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06-15-2010, 04:25 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I'd love to here these alternatives.
Me too.

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06-15-2010, 04:27 PM
  #302
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I posted this in the UFA thread but I feel like it fits better here:

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I really can't stress enough how smart if would be of Shero to do whatever it takes (that is reasonable of course. ex. 4th round pick or Dupuis etc.) to get Whitney's rights. If you can get Whitney's rights and lock him up, the Free Agency focus then goes to defense and we really can start to build a much better team IMO.

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06-15-2010, 04:59 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I'm going to be very disappointed if we don't sign him.

You haven't endured many Penguin summers, have you?



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Originally Posted by elevener
Another year, another thread about some old dude who can help a young team.
Please tell me you're not equating the offensive capabilities of: Mark Recchi, Gary Roberts, Peter Sykora, Bill Guerin (at the time we signed them), to Ray Whitney today. I agree about old guys in general, but Whitney is by far the best old dude we will have signed (better than some of the young guys we signed too - Feds, Poni, etc). I would say Whitney has more in the tank than Gonch does and no one is freaking out at the prospect of signing him for 1-2 years (although if they're like me they might be freaking out at the prospect of paying $5M for it... more than 2x what we'd have to pay Whitney I'm guessing).


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06-15-2010, 06:27 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by andyg26 View Post
I posted this in the UFA thread but I feel like it fits better here:
I am beginning to agree. My mindset has went from "It would be nice to get Whitney," to, "We have got to get Whitney."

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06-15-2010, 06:44 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
I am beginning to agree. My mindset has went from "It would be nice to get Whitney," to, "We have got to get Whitney."
It just does so much for us in many ways. It allows us to, for sure, keep our 1st round pick. That 1st round pick probably will be ready when Whitney is ready to hang the skates up as well. Getting Whitney possibily before July 1st would also be awesome because then come July 1st, we are looking almost entirely at getting our big name defenseman (Gonchar, Hamhuis, Michalek, Volchenkov) and we will know pretty much exactly what we can spend.

Shero can give up very few assets to get Whitney here before July 1st IMO. I think Shero can afford to overpay (if we are talking late draft picks) to get a player like Whitney's rights.

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06-15-2010, 07:10 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by andyg26 View Post
I posted this in the UFA thread but I feel like it fits better here:
John Curry pretty please, I'm not sure I do Dupuis as I think he could fetch a 3rd on his own. I'd probably do a 5th but If Shero did make an offer for him at the deadline he probably has a good idea if he wants to play for us or not.

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06-15-2010, 07:12 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
John Curry pretty please, I'm not sure I do Dupuis as I think he could fetch a 3rd on his own. I'd probably do a 5th but If Shero did make an offer for him at the deadline he probably has a good idea if he wants to play for us or not.
Yeah, I just really don't know what kind of compensation Carolina would want. This isn't Jay Bo we are talking about. I think a 4th or 5th rounder would do the trick though... and Whitney has a NTC, so he'd have to agree to come here still correct?

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06-15-2010, 07:42 PM
  #308
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What's more valuable? A 4th round pick or a long shot prospect (CPZ type)?

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06-15-2010, 07:50 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
What's more valuable? A 4th round pick or a long shot prospect (CPZ type)?
I'd prefer to keep the 4th myself, I'm not a big fan of CPZ from what little I've seen of him.

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06-15-2010, 08:14 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
What's more valuable? A 4th round pick or a long shot prospect (CPZ type)?
I mean as much as everyone loves draft picks, outside of the top 3 rounds, it is very rare to get a quality player. It is even rarer that a player is going to be a significant contributor past the top 3 rounds. That's why I would have no problem dealing a 4th rounder for his rights.

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06-15-2010, 08:43 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by andyg26 View Post
I mean as much as everyone loves draft picks, outside of the top 3 rounds, it is very rare to get a quality player. It is even rarer that a player is going to be a significant contributor past the top 3 rounds. That's why I would have no problem dealing a 4th rounder for his rights.
With the Pens, I'm more reluctant to trade a 4th round pick than a 2nd. The Pens have had a lot more success in the 4th (and the 3rd, for that matter) than they have had in the 2nd...

So I'd rather trade the long-shot prospect, since the Pens have about a 20% chance of drafting an NHL player out of the 4th round, given their recent drafting record (i.e., 1999-2005)


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06-15-2010, 09:08 PM
  #312
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For me, nothing has changed re: Whitney. For 2 years, $6 million, welcome to Pittsburgh Ray. For three years, see ya later. For more than $6 million over two years, I'd like to see our other options.

