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Next 4 years - Stanley Cup Bound?

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Old
06-16-2010, 02:04 PM
  #26
xposbrad
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Did we somehow fix our scoring problem in the offseason that I'm not aware about? I mean, we're a low scoring team, we have hardly any prospect depth now that Subban is up, and our best dman Markov has 1 year left on his deal.

Where do we plan the parade route? lol

We barely made the playoffs last season....Don't be fooled by lucky goaltending, it might not be there next time around. We're a middle of the pack team, and will be due to poor prospect depth for the near future.

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06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottyG 91 View Post
I'd say Buffalo has a better core than us after glancing through that list. Might be others that I missed.
No team with an enigma such as Vanek and a weak, aging #4 d-man like Rivet in its core should be considered better than Montreal... at least, not as far as the core is concerned.

Miller might be the best goalie in the world, Roy is not better than what we have, Cammalleri is the best goalscorer among the 6 forwards, and Gionta is the most complete forward of the group as well.

Myers might be a great rookie, it's unbelievable how he's overrated. He's not at the level of guys like Markov just yet... Not at all! And Rivet wouldn't even crack our top-4... Hell, I wonder if I'd take him on our top-6 over anything we have right now.

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06-16-2010, 02:06 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by xposbrad View Post
Did we somehow fix our scoring problem in the offseason that I'm not aware about? I mean, we're a low scoring team, we have hardly any prospect depth now that Subban is up, and our best dman Markov has 1 year left on his deal.

Where do we plan the parade route? lol

We barely made the playoffs last season....Don't be fooled by lucky goaltending, it might not be there next time around. We're a middle of the pack team, and will be due to poor prospect depth for the near future.
You are right, we suck, let's just forget about the up coming season...nothing to see here. We can finally tank like everyone has been promoting for a while now, but Timmins sucks, we'd probably draft the wrong player.

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06-16-2010, 02:08 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by xposbrad View Post
Did we somehow fix our scoring problem in the offseason that I'm not aware about? I mean, we're a low scoring team, we have hardly any prospect depth now that Subban is up, and our best dman Markov has 1 year left on his deal.

Where do we plan the parade route? lol

We barely made the playoffs last season....Don't be fooled by lucky goaltending, it might not be there next time around. We're a middle of the pack team, and will be due to poor prospect depth for the near future.
Markov might have one year, what the hell does that have to do with anything.
Subban being in the big league at such a young age DOESN'T impact our future in any kind of way. He's just being too good for the AHL at such a young age, which is a good thing.
Cammalleri and Gionta are two players who have missed 1/4 of the season last year, and would likely have combined for about 20 goals together had they not been injured, all this without taking Markov's injury into account.
As far as goaltending is concerned, it's part of a team game such as hockey.

You'd be better off on the RDS boards.

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06-16-2010, 02:12 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
No team with an enigma such as Vanek and a weak, aging #4 d-man like Rivet in its core should be considered better than Montreal... at least, not as far as the core is concerned.

Miller might be the best goalie in the world, Roy is not better than what we have, Cammalleri is the best goalscorer among the 6 forwards, and Gionta is the most complete forward of the group as well.

Myers might be a great rookie, it's unbelievable how he's overrated. He's not at the level of guys like Markov just yet... Not at all! And Rivet wouldn't even crack our top-4... Hell, I wonder if I'd take him on our top-6 over anything we have right now.
Myers over Markov?

I'd trade Markov for Myers in a mililililminillilinano second.

Huge, Mobile, Smart, Tough, Dominant, YOUNG ...

Come on, Markovian love on these boards is beyond normal. Culprit: Too many years of mediocrity so we make superstars our of stars (Markov), and stars out of good players etc..etc..

