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Old
06-16-2010, 12:14 PM
  #101
CS
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Carter got hurt AFTER the trade deadline. His injury has ZERO BEARING on analyzing the decision Holmgren made at the trade deadline. Unless you're suggesting he can see the future.
I never said it did. Would you please learn to read?

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Tossing away the season when Emery got hurt is ludicrous, as well. Why? Because you can make a trade for another goalie...
And give up what? JVR? Carter? Giroux?

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06-16-2010, 12:19 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
I never said it did. Would you please learn to read?
Learn to write. If Carter's injury has no bearing on analyzing Holmgren's decision, then you don't write:

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I guess that's possible, but by the time Emery got hurt, I had already tossed away this season. I think Holmgren thought the same. When Carter got hurt too, it looked like standing pat was the right move.
That's explicitly suggesting that Carter's injury is relevant to analyzing Holmgren's decision making. Unless the man is a soothsayer, Carter's injury is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to understanding his job as a GM at the trade deadline.

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And give up what? JVR? Carter? Giroux?
How about an AHL'er for Biron... Ellis... figure out something for Roloson. I don't think Montreal was trading Price at the deadline. So, no, you're not talking about one of those guys then.

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06-16-2010, 12:25 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
That's explicitly suggesting that Carter's injury is relevant to analyzing Holmgren's decision making. Unless the man is a soothsayer, Carter's injury is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to understanding his job as a GM at the trade deadline.
No, it's suggesting that Holmgren had stood pat not knowing what would happen coming out of the break without our starting goaltender. The fact that Carter got injured and that we barely limped into the playoffs, made his decision look correct.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
How about an AHL'er for Biron... Ellis... figure out something for Roloson. I don't think Montreal was trading Price at the deadline. So, no, you're not talking about one of those guys then.
I would've liked Biron or Ellis or even Roloson. The question is what were the asking prices? We don't have draft picks to give up remember.

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06-16-2010, 12:33 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
No, it's suggesting that Holmgren had stood pat not knowing what would happen coming out of the break without our starting goaltender. The fact that Carter got injured and that we barely limped into the playoffs, made his decision look correct.
No, it didn't. On March 3rd, when Paul Holmgren had all the relevant information to make the decision he made, he made the wrong decision. We were a very good team and NEEDED a goalie to have a real shot at the Cup (that was assuming we'd have to play one of -- at least -- Washington and Pitt in the playoffs). He didn't get a goalie. That was the WRONG decision.

Carter getting hurt happened after that decision was made... it has NO bearing on understanding what was going on in Paul Holmgren's mind at the time, and analyzing the job he did as a GM this year.

Additionally, we probably would have made the playoffs with ease if he had acquired a goalie. Because if you want to play the injury card, the biggest factor wasn't Carter... it was that Boucher was flat terrible for a stretch before he got his feet under him.

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I would've liked Biron or Ellis or even Roloson. The question is what were the asking prices? We don't have draft picks to give up remember.
I don't know. Biron couldn't have been much... he was an expiring contract and they had three goalies, two of whom were signed through next year. Might as well get something for him, even if it's a marginal prospect.

And, yes, we don't have picks. Whose fault is that?

Your ability to avoid critical analysis of Holmgren is mesmerizing in its own way.

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06-16-2010, 12:35 PM
  #105
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Of course no one knows what the cost was for acquiring another goalie. Were teams holding the Flyers hostage for a goalie? I dont know.
Biron or Roloson wouldnt of made a differance IMO.
Ellis would of been good, but I think Nashville thought of him the way they did Hamhuis. They were going to keep him and try and win with him.

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06-16-2010, 12:36 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
Of course no one knows what the cost was for acquiring another goalie. Were teams holding the Flyers hostage for a goalie? I dont know.
Biron or Roloson wouldnt of made a differance IMO.
Ellis would of been good, but I think Nashville thought of him the way they did Hamhuis. They were going to keep him and try and win with him.
I think Ellis could have been had for the right offer, but probably more than Biron/Roloson. Nashville made the playoffs, and you don't want to only have one goalie you can rely on in the event someone gets hurt or whatever. The Isles... they had every reason to trade a goalie for something cheap.

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06-16-2010, 12:43 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think Ellis could have been had for the right offer, but probably more than Biron/Roloson. Nashville made the playoffs, and you don't want to only have one goalie you can rely on in the event someone gets hurt or whatever. The Isles... they had every reason to trade a goalie for something cheap.