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06-16-2010, 01:02 AM
  #313
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Originally Posted by wej20 View Post
I'd love to here these alternatives.
Tangauy, Zherdev, Frolov, Higgins, Afinogenov -- all capable of producing the same numbers as Whitney (especially playing with Sid and Geno) and they aren't ancient. Obviousy the first three are better than the last 2, but you get my point.

Yes believe it or not theres an entire crop of UFAs out there not named Whitney and not approaching 40...

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06-16-2010, 01:07 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Tangauy, Zherdev, Frolov, Higgins -- all capable of producing the same numbers as Whitney (especially playing with Sid and Geno) and they aren't ancient.

Yes believe it or not theres an entire crop of UFAs out there not named Whitney and not approaching 40...
Ha, yeah they all COULD match Whitney's numbers. Frolov certainly could but he'll cost more. Tanguay could but in all likelihood won't. Zherdev might, he might not. He's a flake who knows? Higgins could if we sent him to Wilkes-Barre LOL.

You're paying for reliability as much as you're paying for the player's talent. Whitney will get it done, his career points to that. I don't mind if people PREFER youth, but I don't want a younger guy at the expense of talent just because he'd be dirt cheap. There are some options you mentioned and that other people have mentioned that yeah, they'd be cheap but they'd also almost certainly be wastes of time.

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06-16-2010, 01:19 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
Ha, yeah they all COULD match Whitney's numbers. Frolov certainly could but he'll cost more. Tanguay could but in all likelihood won't. Zherdev might, he might not. He's a flake who knows? Higgins could if we sent him to Wilkes-Barre LOL.

You're paying for reliability as much as you're paying for the player's talent. Whitney will get it done, his career points to that. I don't mind if people PREFER youth, but I don't want a younger guy at the expense of talent just because he'd be dirt cheap. There are some options you mentioned and that other people have mentioned that yeah, they'd be cheap but they'd also almost certainly be wastes of time.
Take a look at Zherdev's past two NHL seasons. What reasoning do you have to say that he WOULDN'T match Whitney's number? He's been consistent in his past two NHL seasons...he also posted 39 points in 59 games in the KHL (not that that really matters) You put that kid on a line with Sid or Geno...he's gonna be consistent.

As for Frolov...his past 3 seasons and pretty much on par with Whitney's. He made 2.9 last season...he isn't getting a huge raise. Sure he may cost more than Whitney, but not by a whole lot and hes a guy you could keep around more than a year or so...unlike oldman Whitney.

Tanguay as a playmaker on Malkin's wing is a worth a look whether you wanna admit it or not.

I'll give you Higgins. He was kind of a throw in. He has really only had one good season.

I also forgot to mention Vinny Prospal.

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06-16-2010, 01:51 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Take a look at Zherdev's past two NHL seasons. What reasoning do you have to say that he WOULDN'T match Whitney's number?
I would like Zherdev on the Pens too, but if you're just talking numbers, I think you have to remember that Whitney has generally been closer to 80 points a season than the 60 plateau Zherdev has been on. Whitney's decrease in output last season has a lot to do with Canes having a nightmare start to the season with Staal missing a bunch of games, Pitkanen and Ruutu too, and of course Ward missing most the season.
Of course, Zherdev could feasibly have a career year on the Pens as he has never played in the NHL with that much talent around him, but beyond points, Whitney is a better player as regards effort, leadership etc. Obviously there's also the risk there with him being 38 and all, but we're yet to see that limiting him. He only got better after hitting 30 and the decline that will come hasn't set in yet. With the right numbers on the contract, he'd be a great catch still.

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Tanguay as a playmaker on Malkin's wing is a worth a look whether you wanna admit it or not.
On this we absolutely agree.

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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
I also forgot to mention Vinny Prospal.
...and for me the case is the same with Prospal. He is still being paid by the Lightning which could also be an argument that the numbers will fit well. More physical than Tanguay, but also more of a risk with his age perhaps being part of him tapering off near the end in the last third of the season. With us Bylsma wouldn't have to ride him as hard as Tortorella did though.

Ultimately - Whitney, Zherdev, Tanguay, Prospal.... if the money is right, either one of them would be a real catch for us, IMO.

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06-16-2010, 04:36 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Take a look at Zherdev's past two NHL seasons. What reasoning do you have to say that he WOULDN'T match Whitney's number? He's been consistent in his past two NHL seasons...he also posted 39 points in 59 games in the KHL (not that that really matters) You put that kid on a line with Sid or Geno...he's gonna be consistent.