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06-16-2010, 02:12 PM
  #31
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Here's my evaluation:

Our core of Cammalleri, Gomez, Gionta, Markov, Subban, Gorges, Halak, Price and Pouliot is a very good core. I'm not putting Plekanec there yet and yes I am putting Pouliot there because of his potential because I'm not certain Plekanec will be around come July 1st. If he is, he joins the list. We need to surround these players with size and get meaner. Guys like Moen, Moore and Gill are a start but we need warriors on this team. It's no coincidence that Pronger, Hartnell and Byfuglien made the finals. We need guys like that to take this team up to the next level - players with mean streaks that are intimidating for the opposition to play against. We don't have it and we're 3 players away from being challengers.

We need two top 6 wingers (Carter, Hartnell, Byfuglien, Clowe, Sharp - that quality) and one top 2 defenseman (a player like Pronger). Only then can we regularly challenge. Now Carter and Sharp aren't big and brutal but Carter's a 40 goal scorer and Sharp can play all 3 forward positions. I don't think you'll find a top 2 defenseman in the trade or UFA market, it'll be a king's ransom. You have to draft one of these.

There are 3 defensemen in the top 5 of the draft this year. If we can get one of these guys and a guy like Sharp from Chicago, this will be a good start to making us dynamic in the next few years.

2010-2011:

So my plan for the next 2 weeks to prepare for the 2010-2011 season is:
1) find a way to get that top 5 pick. Our best way to do that is to trade with Tampa and package our 1st to move up 2 or 3 spots. I've heard Gudbranson is a Pronger type of defenseman.
2) find a way to deal with Chicago for Sharp
3) sign John Madden
4) trade Hamrlik for anything

If we decide to keep AK, that would give us:

Cammalleri - Plekanec - AK
Pouliot - Gomez - Gionta
Moen - Moore - Sharp
Pyatt - Madden - Lapierre

Markov - O'Byrne
Spacek - Subban
Gill - Gorges

Halak/Price
Biron/Turco

That going into next year's playoffs would challenge. We may find ourselves back in the ECFs. Having Sharp on the 3rd line would allow us to really push AK knowing his spot is up for grabs if he falters. If we can get Malone out of Tampa with their 1st somehow, we may have all 3 pieces that we need though we could still use toughness on our back end. Maybe something like Halak + AK + prospect for Malone + 1st and SK + draft pick for Sharp.

2011-2012

The year after things get interesting because Markov's contract is up and I believe Gill's is as well (I think Spacek has one more year after that). I'd assume Gudbranson is ready for action and Subban is ready as a top 2 defenseman. A young defensive core of Subban, Gudbranson, Gorges and O'Byrne would be a very steady and cheap.

My plan would be as follows:
1) See how Plekanec performs in the 2010-2011 playoffs. Do we need size down the middle? Did he maintain his performance from the Washington and Pittsburgh series' from 2009-2010? Do we deal him for a bigger player?
2) Did Gomez live up to his contract? There was interest when we traded for him. Do we look if anybody has any interest?
3) Pacioretty and Pouliot would add size to the top 2 lines but would they have progressed enough for regular roles?
4) What is lacking from a core of Subban, Gudbranson, Gorges, Markov and O'Byrne? One mean player with size is missing + a shot blocker.
5) How are Leblanc and Kristo progressing?

I really can see us challenging. The moral of the story is that we need playoff warriors. Smaller guys like Gionta and bigger guys like Hartnell that perform. This needs to be the focus. We aren't that far away with some of the kids we have coming up in the next few years.

I re-iterate. We're only 3 players away from challenging (if AK can pick up his game). If we can fill these out with the right guys, we'll get there. If not, it'll be a long, hard road. Gainey's core assembled last summer leaves a lot of excitement for the future, that's for sure.


Last edited by Ginu: 06-16-2010 at 02:21 PM.
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06-16-2010, 02:14 PM
  #32
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to the OP:

I understand where you're coming from... I just don't have the same opinion as you do. You consider the core to be too weak for our team to compete, I say we have to make the supporting cast stronger.

All in all, we agree on one point: We DO need cap-friendly assets if we want to compete in this league and eventually hope to win the Cup. All the teams who went to the SC Finals had some.