Homer saw Biron play in Long Island this year, at least that's going to be my assumption as to why he didn't end up here. Rolosson was a guy I wanted, but any GM worth his salt would've been bending Homer over that close to the deadline.

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06-16-2010, 12:45 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club View Post
Homer saw Biron play in Long Island this year, at least that's going to be my assumption as to why he didn't end up here. Rolosson was a guy I wanted, but any GM worth his salt would've been bending Homer over that close to the deadline.
Yeah, well we saw Biron for 2+ seasons here... I think the troubles up there had more to do with the Isles and inconsistent playing time. It was at least worth the effort at that point.

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06-16-2010, 12:48 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
I think Ellis could have been had for the right offer, but probably more than Biron/Roloson. Nashville made the playoffs, and you don't want to only have one goalie you can rely on in the event someone gets hurt or whatever. The Isles... they had every reason to trade a goalie for something cheap.
I think that was the one reason they got Biron so they could acquire an asset at the deadline. Didnt work out for them. I was shocked when they didnt move him at the deadline, whether it was to Philly or somewhere else.
What was the Flyers cap situation at the deadline? I cant recall when they LTIR'd Emery.

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06-16-2010, 12:50 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I think that was the one reason they got Biron so they could acquire an asset at the deadline. Didnt work out for them. I was shocked when they didnt move him at the deadline, whether it was to Philly or somewhere else.
What was the Flyers cap situation at the deadline? I cant recall when they LTIR'd Emery.
When doesn't matter.

I'm not entirely sure of all the numbers, but I'm pretty sure either would have been OK against the cap. Remember, they had Cote to drop if they needed to (and Holmgren had put him on waivers just in case he needed to send him down).

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06-16-2010, 12:56 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I think that was the one reason they got Biron so they could acquire an asset at the deadline. Didnt work out for them. I was shocked when they didnt move him at the deadline, whether it was to Philly or somewhere else.
What was the Flyers cap situation at the deadline? I cant recall when they LTIR'd Emery.
I know he was placed on injury reserve before the deadline.

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06-16-2010, 12:58 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Libertine View Post
I know he was placed on injury reserve before the deadline.
Yes, that would matter, true. And, yeah, his situation was known prior to the deadline (believe they announced it just before the Olympics, or during the Olympic break?).

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06-16-2010, 01:03 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
When doesn't matter.

I'm not entirely sure of all the numbers, but I'm pretty sure either would have been OK against the cap. Remember, they had Cote to drop if they needed to (and Holmgren had put him on waivers just in case he needed to send him down).
it would of mattered if they needed his cap space at the deadline to get another goalie. Now that I think of it they made the Emery move and the Cote move right at the deadline or the day before making many thinking they were about to make a move. Even when the rumored Hamhuis deal falling thru there was still many who thought the Flyers were gearing up for a move at the deadline.
In the end the Flyers werent either willing to pay the price or they didnt have the assets(draft picks) to make a move.

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06-16-2010, 01:11 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Yes, that would matter, true. And, yeah, his situation was known prior to the deadline (believe they announced it just before the Olympics, or during the Olympic break?).
I think they didn't announce it and place him on LTI until about a day or two before the deadline. I remember some on here freaking out that he announced it before the deadline because teams would know he was desperate.

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06-16-2010, 01:27 PM
  #115
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Thank you Bill:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=28822

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The other day on the Sports Final program, Howard Eskin reported that the Flyers are unhappy with James Van Riemsdyk and that he is a player who could be used as trade bait this summer. While I doubt that JVR will be moved at this stage of his career, Eskin's report is not the first indication that the organization is concerned about whether the second overall pick of the 2007 NHL Entry Draft is going to be able to fulfill his potential in orange and black.

It is not a question of physical ability. Although he can still stand to add muscle, when he applies himself, Van Riemsdyk's skill level jumps out at you. There were several games this season where he was one of the best players on the ice for either team.

It's certainly not a matter of statistics, either. For a 20-year-old rookie skating primarily on the third line, his 15 regular season goals and 35 points (plus 3 playoff goals and 3 playoff assists) were acceptable production.

Instead, it's a question over JVR's internal drive and competitiveness. Earlier this season, sources within the Flyers organization said that JVR was not the kind of player "who will go through a wall for you" to win, while an NHL scout who regularly attends games in Philly said of JVR that "he's a skilled kid but he's real soft, and you can't teach heart."