As for Frolov...his past 3 seasons and pretty much on par with Whitney's. He made 2.9 last season...he isn't getting a huge raise. Sure he may cost more than Whitney, but not by a whole lot and hes a guy you could keep around more than a year or so...unlike oldman Whitney.

Tanguay as a playmaker on Malkin's wing is a worth a look whether you wanna admit it or not.

I'll give you Higgins. He was kind of a throw in. He has really only had one good season.

I also forgot to mention Vinny Prospal.
We'll see. If Zherdev is so money then a lot of teams will want him. If we get him for a low price you should be worried.

I don't have a problem with Frolov whatsoever and I actually agree he won't get a ton of cash but others vehemently disagree.

Tanguay is "worth a look," why would I have a problem admitting that? I'm just not so sure about pencilling him in or getting excited over him as others are doing. He had one less goal than Feds last year, for god's sake and if you don't think anything's wrong with him there are 29 GMs that would disagree with you because the guy rotted all summer until Tampa picked him up. I'd love to have him if we don't get the first 5-6 guys we want, but that's as far as I'll go.

No problem with Prospal whatsoever. In fact I think he's right in our wheelhouse and should be one of our first winger targets.

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06-16-2010, 06:28 AM
  #318
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Back in May there was talk that Frolov was looking for 5M/year this summer. I think he gets at least 4 and will probably end up between 4-5/year.

If we can somehow get him for anything under 4 we'd have to make that deal but I doubt that happens. He's the only young-ish scoring threat available this summer.

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06-16-2010, 06:41 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Tangauy, Zherdev, Frolov, Higgins, Afinogenov -- all capable of producing the same numbers as Whitney (especially playing with Sid and Geno) and they aren't ancient. Obviousy the first three are better than the last 2, but you get my point.

Yes believe it or not theres an entire crop of UFAs out there not named Whitney and not approaching 40...
Tanguay - I'd take a gamble on at around 1 million but he can't be counted on for 50 points

Zherdev - Wouldn't be a bad idea but is flaky, Will cost close to Whitney

Higgins - Looks like he's completly lost his Mojo

Afinogenov - cost at least 2 million and could revert back to his 07-08 and 08-09 Buffalo form.

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Originally Posted by WVP View Post
Back in May there was talk that Frolov was looking for 5M/year this summer. I think he gets at least 4 and will probably end up between 4-5/year.

If we can somehow get him for anything under 4 we'd have to make that deal but I doubt that happens. He's the only young-ish scoring threat available this summer.
I think he's getting at least 4 to, He maybe enigmatic and have work ethic issues but it's a weak year for wingers and he has potential to put up 30 goals 60 points.

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06-16-2010, 07:26 AM
  #320
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Back in May there was talk that Frolov was looking for 5M/year this summer. I think he gets at least 4 and will probably end up between 4-5/year.

If we can somehow get him for anything under 4 we'd have to make that deal but I doubt that happens. He's the only young-ish scoring threat available this summer.
Exactly, and that could drive his amount up being such.

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06-16-2010, 08:04 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Geno View Post
Tangauy, Zherdev, Frolov, Higgins, Afinogenov -- all capable of producing the same numbers as Whitney (especially playing with Sid and Geno) and they aren't ancient. Obviousy the first three are better than the last 2, but you get my point.

Yes believe it or not theres an entire crop of UFAs out there not named Whitney and not approaching 40...
How many of those names are proven playoff performers like Whitney?

Tanguay was many years ago - and no one knows what you will get from him now, except that he is sure to over pass.

How many of those players has been as consistent as Whitney every season?

None.

How many of those players has Whitney's hockey sense and skill level?

None.

If you didn't know who Whitney was and I told you he was a young prospect and showed you tape of the Worlds - you would be drooling all over yourself hoping the Pens would sign him.

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06-16-2010, 10:23 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
How many of those names are proven playoff performers like Whitney?

Tanguay was many years ago - and no one knows what you will get from him now, except that he is sure to over pass.

How many of those players has been as consistent as Whitney every season?

None.

How many of those players has Whitney's hockey sense and skill level?

None.

If you didn't know who Whitney was and I told you he was a young prospect and showed you tape of the Worlds - you would be drooling all over yourself hoping the Pens would sign him.
...what?