This is why I keep repeating how dealing a goalie is a MUST this summer. We need some cap-friendly, promising assets, whether it is to strengthen the supporting cast like I suggest, or the core, like you do.

Even if we're not talking about highway robberies such as top-6 players making under 1 million, we need some sure values who are going to give us what we expect from them and who are going to be worth their salary.

Andrei Kostitsyn is a guy I can't see being an important part of a contending team. He's just a freaking question mark on two legs.

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06-16-2010, 02:14 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
Markov might have one year, what the hell does that have to do with anything.
Subban being in the big league at such a young age DOESN'T impact our future in any kind of way. He's just being too good for the AHL at such a young age, which is a good thing.
Cammalleri and Gionta are two players who have missed 1/4 of the season last year, and would likely have combined for about 20 goals together had they not been injured, all this without taking Markov's injury into account.
As far as goaltending is concerned, it's part of a team game such as hockey.

You'd be better off on the RDS boards.
No, you're wrong...isn't it obvious? habs suck, Timmins Gauthier, gainey, boivin, Martin, they are all clowns. We are going to finish last place and pick the wrong player with the first overall, we are going to trade Halak and keep Price. I can't believe we're not going to get Lecavalier!

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06-16-2010, 02:15 PM
  #34
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Myers over Markov?

I'd trade Markov for Myers in a mililililminillilinano second.

Huge, Mobile, Smart, Tough, Dominant, YOUNG ...

Come on, Markovian love on these boards is beyond normal. Culprit: Too many years of mediocrity so we make superstars our of stars (Markov), and stars out of good players etc..etc..
Myers might get better, he's not in Markov's world just yet. You people on HFBoards are ridiculous, overhyping players like him.

He's an up and coming d-man such as Boogosian and Marc Staal. Neither of those are at Markov's level just yet, sorry.

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06-16-2010, 02:16 PM
  #35
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No, you're wrong...isn't it obvious? habs suck, Timmins Gauthier, gainey, boivin, Martin, they are all clowns. We are going to finish last place and pick the wrong player with the first overall, we are going to trade Halak and keep Price. I can't believe we're not going to get Lecavalier!
The alarmists sure are back in force since our playoffs run ended eh? Things were so much less... emo going back there...

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06-16-2010, 02:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Cam A Larry View Post
Myers might get better, he's not in Markov's world just yet. You people on HFBoards are ridiculous, overhyping players like him.

He's an up and coming d-man such as Boogosian and Marc Staal. Neither of those are at Markov's level just yet, sorry.
What I don't get is this. potential of players on other teams are always better than the potential of ours and mean much more. Like "Myers has potential to be huge, you'd be crazy not to trade him", but then will follow up with "Carey Price could be good, but potential is subjective and uncertain"

Also..."Guillaume latendresse is slow and inconsistent" followed by "man i wish we had troy Brouwer!"

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06-16-2010, 02:18 PM
  #37
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The alarmists sure are back in force since our playoffs run ended eh? Things were so much less... emo going back there...
Yup, it's never good enough. Even if we win the cup, you would still hear ..."aww it's all luck, we're still mediocre...blah blah blah"

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06-16-2010, 02:20 PM
  #38
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What I don't get is this. potential of players on other teams are always better than the potential of ours and mean much more. Like "Myers has potential to be huge, you'd be crazy not to trade him", but then will follow up with "Carey Price could be good, but potential is subjective and uncertain"

Also..."Guillaume latendresse is slow and inconsistent" followed by "man i wish we had troy Brouwer!"
Grass always looks greener on the neighbor's field I guess...

Still, for some around here, potential > proven value. coolasprICE is a good example of this. He suggested many times already that Subban is a better d-man than Markov RIGHT NOW.

I wonder if some here would deal Cammalleri for the 30th overall selection, just because "OMG WE COULD DRAFT SKINNER, WHO'S GOT THE POTENTIAL TO BE THE NEXT EBERLE! AFTER ALL, EBERLE MIGHT BE THE NEXT CAMMY!"

