player, didn't need to be stellar on a regular basis... especially early on in his career with those Devs teams. His first all-world year was his 4th.

Price lost the RoY to some dude named Kane, that put up 72 pts as a 19 y/o. Last year Mason won it as a goalie with weaker numbers than what Price put up. Price was tied for 6th in SVPCT his rookie year (with Brodeur)... and GAA is a team stat, not a goalie stat. Hasek and Brodeur, for example, played for two of the best clampdown teams in the NHL.
Price's rookie season he put up almost exactly the same number as Huet. Same GAA and same Save % on the best team in the East. It wasn't like he carried that team. Since that season he followed it up by finishing outside the top 20 in save % the last 2 seasons.

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06-15-2010, 01:29 PM
  #124
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MTL is not going to be looking to do the team that ended their season 2 of the last 3 years any favors. I'm sure MTL would deal Price here but they would demand way to much in return.

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06-15-2010, 01:30 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Price's rookie season he put up almost exactly the same number as Huet. Same GAA and same Save % on the best team in the East. It wasn't like he carried that team. Since that season he followed it up by finishing outside the top 20 in save % the last 2 seasons.
which is better than the vast majority of 22 y/o goalies you're going to look at.

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