And uh, Frolov has been just as consistent as Whitney. Zherdev was just beginning his NHL career so its impossible to say he isn't as consistent as Whitney, but if you look at his last two NHL seasons you can make the argument that he was improving and was consistently hitting around the same number of points.

And to whoever said Whitney has been hovering around 80 points...that was in 06/07. If we're going by that year than Tanguay is a must sign

And if Frolov is gonna command 4 million...hes definitely out of our price range, but then again, him at 4 million...whos price range would he even be in?

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06-16-2010, 10:30 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
How many of those names are proven playoff performers like Whitney?

Tanguay was many years ago - and no one knows what you will get from him now, except that he is sure to over pass.

How many of those players has been as consistent as Whitney every season?

None.

How many of those players has Whitney's hockey sense and skill level?

None.

If you didn't know who Whitney was and I told you he was a young prospect and showed you tape of the Worlds - you would be drooling all over yourself hoping the Pens would sign him.

Agreed for the most part, except Frolov. I believe he has the potential, with a change in venue, to be a very good player. He's somewhat inconsistent at times but his talent level and other attributes (hustle, two-way capability) outshine [the other alternatives to Whitney] on that list. The other guys are bigger question marks for sure, and their salaries will reflect it ultimately.

I don't know what the love for Tanguay and Higgins is about this week. They would be better than Feds probably, but should be absolute last-resort type players in everyone's mind because they have consistently underachieved in recent years, on some very talented lines. Higgins has a better shot to excel than Tanguay IMO but they both suck compared to guys like Whitney or Frolov. Probably Zherdev too, who is sort of an enigma but has shown signs of good play, unlike Tanguay especially. Moreover neither Higgins nor Tanguay is anything like a typical Shero player. Frolov, OTOH, is much closer to a Shero type player because he handles his business on both sides of the ice and has very good skills.

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06-16-2010, 10:36 AM
  #324
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Agreed for the most part, except Frolov. I believe he has the potential, with a change in venue, to be a very good player. He's somewhat inconsistent at times but his talent level and other attributes (hustle, two-way capability) outshine [the other alternatives to Whitney] on that list. The other guys are bigger question marks for sure, and their salaries will reflect it ultimately.

I don't know what the love for Tanguay and Higgins is about this week. They would be better than Feds probably, but should be absolute last-resort type players in everyone's mind because they have consistently underachieved in recent years, on some very talented lines. Higgins has a better shot to excel than Tanguay IMO but they both suck as options compared to guys like Whitney or Frolov. Probably Zherdev too, who is sort of an enigma but has shown signs of good play, unlike Tanguay especially. Moreover neither Higgins nor Tanguay is anything like a typical Shero player. Frolov, OTOH, is much closer to a Shero type player because he handles his business on both sides of the ice and has very good skills.
Just curious, what are your thoughts on Prospal, possibly on Malkin's wing?

And I'll admit, I'm buying into Zherdev alot and putting a lot of eggs in that basket, but I really believe he'd blossom with the talent on our team. And if he did...imagine getting legit sniper who's 25 years old. If he doesn't? He's good for 50/60 points which nobody can complain about. I think a lot of folks just aren't giving Zherdev a chance. He was a lot better then people give the guy credit for.

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06-16-2010, 10:48 AM
  #325
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...what?

And uh, Frolov has been just as consistent as Whitney. Zherdev was just beginning his NHL career so its impossible to say he isn't as consistent as Whitney, but if you look at his last two NHL seasons you can make the argument that he was improving and was consistently hitting around the same number of points.

And to whoever said Whitney has been hovering around 80 points...that was in 06/07. If we're going by that year than Tanguay is a must sign

And if Frolov is gonna command 4 million...hes definitely out of our price range, but then again, him at 4 million...whos price range would he even be in?
Did you ever watch any of these guys? Not to be a dick, but it doesn't seem that you have. Like Jig said, if you saw Whitney and someone told you he was 29 or 30 instead of 38, that would be everyone's flavor of the month. But because he's older, all of a sudden he isn't a good option. I know from watching him, the guy has 2 or 3 years of game left. He would make our 1st line better, and our powerplay lethal. 30 goals and 60+ points is in the realm of possibility.

Whitney is the more consistent of any one there. Frolov and Zherdev are highly skilled, but both are inconsistent and Zherdev is said to have some attitude issues. No one is saying that they aren't highly skilled, just that there's a lot of factors that we as a team can't control.

There's going to be a couple teams that will like Frolov's upside and will give him upwards of 4 million a year.

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