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06-16-2010, 02:34 PM
  #39
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No I don't feel confident that we can win a cup with that core let alone make it to the finals. I see more the team's successful run this year as failed runs for both Washington and Pittsburgh and I really doubt they'll be able to reproduce next season even with a healthy lineup. We're missing size and aggressiveness on the top 6 and I don't think the pieces surrounding this core can make it look better.

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06-16-2010, 02:36 PM
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12 mill tied into two midget centres... Hah. Maybe if Halak stays and pulls a Halak, but better, we can win.

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06-16-2010, 02:38 PM
  #41
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No I don't feel confident that we can win a cup with that core let alone make it to the finals. I see more the team's successful run this year as failed runs for both Washington and Pittsburgh and I really doubt they'll be able to reproduce next season even with a healthy lineup. We're missing size and aggressiveness on the top 6 and I don't think the pieces surrounding this core can make it look better.
Supporting cast sure hadn't any influence on Anaheim's and Carolina's SC wins...

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06-16-2010, 02:42 PM
  #42
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Grass always looks greener on the neighbor's field I guess...

Still, for some around here, potential > proven value. coolasprICE is a good example of this. He suggested many times already that Subban is a better d-man than Markov RIGHT NOW.

I wonder if some here would deal Cammalleri for the 30th overall selection, just because "OMG WE COULD DRAFT SKINNER, WHO'S GOT THE POTENTIAL TO BE THE NEXT EBERLE! AFTER ALL, EBERLE MIGHT BE THE NEXT CAMMY!"


Markov is a smart 31 yr old player who has shown decline this past season - ya, he's great on the PP, but his outlet passes, decision making on the pinch, and mobility was just not the same. Injuries are a concern.

I view Markov as a star, not a superstar / franchise player. When stars decline, they come very good players until they're just like everyone else. Hopefully he'll rehabilitate perfectly and improve, despite the fact that he'll be starting the season late.

PK Subban has the skills, conditioning, leadership and compete level to compete for the Calder.. Whether or not he's a superstar is still open for debate - but I do think he did an EXCELLENT job in filling-in for Markov ... and yes, I'd take PK over Markov TODAY.

Off topic though.

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06-16-2010, 02:44 PM
  #43
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How unfortunate that after such a nice run and after the team found a way to finally gel given all the changes over the last year and the untimely injuries that some of the fans still be so critical.....they have not been to the top 4 in 17 years, no matter, our team sucked, we got lucky and the other team choked.....

We made it there without Markov? Maybe we will suck more next year and teams will choke more and we will make it to the final!.....Heck, lets hope they all choke so that we can even come home with the cup

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06-16-2010, 02:48 PM
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Markov is a smart 31 yr old player who has shown decline this past season - ya, he's great on the PP, but his outlet passes, decision making on the pinch, and mobility was just not the same. Injuries are a concern.

I view Markov as a star, not a superstar / franchise player. When stars decline, they come very good players until they're just like everyone else. Hopefully he'll rehabilitate perfectly and improve, despite the fact that he'll be starting the season late.

PK Subban has the skills, conditioning, leadership and compete level to compete for the Calder.. Whether or not he's a superstar is still open for debate - but I do think he did an EXCELLENT job in filling-in for Markov ... and yes, I'd take PK over Markov TODAY.

Off topic though.
Given his age and lack of NHL experience, he did a great job....I would not call him Bobby Orr (or Markov for that matter) just yet....but in the circumstances, he did very well indeed....

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06-16-2010, 03:09 PM
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a ton can change in 4 years, and as we saw this post-season, with all-world goaltending and clutch scoring, anything is possible...

that said, I see the structure of our team right now (core group/cap situation/prospect group) as putting us in the "battling for a playoff spot" category over the next few seasons, not the "battling for a cup" group.

of course, if the management group hits a home-run here and there (draft, trade or free agency) in next few seasons, things could turn around quickly.

the moves this summer, and how well or poorly PG manages the assets we have, will go a long way to indicating if we can expect an improved approach to building the roster, or if more of the same is in order.

fingers crossed but not holding my breath...