Personally, I think it's asinine to label a player when he's so young. The Flyers started to question JVR's desire two years ago when he opted for a second collegiate season over a pro season in the AHL. That immediately put him behind the eight ball, and JVR didn't do much his second college season or during his end-of-season stint with the Phantoms to show that he belonged in the NHL.

Last summer, however, JVR put in a lot of hard work and earned a spot in the NHL on his own merits after an eye-popping rookie camp and excellent preseason. He carried it over early in the regular season but then hit a wall in November. After a brief resurgence before the Olympics, he disappeared for much of the remainder of the season. Van Riemsdyk dressed for most of the playoffs but ended up a healthy scratch for two games in the Stanley Cup Final. When he returned, he had a couple solid games and got back onto the scoresheet.

During his struggles, there was apparently a belief that Van Riemsdyk was not as committed as he should have been to doing the little things on the ice that it takes to work through a slump. Rather than simplifying his game and trying to help out in other areas, he tried to be strictly a finesse player and made little to no impact on games.

That's how it usually goes with rookies. They are used to dominating at lower levels and need to learn to adjust their games to the rigors of the NHL. In addition, the grueling NHL schedule is an eye-opener in and of itself. The Flyers' brass is savvy enough to realize that.

Van Riemdsyk is an earnest, friendly and laid back young man off the ice. He may not wear his competitiveness on his sleeve, but it's a mistake to assume that it's not there because he doesn't show outward signs of intensity on or off the ice. Frankly, I think he's come a long way since this time last year and if he progresses at a similar rate over the next few years, he's going to be a fine NHL player.

With the Flyers lacking prospects in the system and JVR and Claude Giroux being the best young NHLers in the organization, I don't think the club is a position to further deplete its depth by moving JVR as part of a deal to improve either the defense or goaltender. Keep in mind that skilled players on rookie contracts are at a premium in the NHL's salary cap age. While Van Riemsdyk isn't entirely untouchable, I'd be very surprised if he's anywhere but Philadelphia over the next couple seasons.

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06-16-2010, 04:39 PM
  #116
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I just came here to post this. It's not exactly on topic but in the second part of the article it notes that Briere "incidentally" was going through some of the same off ice issues as Hartnell.

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06-16-2010, 06:28 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
I think that was the one reason they got Biron so they could acquire an asset at the deadline. Didnt work out for them. I was shocked when they didnt move him at the deadline, whether it was to Philly or somewhere else.
What was the Flyers cap situation at the deadline? I cant recall when they LTIR'd Emery.
Stumbled across this discussion - just thought I would drop in and let you know the Isles stance on this as per their Newsday beat writer immediately after the deadline passed:

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The Islanders signed Biron on July 22 with the full intention of trading him for a draft pick at the deadline, and although Snow did focus his efforts Wednesday on trading him, he was unsuccessful.

It is believed that Biron's cap hit of $1.4 million - albeit prorated for the last six weeks of the season - deterred at least one potential suitor.

Snow did receive an offer for Roloson, whom he called his MVP on Wednesday, but not one that was worthy of consideration.
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The Islanders are trying to build their core and Snow would gladly have dealt Sean Bergenheim , Richard Park and either Dwayne Roloson or Martin Biron had the price been right. A source told Newsday that the best offer for Park was a fifth-round draft pick, the best offer for Roloson was a fourth-rounder and the best offer for Biron was . . . well, there really were no offers for Biron .

Snow may have overplayed his hand with the goalies. As Newsday reported on Friday, a few anonymous Islanders are grumbling about the goaltending situation, with both Roloson and Biron still here and the hope that Rick DiPietro will play again this season. Snow had a couple low-ball offers for Biron in the last few months, but opted to wait.
Biron was quite upset he didn't get traded - he admitted to being vocal about it to anyone who would listen so it was speculated some of the 'grumblings' came from him - but there were no offers from other teams at the deadline and Snow had been trying to trade him for weeks. Guess he should have accepted the first offer that came along earlier.

DiPietro had just gone back on IR, so that probably drove up the asking price for Roli. Roli was more valuable to the Isles than Biron so any offer for him had to make the team better. In addition, Roli is signed for the upcoming season which could have deterred other teams and would have also deterred the Isles from accepting a lowball offer because with DP back on IR and still questionable the team remained in need of a starter for this upcoming season.

It was to the point that Garth would have taken anything for Biron at the deadline - i.e. some combination of late round picks in either 2010 or 2011. Roli was/is more valuable to the Isles so the price was higher.

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