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06-16-2010, 03:35 PM
  #46
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What I don't get is this. potential of players on other teams are always better than the potential of ours and mean much more. Like "Myers has potential to be huge, you'd be crazy not to trade him", but then will follow up with "Carey Price could be good, but potential is subjective and uncertain"

Also..."Guillaume latendresse is slow and inconsistent" followed by "man i wish we had troy Brouwer!"
There's no general rule about things like this.

Personally, I'd trade Markov for Myers any day of the week. I love Markov, but Myers is going to be special. That huge frame, the way he played this season, at this age. I can't help but feel sky is the limit for this guy. A player that will have a huge impact on his team. What I've seen coupled with his size has really impressed me. A myers-subban combo on D would be insane for us.

The difference between a guy like Myers and Price is that one is coming off a calder like season and is showing incredible promise while the other one has had ups and downs. Both positions are difficult for young players to succeed in, which makes Myers performance in his rookie season all the more impressive. Not to mention I always felt goaltenders were the hardest to evaluate because of the mental component. I'm not in Price's head, and no one is, it's impossible to tell how he'll turn out. Myers is a much much safer bet to be an impact player for the remainder of his career IMO.

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06-16-2010, 03:47 PM
  #47
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There's no general rule about things like this.

Personally, I'd trade Markov for Myers any day of the week. I love Markov, but Myers is going to be special. That huge frame, the way he played this season, at this age. I can't help but feel sky is the limit for this guy. A player that will have a huge impact on his team. What I've seen coupled with his size has really impressed me. A myers-subban combo on D would be insane for us.

The difference between a guy like Myers and Price is that one is coming off a calder like season and is showing incredible promise while the other one has had ups and downs. Both positions are difficult for young players to succeed in, which makes Myers performance in his rookie season all the more impressive. Not to mention I always felt goaltenders were the hardest to evaluate because of the mental component. I'm not in Price's head, and no one is, it's impossible to tell how he'll turn out. Myers is a much much safer bet to be an impact player for the remainder of his career IMO.
Yes, you are right...but last year, Green was the talk of the town....and well, after a so so year, no one is talking much about Green anymore......one year does not make a career....especially a rookie year......Markov is a proven commodity...I would hold on to him in this circumstance.....but I may find out later that I was wrong....that goes with making decisions....

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06-16-2010, 03:50 PM
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Yes, you are right...but last year, Green was the talk of the town....and well, after a so so year, no one is talking much about Green anymore......one year does not make a career....especially a rookie year......Markov is a proven commodity...I would hold on to him in this circumstance.....but I may find out later that I was wrong....that goes with making decisions....
decision making or bias? Perhaps your opinion is one of a fan.

I'll pay you 7 figures to build a winner perhaps you'll have a change of heart.

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06-16-2010, 03:52 PM
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decision making or bias? Perhaps your opinion is one of a fan.

I'll pay you 7 figures to build a winner perhaps you'll have a change of heart.
Well, you are going purely on assumptions that he will be better......while I stick to what is already a star....and fitting perfectly well in our system......

I dont need to be paid to understand the math and risk analysis....either can be right as we are both doing an analysis via our own bias......is that not what making a determination is all about?

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06-16-2010, 03:58 PM
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Yes, you are right...but last year, Green was the talk of the town....and well, after a so so year, no one is talking much about Green anymore......one year does not make a career....especially a rookie year......Markov is a proven commodity...I would hold on to him in this circumstance.....but I may find out later that I was wrong....that goes with making decisions....
I didn't feel this way about Green. No offense, but I don't really care what the general opinion about players are.

I never got the feeling Green would be a special player. I knew he was putting up points but what I've seen never awed me. Not like Myers.

And the packages are completely different here. Myers is a giant with some offensive skills. Who doesn't want a guy this big and talented on their blueline ? It's really two different guys and I don't remember ever being wowed with Green like I am with Myers.

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